It doesn't matter what the situation is, who they are or who they're with, or what the topic of conversation is, if a Mormon brings up their religion in your company, just ask them this one simple question,

"Do you believe it is okay for a man to marry a woman if she's already married to somebody else?"

"Why, of course not!"

"I've read on the Mormons own geneological website, familysearch.org that both Joseph Smith and Brigham Young married women who were already married to somebody else, what does God have to say about that in your scriptures? Specifically D&C132:61?"

Not familiar with that one? He says it's adultery and unjustifiable and he'll destroy whoever practices it. So you're right, it's wrong, but how do you reconcile that with your prophet's marriages to women who were already married to other men?

You can't.
Yet you still believe?
Knowing that both Joseph Smith and Brigham Young were adulterers, you still believe in the institution they established?
You still believe that Joseph and Emma based their marriage on the gospel of Jesus Christ, just like it says on josephsmith.net?
So are you going to tell your children the truth about Joseph's Myth?
Or are you going to lie to them and propagate a bogus myth just because you were lied to, without question?

Like Socrates said, "The unexamined life is not worth living."

Their only possible response will be, "Gotta go."

Because you'll trigger their fight or flight instinct. Since they can't fight, they flee, all that painful CogDis you create by pointing out their leaders violted not only common human decency, not only the law of the land, not only the 10 commandments, but even the 'revelation' Joseph Smith claimed to have received hot off the lips of God, while he was screwing women who were other men's wives.

Is there a more clear violation by a prophet?

Anybody with any integrity at all would resign from an institution they couldn't defend.
An organization that still maintained D&C 132 as "the word of God" when they knew it was just a thinly veiled, lame excuse for adultery, which even Emma never bought, eve though she was threatened with divine destruction if she refused. She refused to accept that Joseph got God's permission to screw other women why should anybody else?

I appreciate that my formerly TBM wife quit when she found out Joseph Smith cheated on his wife with other men's wives. She had integrity. Her Mother on the other hand doesn't. She still maintains her manipulative belief in Joseph's Myth, even after having to admit that he was "Going straight to hell if he married other men's wives." which he did.

Some people have more integrity than others. But like Emmerson said, "Integrity is after all, the only thing that is sacred."

Joseph's Myth has zero integrity. Anybody who thinks he does, after realizing their beliefs are indefensible, has no integrity.

I agree that this fact alone should have Mormons dropping the church like crazy. I like the way you started that conversation and then asked the question once they agree it is wrong. They should be speechless....no answer is acceptable. Fleeing is surely what many would do, but hopefully it will make them think.

I wish somebody, anybody would have disclosed that important little tidbit of info to me when I was a Mormon. I never would have had anything to do with propagating Joseph's Myth, had I known it was bogus.

sun doesn't get its energy from Kolob.

TBM's say we made that up.

And if we didn't, it's from a prophet who has been superseded. And if it isn't, it isn't necessary for your salvation. Anyway, all I can do is work on my own sins and shortcomings and the church helps make me a better person.

Anything wrong with that, Mr. Apostate?

Anagrammy the Devil's Advocate

My TBM wife stated it was "just a sealing" and a "spiritual thing". Everyone will one day understand why the prophets did things that dont make sense. She no longer agrgues or challenegs any negative fact I tel her now though.

The fact that Brigham Young fathered a child with Henry Jacob's wife, Zina, after BY send HJ to England on a mission kind of blows holes in that cliche, huh?

When I pointed out the fact that Joseph Smith married women who were married to other men, to my TBM wife, she said, "That's it. I'm done." and she was, 10 years ago.

Now whenever her Nazi TBM Mom launches into Morgboat testimony bearing mode she just says, "Yeah, I know Mom, but Joseph's Myth had sex with other men's wives."

The first time I heard her say that to her Mom over the phone I asked her, "What did you Mom have to say to that?"

She said, "Nothing. She doesn't have any answers. None of them do."

She's right.

I like your wife and I don't even know her. What a brain she has! Gets a piece of info and actually does the right thing with it. Amazing.

How does that make it okay? I hate that freaking argument. So he may not have had sex with them. He still took OTHER MEN'S WIVES and/or eligible women and claimed the label "wife" on them. No one gives a crap if you aren't having sex with your ONE wife in this day and age, it just matters that you married them, period.

There is no law that allows a man to marry another man's wife, not the law of the land, not the 10 commandments, not the law of the priesthood. The law is the the law. You don't just work around it by saying it was for "spiritual" or 'dynastic' purposes or "it was just a sealing". Where does that appear in any law, man's or God's?
It doesn't.
I guess if my wife came up with that excuse I'd say, so if I screwed another man's wife behind your back you wouldn't have any problem with that as long as it was for 'spiritual purposes'? I guess that's the green light, right?
No, that loophole only applies to Mormon royalty, like Joseph's Myth and Brigham Young.
We KNOW Brigham Young had sex with other men's wives, like Zina Huntington Jacobs, since he fathered a child with her, while her husband, Henry was on a mission in England. How is that excusable? It's not. Kinda immoral to make up excuses for adultery, isn't it?

"Well, nobody is perfect. God used imperfect men to restore the gospel!" argument. You could give it a go, but prepare to be shot down. The church prepares their missionaries with just about any conceivable argument they will encounter.

I was a missionary. Nobody ever breathed a word about Joseph's multiple wives, much less the fact that he married other men's wives, much less the fact that Brigham Young sired children with other men's wives, much less the fact that all of those things are strictly outlawed by every scriptures of Judeo Christianity and Mormonism.
I wish somebody had mentioned that FACT to me in the MTC, I would have RUN, not walked out.
Anybody with an iota of integrity would say what my wife said when I broke it all down for her from In Sacred Loneliness, D&C 132 and Insider's View of Sacred Loneliness.
Bottom line it's okay for the king/mayor/general/president/prophet to do it, but if any lowley pawn even looks upon a woman with lust has committed adultery in his heart.
Kind of hypocritical don'tcha think?

When you knocked on a person's door and they told you about these "men" marrying other men's wives would it have meant anything at all to you as a missionary?? If not at the time, once done with the 2 yrs. would you have investigated?

It brings up a good question... What can we nevermos do to help the Mormon missionaries-what can we do to enlighten them?What would actually help them?

Yup, you'll get the old "loose dynastic ties" apologist rigamarol after they get over the initial shock that it really is true, and cog-dis' won't kick in even when you bring up the reason for polygamy is "to raise righteous seed" doctrinal evidence.

"La la la la la la lal la I can't hear you....."

Oh great, it was for "dynastic purposes" my how noble that sounds.
So it's okay to screw other men's wives as long as it's for dynastic purposes?
Who wrote that law, some swinger?
And how does that supersede the law of the land and the 10 commandments, that command us to not covet other men's wives and D&C 132, where God defines that as adultry?
If you believe that then would you let some dude marry (screw and sire children with) your wife as long as it's strictly for 'dynastic purposes'?
Why not? You don't have a problem with it, right?
Oh it's only okay for Joseph Smith and Brigham Young did it?
Why's that? Because they had the authority? What if somebody else claimed all the authority he needed to screw your wife, would you let him? Why not?
You've got no problem with it, right?

Their own church records prove IT DID HAPPEN! So, it would help, not hurt, the argument if they deny it. Then you show them Familysearch. Org, to prove you aren't lying, but the church is!

This is why the well trained morgbot doesn't deny it.

I personally like the "would you let thomas s. monson marry you 14 year old daughter?". I think in today's society blatant pedophilia garners greater disgust that ole fashioned wife swapping.

so does this mean its OK to refer to MORmON founder Joe Smith as "PErvert Joe" ?

This topic hits the nail on the head.. The strange thing that typical mormon response is to flee from answering the question and look apon you with discust that you could resist their charming cushy Kristma, fixed firm in the holy spirit of promise that bares witness to them after all the facts presented that Joesph smith still was the true prophet.

Recently 3 missionaries I had read out the facts of the fabrication story of the first vision, how the church made it sensational from the 1838 version of two personages to launch what is today modern mormonism fixed apon that version when the original that was not 1820 but 1824, recorded in diary, journals in historic records of its people including joesph smiths own mother, and later his own wife Emma that got hold of her husbands diaries that he had revealed only one personage appeared......

Bland stares is all I got. A testimony of the spirt is all I got and when I said what if the church is a big lie and acccording to these facts covered up in lds historic archives
in a vault in saltlake city, yet internet has made it public by some who worked in that vault now left the church has disclosed these facts ashamed of mormonism, one of them just said he still would follow Joesph Smith to the end as it gave him a decent life, meaning integrety, a culture worth living up to.
Yet above are comments that speak of NO INTEGRETY Joesph Smith and Brigham young were adultrers. The very D&C say that it is wicked to marry another mans wife, and yet a sealing up to them
was justified sex or not sex but in this case Brigham had a child to a civally married woman....

The world war 2 nazi flags were advocated by the presedency back then to fly high on mormon chappels in germany in support to a corrupt govenment that was believed to be right at the time and the law of the land. Yet an artical of faith states not to support corrupt govenments, yet upholding the law at the same time is a complete contradiction. Pologamy would of continued had it not been the law of the land and every mormon who practised it would be imprissoned....

Mormonism is about as crazy as a nazi bull on heat.
I personally and originally was terminated from attending church over exposing deception as ephesians of the bibles says
we should do against racsim that affected my middle eastern wife in marrige that members of the church pertitioned to have her deported. I was considered an apostate, but the racists continued to have more respect than me and thrived in the gospel tho the only act of honesty was that this person never took out temple endowments or was ever sealed to his wife because he knows the church is nothing more than a nazi superiour empire in the sense that it discriminates and shuns the weak, originally the african negro, etc and claimed that the saints of the most high god were word of wisdom gladiators in a fight against the puny and sexually corrupt... Yet the topic of adultray by mormon founder prophets has come up as another nail in the coffin of the terrible brutal history of the church as much as murder in the mountain masecue of the danites killing weak and apostate mormons, where by brigham young never blinked an eye saying do as you please, they are like dirt under his feet, tho the argument goes brigham even gave the command to kill apostates is another story...

Yet mormons are taught never to deny the spirit, nor to question the facts as that is on the road to apostasy.
What fear and guilt, entrapped in a relegion with once up to 1990 temple death threat oaths now removed, and yet some today refused to even believe it was part of the practise and deny even these facts.....

The bible says not to trust in feelings but apon the very word of god that is our conviction and not to trust in another angel preaching another message besides the bible the word or let that people and church be accursed and there is no light in them..

The spirit of mormonism is like some alien mind take over of humans, a hypnotism beond belief... Yet for the sake of trying to get back and saving my marrige destroyed by racists and gossip/backbiting and leaders, including bishops and stake presidents that all went against me for revealing the facts, even so I did it out of fear and wanting protection, they swepted it under the carpet and gave me warning to shut my mouth and protect the image of the church. Obviously the image of the church is more important to the church than its people.
Obviously spending billions on saltlake city head quauters shopping malls and museum displays for all the world to see how great and powerful is the vactican mormon empire is, where that money could help the poor.but thats the way it goes. Success of a relegious organization does not mean its the truth. Only a few may have discovered the real jesus, the real truth that it is not our own stinking filthy rags of rightousness that saves us but by surrending and entering into christ rightousness and calling in christ name and by his blood even to rebuke the false light.....Tho who can argue with the priesthood restored even tho it preaches exalation beond salvation, another path another angel, yet the reward is just to good to refuse...

Even tho I am allowed only to attend sacrament It brings me closer to my wife, tho there are other churches I could take to spirit filled but she is a true devoted lds tho she does sympathise to my side of the story and questions the facts but believes no matter what church as long as moral all go to heaven..

The truth is, if mormonism is not true the people and the church is accursed and out of great tribulation many must come out of it and this is a recovery site for such process...

bless you all... I will endure a personal relationship with jesus and I will respect the good people in all churches and try not to attack good integrity of good moral people. However its seems some of the people in the church had more integrity than adultrous founding prophets who are totally against pologamy and would leave the church tommorow if it came back

larry.

Wow...they told you to keep your mouth shut. Well, it appears you will during the time with your wife in sacrament but elsewhere - NO. I commend you. You have it all right. You are one who can bring light into darkness. I wish you all the best as you carry on in a not so great situation. Glad you understand where your loyalty should be as a Christian.

Exactly, his_dudeness, Mrs. Estzerhaus and anagrammy. They don't even hear that you've quoted from their own source. To them, there must be an explanation. There has to be, because they KNOW the Church is true. So no matter what evidence is right in their faces, there's a mistake somewhere, and we're lying to them, or at the very least, we're confused and lost.

Their God can never lose, because their formula = the Church is true.

So they work on the premise that X = the Church is true. The equation is then worked out to make sure that the equation always reaches the correct answer, no matter how much twisting and manipulating they have to do to make that formula work.

This thread would be a great bit on SNL.

Ana

That's the problem. You can't help someone who doesn't want to be helped. They can't be enlightened until they're open to the idea. Otherwise, they're closed shut. As tightly as possible, to keep the truth out. They have the truth and you can't tell them otherwise.

That's not been my experience.
The advantage we have is thst we've got the truth on our side and we can back it up using purely LDS sorces. They cant dismiss the fact that their first two prophets were adulterers as "anti-Mormom lies authored by Satan himself" if all the evidence is produced by their own gd church and even their most highly paid apologists cant argue with the facts of the matter. Keep repeating the question until they answer, "What does your God havr to say about men marrying other men's wives, like both Joseph's Myth and Bring'em Young did?"
Then provide the sources of your information. Works every time. No mormon can answer that question honestly and ive asked a lot of them on the internet. Mainly in comment zections if the NYT, WaPost, NPR, HuffPost, LA Times, I have yet to lose an argument with a mormon over religion. They dont have a leg to stand on. And they really look immmoral for making lame excuses for worshipping a pedophile/ adultere like Joseph's Myth. Not hard to paint them like the REAL Mormons in TX who are erecting an idol to their pedophile Profit, Warren Jeffs, who embodies and exemplifies Josephs Myth

TBM's have coping mechanisms that spring into action when something difficult to understand arises. For example: When I was on my way out of the church, I asked my TBM, BIC six generations parents if they knew Jo Smith looked at a rock in a hat to translate the BoM. I thought my mom would choke on her herbal tea she was trying to swallow. Her immediate response was, "Come on now, where did you hear that? What website said that?" She was making weird grunting sounds in her throat. I couldn't believe that neither one of them had heard that little nugget of history before. I told her I read it on the church's own website in a talk that Russell M. Nelson gave:

http://lds.org/ldsorg/v/index.jsp?vgnextoid=2354fccf2b7db010VgnVCM1000004d82620aRCRD&locale=0&sourceId=05169209df38b010VgnVCM1000004d82620a____&hideNav

She wanted the link so I emailed it to her and a short while later we talked on the phone and she had this to say: "The spirit uses different mediums to communicate with us and apparently this was the method necessary to communicate with Joseph. I don't have a problem with it."
I asked if she had a problem with the church continuing to portray the wrong image of Joseph translating and she said, "No, investigators to the church would be able to accept a softer image of Joseph rather than one that requires seasoned faith. It's better that people join the church and learn to accept the deeper doctrine with time."

I replied, "Clearly we don't see eye to eye on what's right and wrong. I believe in the truth and thought I had it with the church. You believe in bait and switch and that it's ok to trick people into the church." She didn't like that response. Interestingly enough, my father was in on the entire conversation, read Nelson's talk, but kept silent through the whole thing. I would have loved to hear what he was thinking, maybe someday I will.

I've deprogrammed 7 brainwashed cult members in my family, including myself And I got my Nazi TBMMIL to admit "Joseph's Myth is going straight to hell if that's true!", that he 'married other men's wives. I assured her it was and if zhe didnt believe me I'd be happy to supply her with my sources, which were 100% Mormon. She declined. Honestly I couldnt live with myself, knowing that i was propogating a really bogus, dishonest myth, for what? Membership in a really lame, sexist, racist, homophobic Country Club with no bar, a lame pool you get to use once, when you turn 8, waaaaaay too many mandatory meetings w/ a mandatory membership dues of 10% of your income? Assigned friends who will drop you like a hot potato if you wake up tonreality?
Not my kind of way to live life.
Yeah you're right they have coping mechanisms, like the fight ir flight instinct, the herding instinct.
Like Carl Sagan said,"Religion is merely a community of people who gather together on a regular basis to reassure each kther that its ok to continue subscribing to absurdities, but for me Ive found it best to see the workd the way it actually exists, rather than persist in delusion, no matter how comforting that may seem."
So the trick to deprogramming a brainwashed cult member is to use the Socratic Method and Aristotles rhetorical appeals, Ethos, Pathos and Logos. Appeal to their ethics or moral character, empathize with them and get them to reciprocate, and most importantly reason with them, use logic to lead them out of Plato's cave of shadows, out into the full spectrum of the broad light of day, which is the best antiseptic.

josephsmyth Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Their only possible response will be, "Gotta go."


No, their standard answer will always be to bear their testimony.

Like my wife would say to her Testimonkey bearing Mom,
"Yeah I know Mom that's great for you, but Joseph Smith had sex with his follower's wives and teenage daughters. That's not ok with me."

I almost fell out of my chair laughing the first time I heard her say that over the phone, to her Nazi TBM bitch from hell Mom, who's married to an obese couch potato who thinks he's God's gift to humanity because he's a MORmON Bishop. I asked her what her mom's response was and she said, "Oh nothing. They have no answer for that. None of them do."

Holy shit. She didn't beat around the bush like I had with my evil MIL. When I told her that JS had sex with his followers wives and teenage daughters she called me a GD liar. I told her I found it in church records and in a book I'd be glad to lend her, written by a Mormon History Professor and well documented with verifiable records.

Then she said, "I don't care if Joseph Smith stood on his head and stacked BB's! Whatever he did was between him and God. Who the hell are you to judge HIM!!!"

"Uh somebody who hasn't cheated on his wife, by making up a lame story about an angel with a flaming sword who commanded me to violate every law ever written governing marriage, including the one I got straight from God himself."

obedientdumbassayswhat?

But they were still men! God cannot wait for perfect vessels to do His work, right?

Except the whole premise of the Restoration is that God's church was lost through the Great Apostasy.

Even if Joseph was inspired at some point, he apostasized and built a church around his sexual deviance.

That's where the Godhead came to be....Joseph needed Hod to be a man, because if he is then he is our model and we need polygamy to sire spirit children.

The temple, celestial marriage, everything revolves around manipulating women and the men who would otherwise protect them.

The evolution of the God of Joseph's Myth, is described perfectly in the differing accounts of the First Vision. From a vague "Lord" (singular) in the first version, to a more personal God and Jesus as two individuals in the final, official version.

koriwhore Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> The evolution of the God of Joseph's Myth, is
> described perfectly in the differing accounts of
> the First Vision. From a vague "Lord" (singular)
> in the first version, to a more personal God and
> Jesus as two individuals in the final, official
> version.

That's what I was thinking about. And the BoM was also changed to reflect that. BY tried to flesh it all out with Adam-God but the main of the church was not having it.

Do you believe it's okay for a man to "marry" another man?