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Posted by: 48erhater ( )
Date: February 19, 2012 03:22PM

I don't want kids. I have no desire and yet every mormon frowns upon people who don't want kids.

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Posted by: brigantia ( )
Date: February 19, 2012 03:36PM

They frown about everything because they are taught to judge. Maybe they're jealous because you have the courage to draw a line and live your own life.

We are all who we are and it is nobody's business but ours.


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Posted by: summer ( )
Date: February 19, 2012 03:46PM

There are advantages and disadvantages, just as there are with every other choice in life. It's a big world and there are a lot of different ways to live. "One size fits all" is a very narrow-minded point of view.

No one else gets to define my happiness.

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Posted by: freeman ( )
Date: February 19, 2012 05:18PM

Whatever makes you happy.

But my kids make me happy, and I couldn't imagine a happiness as intense without them.

Then again, I often wish I didn't have the strings attached to home. So I guess there are pros and cons to all lifestyles.

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Posted by: CA girl ( )
Date: February 19, 2012 05:28PM

If you don't have kids, and you don't want kids, the best thing you can do is NOT have kids. Because one of the worst things you can do to a child is not want it. Whether that is manifested in indifference, abuse, overly-critical parenting because of hidden resentment - or any one of a million other things that signify to a child they are unwanted, it doesn't matter. They are all just different degrees of the same hurt.

I had an aunt who married my uncle after his divorce and helped him raise his two teenagers. She was 25 when she married him and decided those two stepkids were enough. She had trouble finding a doctor who would tie her tubes at such a young age but she was sure and she's never regretted it. I always admired her for knowing what was right for her and not bringing kids into this world out of obligation or indifference or because society said she had to. The only reason to have kids is that you really, really want kids that you want to spend your time actually parenting.

Also, you should not have kids because the church tell you it's your duty to have kids and then leave them to raise each other while you service the church. The church teaches that is some sort of virtue but the truth is, that's worse than not having kids at all - having kids you can't handle and neglect while patting yourself on the back because you are so virtuous. But I know you already know that last paragraph :)

Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 02/19/2012 05:29PM by CA girl.

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Posted by: Rebeckah ( )
Date: February 19, 2012 08:04PM

She had to convince her doctor to tie her tubes too but she's never regretted that decision. Thanks, Planned Parenthood! :)

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Posted by: Outcast ( )
Date: February 19, 2012 07:53PM

I was committed to living the life of a bachelor for many years. Then one day at age 34 I started noticing how cute kids were and I decided I wanted to become a dad. Two years later, I married a cute Mormon Lamanite and we had a daughter 10 months after our wedding. She's the apple of my eye, but for whatever reason, I wasn't interested in being a dad til it just hit one day. I suppose we have parental hormones.

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Posted by: CA girl ( )
Date: February 19, 2012 08:10PM

My desire to be a good Mormon mommy was more academic than heartfelt until one day on my mission, I saw the cutest 9 month old baby girl in Sacrament meeting. I fell in love with her and held her whenever her mom would let me. We'd go to this family's house for dinner every other week and little Cristina had me wrapped around her finger every time. Her parents were amused but probably grateful for the break. After that, I wanted children on a heartfelt, gut level.

Fast forward half a dozen years and my own little baby girl was born. Guess who she looked exactly like? Yep, she and Cristina could have been twins with their matching eye color and brown, curly hair. In fact, once I showed my husband this cute picture of his daughter, which he admired. Then I told him it was Cristina from my mission. He was shocked at how identical they looked.

Coincidence? Or something more? (cue Twilight Zone music... lol)

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Posted by: Tristan-Powerslave ( )
Date: February 19, 2012 08:36PM

I went through trauma during my childhood & teenage years where do many girls I knew got pregnant & had children before they were 18. Yes, for me is was traumatic because those girls included an older sister & best friends. All I could think was 'Don't get pregnant, don't get pregnant.' I didn't have much fun during my teenage years or my 20s, at all, for various reasons. My reasons for not having children had absolutely nothing to do about children putting a 'cramp in my style'. I knew I would be a horrible parent, & could never afford them. When I turned 27, I was thankful that I didn't have children. Now, at 36, I still can't afford them, but I am helping to raise my nephews, & I am there for them emotionally, & doing an OK job.

The other thing was that many of these girls, including my sister, we're trying to escape from bad home lives. They thought a guy & a baby were the answer. I knew it wasn't, & still isn't. I didn't want to end up a cliche or a statistic. I wanted my own life. on my own terms.

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Posted by: Tristan-Powerslave ( )
Date: February 19, 2012 08:39PM

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Posted by: Johnny Canuck ( )
Date: February 19, 2012 08:54PM

Never wanted kids and never wanted to be married. Read an article on this today and will try to post.

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Posted by: Johnny Canuck ( )
Date: February 20, 2012 11:28AM

Who needs marriage? The joys of living alone
zosia bielski
From Friday's Globe and Mail
Published Thursday, Feb. 16, 2012 4:16PM EST
Last updated Friday, Feb. 17, 2012 4:14PM EST


Decrease text size Increase text size

Click Here

Exile, writes Eric Klinenberg in Going Solo: The Extraordinary Rise and Surprising Appeal of Living Alone, used to rank among the most severe forms of punishment, surpassed only by execution.

Increasingly, living alone is a perk of those who can afford it: “It allows us to do what we want, when we want, on our own terms,” writes the author, a sociology professor at New York University who interviewed 300 singletons for the book.
More related to this story

The perils and pleasures of dining alone
Loneliness is a social disease, study finds
When two’s a crowd

Do you live alone?

Yes, and I love it
Yes, and I hate it
No, but I wish I did
No, and I'm glad

Results & past polls

“The collective project of living alone grew out of the culture of modern cities, not the monastic or transcendental traditions,” writes Mr. Klinenberg, pointing to “adult playgrounds” like gyms, bars and coffee shops that let urbanites mingle, even as they enjoy their own spaces.

Today, 31 million people live alone in the United States – that’s 28 per cent of all households, compared to just 9 per cent in 1950. The “remarkable social experiment” of going solo now helps define modern culture, argues the author, who spoke to The Globe and Mail from New York.

What’s the difference between “singletons” as you call them, and singles?

Singles are people who are not married. In the United States, it’s about 49 per cent of the population now. Singletons, as I define them, are people who live alone – 32.7 million according to the latest census estimates. They account for about 28 per cent of American households. We have to make really clear distinctions between living alone and being alone, and also between living alone and being lonely. They’re very different kinds of things.

“Solitude can be experienced alone or with others”: You’re quoting Sasha Cagen, founder of Quirkyalones, a movement that advocates for people who enjoy being single.

That’s right. Many people that we interviewed said there was nothing more lonely than living with the wrong person.

Loneliness expert John Cacioppo talks about that too, the lack of time for oneself in “harried marriages.”

There’s a concept that sociologists are using more these days called the “greedy marriage.” Marriages can be really good for you, but the relationship plus the domestic responsibilities that often come with it can also pull you away from other things. I say this as a guy who’s married with two young children. I’m not against marriage and I’m not advocating living alone. What I’m trying to do is understand this incredible social change, how it happened and what it means for us.

You argue that we use wealth to “separate from each other” in solo living arrangements, and you point to an intensifying “cult of the individual.”

It used to be the case that you really had to justify to yourself and to people around you why you wanted to get divorced. Today, in many communities, if you’re married and it’s not going well you have to justify staying in it. People of my generation and younger grew up in the throes of the divorce revolution.

A lot of the younger people I spoke to said they didn’t feel like they’d be capable, or that it would be irresponsible of them to get married before they really knew they could take care of themselves. I’m not saying people want to be alone or be isolated. They want to go out, meet new people and have sex. They just don’t want to live with the wrong people.

What do you say to critics who see the trend as a threat to family values, who suggest that it makes us self-absorbed?

The fact that people live alone for long stretches of their lives and then have successful marriages when they’re older suggests that is not a compelling argument. The fact that people who live alone are more likely to volunteer in civic organizations really contradicts that message. The fact that people living alone are more likely to spend time with friends and neighbours should trouble this idea that singletons are selfish.

Who suffers more of the stigma: men or women? The spinster? The cat lady?

Yes, women get more of the stigma. A particularly difficult moment is when they reach their mid-30s to early 40s and have to make decisions about whether they’d like to have biological children. People see friends and family members who project onto them their own anxiety about their situation. It’s very unusual for men to express real concern about waiting too long before getting married.

You point out that living alone is a “cyclical condition, not a permanent one.”

No one’s making a vow to stay single. They’re moving in and out of different conditions.

Yet when Ms. Cagen announced that she was ready for a partner, some Quirkyalones accused her of abandoning the cause.

I don’t think she should have to be committed to being single or living alone for the rest of her life. She’s dealing with the fact that there is stigma. In a 1957 study, 80 per cent of the Americans surveyed by a University of Michigan psychologist said that adults who wanted to stay unmarried were either sick, neurotic or immoral. Obviously our attitudes have changed quite a lot since then, but there’s still some stigma.

The fastest-growing demographic for solo living is 18 to 34, you write. What about these boomerang kids who can’t afford to live on their own, moving back in with mom and dad?

In the last couple of years, there has been a slowing and a slight downtick, but it’s surprisingly low: It went from 12 per cent of all young adults living alone to 11 per cent. In 1950, about 1 per cent of young adults had places of their own.

You write that Thoreau’s mom swung by Walden Pond regularly with dinner.

Certainly different than the mythology, isn’t it?

We have this immense anxiety about the fate of family members who live unaccompanied. What happens when all those singletons get old and infirm, with family far away?

We have really failed to prepare for this incredible social change and I worry about the fate of people who are not just alone but isolated. We’re doing much less for them than we should be. I wish we had invested more in places that allow older people to live alone but also be connected to others. The book ends in Stockholm, which does a much better job of that.

Sixty per cent of people in Stockholm live alone. You write about one residence there called Collective House, conceived in the 1930s by planners and feminists for working women living alone, with daycare, laundry service and a restaurant in the building.

There were also pneumatic tubes inside the building that allow the kitchen to shoot individual meals up to residents. If they want to stay home, they can. The idea was that, as a society, they’d support people who want to live alone.

You also mention a newer communal residence for people over 40 whose “needs are no longer dictated by family and children.” Sounds like a premature retirement home.

It’s a way of preventing people from moving into these geriatric ghettos, which are really undesirable. This is a place that allows people to have individual apartments, but also there’s a common kitchen and people have to volunteer to cook a few days every month. There are exercise classes, a garden, a library and movie nights.

In New York, there used to be hotels like Barbizon that were just for young women moving into the city. That has disappeared. In Amsterdam today there’s one collective housing project that [New York writer] Kate Bolick talks about where women can move in, so long as they’re between the ages of 35 and 65.

The idea is that people can provide each other with community, companionship and support when they need it. It won’t turn into a singles’ party scene or a place where people go to die.

Percentages of Canadians (aged 15 and older) who lived alone.

2006: 11 per cent

2001: 10 per cent

1951: 2.6 per cent

By sex (2006)





By Province (2006)

Alberta: 9 per cent

British Columbia: 11 per cent

Manitoba: 11 per cent

New Brunswick: 10 per cent

Newfoundland and Labrador: 8 per cent

Northwest Territories: 7.5 per cent

Nova Scotia: 11 per cent

Nunavut: 5 per cent

Ontario: 9 per cent

Prince Edward Island: 10 per cent

Quebec: 13 per cent

Saskatchewan: 12 per cent

Yukon Territory: 13 per cent

Source: Statistics Canada

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Posted by: honestone ( )
Date: February 19, 2012 09:00PM

Please don't have kids if you don't want them. I teach elem school and we see too often parents who obviously don't want their kids. They do NOTHING to help them at home to improve their skills. WE ask and ask for the extra practice at home to no avail. All children deserve caring parents.

Enjoy YOUR kind of life. And let those who want kids be responsible and give all the care those kids need while living in their home. What a better world it would be if this was the case.

Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 02/19/2012 11:14PM by honestone.

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Posted by: adoylelb ( )
Date: February 19, 2012 09:09PM

My decision not to have children is something I don't regret, and I don't care that TSCC considers me selfish. In fact, I have the opposite opinion, as I think it's selfish to have unwanted children because of religious or cultural reasons. There's a Mormon mommy blog that is disturbing because the author had a child she didn't really want, after manipulating someone who wasn't even attracted to her to marry her, only because she got the message that she was only good as a broodmare.

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Posted by: WinksWinks ( )
Date: February 19, 2012 10:25PM

Think about this... If you had a kid, or more, those same TBMs would frown on the way you raise them. There will always be something they frown on.
Live your life for yourself, not them or anyone else.
TBMs in particular LIVE to disapprove of others.

What do YOU approve of for yourself? That is the only thing that matters.

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Posted by: SusieQ#1 ( )
Date: February 19, 2012 10:55PM

OK. It's your life. Life it on your terms. Who cares what other people think? That's about them, not you.

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Posted by: yin ( )
Date: February 20, 2012 01:13AM

Even as a happy mother of one, I still have moments when I greatly envy the childless. But don't ever let anyone devalue you because you don't have children.

I sometimes feel like I devalue the own work I do in my home, because to me, raising a daughter is important, but not life-changing important work that I want to do. My daughter is a part of my life, and being her mother is a part of my role in life, but I don't define her by it. She is the star of her own life, just like I am the star of mine.

I have moments EVERY SINGLE DAY where I daydream about my old life before she came along. Of course, I love my daughter, I want her, I want to be her mother, and I take very good care of her: she's happy, healthy, and smart. But Jesus, parenting is hard. To be fair, I am a single parent, and she was definitely NOT planned, so it's particularly wearing for me. But it's just hard.

For everyone out there devaluing the childless for YOUR contributions to family and society, there are people who devalue parents. The grass is always greener on the other side. There are enough parents and children in this world. We need more people who are strong in their convictions and living for themselves first and foremost.

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Posted by: cl2 ( )
Date: February 20, 2012 11:50AM

I think having children is the most selfish act you can perform. Why do people have children?

I've watched what my children have been through and wonder why I would bring an innocent victim into this wonderful world.

I love my kids with all my heart and would do anything for them. They were my reason for staying alive for a long time and my reason for finding purpose in life.

All I wanted was to be married and have kids. I had worked for 8 years at a job I loved when I had my kids. I was disillusioned. And like yin says--it is without a doubt the hardest job I've ever done (and I did it as a single mother for about 10 years, too).

I see too many parents who think that their child owes them something. My kids were always #1 and they've always known it. I have never wanted grandkids because I just don't see a reason for bringing more children into this world. I don't see the world as an extremely attractive place to bring an innocent child into.

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Posted by: Stray Mutt ( )
Date: February 20, 2012 12:11PM

To be more exact, I started out having zero connection to the parenthood idea. My reaction to all that talk of someday being a father was, "Eh, why?" By my teens I knew for certain it wasn't for me. When people I knew announced they were going to have a baby, my gut reactions was always, "Oh, that's too bad. Contraception failed?" I'm about to turn 60 and I've never regretted being childless.

Of course, not being on the quest to bless the world with copies of myself, it made dating LDS women rather pointless. It made the main appeal of the church -- Forever Families -- pointless, too. And, doctrinally, it limited any possible exaltation I might seek. Eternal increase? I don't even want transitory increase. Man, imagine me trying to fit in during the polygamy years.

"Brother Mutt, why is it you have no seed even though you have four wives?"

"Just lucky, I guess."

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