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Posted by: steve benson ( )
Date: February 16, 2012 12:37PM

My personal friend, national director of the Anti-Defamation League of B'nai B'rith Abraham Foxman, explains what must be done to stop this ghoulish Mormon practice of dead-dunking not only Jews but other non-Mormons, as well:

1) desist from further necro-dunking of Holocaust Jewish victims; and

2) abandon the Mormon doctrine of necro-dunking altogether.

"Abraham Foxman, the Anti-Defamation League’s National Director and a Holocaust survivor, explained in a statement why it’s important to stop the practice, USA Today reported. 'Holocaust victims died precisely because they were Jewish,' he said. 'Listing Jews as 'Christian’ on one of the most researched genealogical sites in the world inadvertently aids and abets denial of the Holocaust.'”

(“Mormon church leaders apologize for baptizing Jewish dead,”at: http://www.globalpost.com/dispatch/news/regions/americas/united-states/120214/mormon-church-apologize-posthumous-baptism-jews-wiesel-romney)


"'A lot more needs to be done by the LDS Church to educate its membership about its policy prohibiting names of Holocaust victims to be offered for posthumous baptism,' Foxman continued. 'Perhaps the ultimate solution would be for the church to revisit its theological position on posthumously baptizing Jews and believers outside the (LDS) Church, just as other religions have reconsidered centuries-old beliefs.'"

(“Mormon Church apologizes for Jewish baptisms for the dead, ” by Joseph Walker, in “Deseret News,” 15 February 2012, at: http://www.deseretnews.com/article/765550827/LDS-Church-apologizes-for-Jewish-baptisms-for-the-dead.html?pg=2)


"'Holocaust victims’ only crime was that they were Jews. Now [the church] is basically killing them again by eliminating their Jewishness,' said Anti-Defamation League director Abraham Foxman, who also was part of an interfaith coalition to address the subject. He likens the situation to earlier quarrels between Jews and the Catholic Church over Jewish legitimacy, and says that, like the Catholics, the Mormons will come around and work to smooth their relationship with Jews.

“'It’s important for them to know that we’re watching,' he said. 'That’s how you keep people honest.'

“ . . . Foxman . . . agree[s] that the church knows what it is doing, and that any efficacious solution must come from education and messaging within the church.”

(“Mormons Still Baptizing Dead Jews Despite Agreements to End Practice,” by Allison Yarrow, in “Daily Beast,” 15 February 2012, at:
http://www.thedailybeast.com/articles/2012/02/15/mormons-still-baptizing-dead-jews-despite-agreements-to-end-practice.html)



Edited 3 time(s). Last edit at 02/16/2012 12:47PM by steve benson.

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Posted by: kimball ( )
Date: February 16, 2012 12:51PM

"'Holocaust victims died precisely because they were Jewish,' he said. 'Listing Jews as 'Christian’ on one of the most researched genealogical sites in the world inadvertently aids and abets denial of the Holocaust.'"

Is this guy legit? They didn't die because of their jewish RELIGIOUS beliefs. They died because of their jewish DNA. Anyone knows that. I'm pretty sure that the LDS family search website doesn't change their genetic make-up, and I'm pretty sure that jews don't think of the holocaust victims as martyrs for their religion.

If anything, this guy should only ask for the label of whether or not baptisms have been done to be removed from the website. That's a reasonable request. He should understand that the LDS church doesn't believe that everyone who has been baptized necessarily believes or is even affiliated with mormonism. The LDS stance is that now they have the chance should they so desire. I've gotten that answer from every single mormon I've ever known and have talked to about it. The only way for the dead person's affiliation to change is if they want it to, and it's perfectly acceptable for them to be allowed to determine their own affiliation. If mormonism is presenting or hinting otherwise, it should stop immediately.

Also reasonable is the request to not have a particular person or group of people baptized if your claim to them is better than mormonisms (ie. if they have more direct descendants asking for it not to be done than descendants pushing for it), or if the person specifically asked for it not to be done before they died.

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Posted by: steve benson ( )
Date: February 16, 2012 03:49PM


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Posted by: kimball ( )
Date: February 16, 2012 04:53PM

And when you're done answering that question, how about address my point about religious versus genetic jews.

By the way, I see that he was baptized catholic when he was little. Does he consider that act a disgrace towards holocaust survivors?



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 02/16/2012 05:12PM by kimball.

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Posted by: steve benson ( )
Date: February 16, 2012 05:43PM

Abe was born to Polish-Jewish parents (Helen and Joseph Foxman) in Russian-occupied Poland in 1940 and was their only son.

He was saved from Nazi extermination by his Polish Catholic nursemaid, Bronislawa Kurpi, to whom Abe was given by his parents when the Nazis ordered them to enter a ghetto in Nazi-occupied Poland.

Kurpi had Abe baptized a Catholic under the name of Henryk Stanislaw Kurpi. She raised him as a Catholic through the end of WW II in Vilnius, Poland. Abe was eventually reunited with his parents (who survived the war, although 14 of Abe's family members did not). He immigrated to America with his mother and father in 1950.



Edited 7 time(s). Last edit at 02/17/2012 12:19AM by steve benson.

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Posted by: steve benson ( )
Date: February 17, 2012 12:01PM


Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 02/17/2012 12:20PM by steve benson.

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Posted by: rt ( )
Date: February 16, 2012 12:53PM

"Perhaps the ultimate solution would be for the church to revisit its theological position on posthumously baptizing Jews and believers outside the (LDS) Church, just as other religions have reconsidered centuries-old beliefs.'"

The ultimate solution? You'd think Mr. Foxman would think twice before using such language. Mormon temple rituals may be ridiculous but to attempt to tell a religion what to believe and what to abandon is just plain over the top nonsense.

Mr. Foxman has every right to call the Mormons on their breach of their agreement with the US Jewish community but let's not get carried away here.

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Posted by: Mateo Pastor ( )
Date: February 18, 2012 06:02AM


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Posted by: Cheryl ( )
Date: February 18, 2012 07:46AM

It's mormons who are overstepping by imposing their beliefs on those who choose NOT to be mormon.

Churches don't have a moral right to intrude by taking steps to compromise others' beliefs and choices.

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Posted by: deconstructor ( )
Date: February 16, 2012 01:10PM

President Boyd K. Packer from General Conference:

"There are several religions larger than most Christian denominations, and together they are larger than all of them combined. Their adherents for centuries have lived and died and never heard the word baptism. What is the answer for them?"

"That is a most disturbing question. What power would establish one Lord and one baptism, and then allow it to be that most of the human family never comes within its influence? With that question unanswered, the vast majority of the human family must be admitted to be lost, and against any reasonable application of the law of justice or of mercy, either. How could Christianity itself be sustained?"

"When you find the true church you will find the answer to that disturbing question."

"If a church has no answer for that, how can it lay claim to be His Church? He is not willing to write off the majority of the human family who were never baptized."

"Those who admit in puzzled frustration that they have no answer to this cannot lay claim to authority to administer to the affairs of the Lord on the earth, or to oversee the work by which all mankind must be saved."

"We have been authorized to perform baptisms vicariously so that when they hear the gospel preached and desire to accept it, that essential ordinance will have been performed. They need not ask for any exemption from that essential ordinance. Indeed, the Lord Himself was not exempted from it."

"Here and now then, we move to accomplish the work to which we are assigned. We are busily engaged in that kind of baptism. We gather the records of our kindred dead, indeed, the records of the entire human family; and in sacred temples in baptismal fonts designed as those were anciently, we perform these sacred ordinances."

"“Strange,” one may say. It is passing strange. It is transcendent and supernal. The very nature of the work testifies that He is our Lord, that baptism is essential, that He taught the truth."

"And so the question may be asked, “You mean you are out to provide baptism for all who have ever lived?”"

"And the answer is simply, “Yes.” For we have been commanded to do so."

"“You mean for the entire human family? Why, that is impossible. If the preaching of the gospel to all who are living is a formidable challenge, then the vicarious work for all who have ever lived is impossible indeed.”"

"To that we say, “Perhaps, but we shall do it anyway.”"

"I bear witness that this work is true, that God lives, that Jesus is the Christ, that there is on this earth today a prophet of God to lead modern Israel in this great obligation. I know that the Lord lives and that He broods anxiously over the work for the redemption of the dead, in the name of Jesus Christ. Amen."

- President Boyd K. Packer, "The Redemption of the Dead" Churchwide General Conference, October 5, 1975, Church Ensign Magazine, Nov. 1975, page 97

http://library.lds.org/nxt/gateway.dll/Magazines/Ensign/1975.htm/ensign%20november%201975.htm/the%20redemption%20of%20the%20dead.htm

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Posted by: deconstructor ( )
Date: February 16, 2012 01:13PM

Thomas S. Monson:

"And for those who have died without a knowledge of the truth, a way has been provided. Sacred ordinances can be performed by the faithful living for the waiting dead. Houses of the Lord known as temples dot the land. As Elijah the prophet testified, the hearts of the fathers have been turned to the children, and the children to the fathers. (D&C 110: 14–15.) None shall be denied. All shall have opportunity for eternal blessings.
- Elder Thomas S. Monson, "An Invitation to Exaltation" broadcast by Satellite during an church-wide investigator’s fireside, Salt Lake City, 1 March 1984. Also “An Invitation to Exaltation,” Church Ensign Magazine, July 1984, page 69

http://library.lds.org/nxt/gateway.dll/Magazines/Ensign/1984.htm/ensign%20july%201984%20.htm/an%20invitation%20to%20exaltation.htm

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Posted by: Smiling Dog ( )
Date: February 16, 2012 01:48PM

I wonder if mormons stop to think that their leaders fear man over God.

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Posted by: steve benson ( )
Date: February 16, 2012 05:47PM


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Posted by: steve benson ( )
Date: February 16, 2012 05:48PM


Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 02/16/2012 05:48PM by steve benson.

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Posted by: hello ( )
Date: February 16, 2012 11:01PM

yeah, what Steve said, mos def, mos def...

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Posted by: robertb ( )
Date: February 16, 2012 06:46PM


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Posted by: matt ( )
Date: February 18, 2012 07:35PM

Seriously, it's good to see you back here.

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Posted by: anagrammy ( )
Date: February 18, 2012 08:01PM

The tipping point of 2012 has brought Deconstructor-the-Great out of anonymous normal living. Hopefully you will pull up a chair--we have popcorn--and join us for the festivities as Mormon greed for power has brought the media spotlight on their oozing sores where the truth used to be.

Welcome back (hug)

Anagrammy

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Posted by: tbrown9163 ( )
Date: February 16, 2012 10:59PM

Statements in the discussions that I used as a Mish (paraphrased)

We needed to come from the preexistence to gain a physical body so we could be baptized, married etc. (not possible without it)

Baptism is a commandment

we are responsible for our own actions/keeping commandments, not for someone elses

We are given no commandment that we cannot keep

Logical:

Dead people no longer have a physical body. duh

Yet, somehow they are still held to the same commandment that they had no way to keep?

I was a mish and TBM so many years ago, I hardly think about these things anymore but when I do, I realize how bizarre they were.

Until....I read the book 'Thought Contagion' which described how memes (belief systems) invent ways of keeping their 'faithful' busy with endless faith promoting but usually useless tasks as a sort of defense mechanism. Then it made sense why it is done...think of the time and money involved in this!

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Posted by: kentish ( )
Date: February 17, 2012 05:31PM

I understand the outrage at the practice but isn't the apology and promise not to do it a complete co-out on a fundamental doctrine of the Mormon Church. Agreeing that some people should be exempt from the practice diminishes the "command from god" aspect of the doctrine they clam as divinely revealed. Surely it's a major compromise of doctrinal principle.

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Posted by: anonow ( )
Date: February 17, 2012 05:37PM


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Posted by: ronas ( )
Date: February 17, 2012 05:39PM

It's pretty simple for a TBM to "reason" around.

We just have to focus on other people. Unfortunately those people will have to wait for the millenium, but it isn't far away anyhow...

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Posted by: Nightingale ( )
Date: February 17, 2012 06:11PM


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Posted by: kentish ( )
Date: February 17, 2012 08:10PM

Have an major Jewish scholars spoken out on the Mormon temple claims?

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Posted by: Rebeckah ( )
Date: February 17, 2012 08:27PM

The Smithsonian spoke out about the lies the Mormons were promulgating in regards to them and the Mormons sued them to make them change their denial into something less blunt. Truth and Mormon are two words that really don't belong in the same universe together.

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Posted by: sd ( )
Date: February 17, 2012 05:42PM

the catholics, the baptists and any other major religion out there would jump on the bandwagon and start raising a stink too. It must be just as offensive to them. More people need to complain

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Posted by: Lost Mystic ( )
Date: February 17, 2012 06:23PM

If I was Jewish, I would also be offended that Mormons claim that all of the silly temple rituals they perform were originally performed in Solomon's temple...

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