Gotta give credit where credit is due.

Joseph Smith's con, for all intents and purposes, worked.

The Church is bigger and wealtheir then anything Smith could have ever dreamed of.

Somewhere, I bet he's going, "Damn. It worked."

So what would it take for the thing to topple down?

What kind of event would have to happen?

Will it ever happen?

If such and event did happen, would it really matter?

Would anyone even care if it did?

It's happening now.

The brethren are becoming enlightened to the fact that TSCC is peddling snake oil. JS was a scam artist.

At least those with a brain and an ounce of courage are "choosing the right".

Good times.

Outcast Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> It's happening now.
>
> The brethren are becoming enlightened to the fact
> that TSCC is peddling snake oil. JS was a scam
> artist.
>
> At least those with a brain and an ounce of
> courage are "choosing the right".
>
> Good times.

What examples are you seeing of this?

In my neck of the woods, I see it most among the young women, more then any other group, which is strange.

They seem to be the ones saying, "To hell with this." More then the YM's, or the adults.

I can only speak of my own Ward, but convert baptisims are pretty mucn non existent.

In 4 years, there have been exactly 2 of them.

Not exactly booming growth.

Declining active membership. People see things like the "Jesus Mall" and the never-ending pushes from the top to recruit new members and are tired of it. It's all about tithing $$$ and nothing else.

I believe its very possible that the LDS church could certainly implode into an organization around the size of the Community of Christ and a global reputation akin to what the FLDS has presently. It would do so with a country club under-seige mentality as the Big 15 and their dearest followers circle the wagons and focus on what's really most important to them. That's numbers - i.e. assets, cash flow and profits. The storm that's started online within Mormonism culture is spreading (though not as fast as the tea party or occupy movements). It's happening right now. And it'll keep happening as long as we keep the heat on the fact that the church is NOT honest with its members. I totally sympathize with the sentiments of many exmormons that want to do nothing (which is totally their right to be left alone). However those of us who do speak out really are making a difference.

The TBMs that refuse to access Internet "truth about the Church" information are playing a losing game. I recently had a falling out with my TBM sister because she is displaying willful ignorance of anything that is anti-church. That is her current means of survival with Joseph's Myth.

Great article:
http://rationalwiki.org/wiki/Willful_ignorance

Mitt Romney getting elected would be a good start. More people will Google Mormonism and the internet will take care of the rest.

Mitt being elected would be the worse thing that could happen. Active members would use it to say quote "This is God's way of putting who he wants in charge of the US" and unfortunately a lot of idiots would believe it.

Yeah, at first the Mormons would be intolerably smug and self-righteous about a Mormon president but sooner or later, the media will get fed up with Mitt and be looking for some interesting dirt. They will stumble upon Mormonism, probably specifically the financial crap, and they will pounce. There is nothing a Journalist likes better than to take down a pompous person/organization/system. The only reason they haven't done it sooner is that no one CARES about Mormonism. There is no reason to investigate a story that no one cares about.

With President Mitt, people will care. The light will shine upon Mormonism, a religion that only can thrive in darkness and secrecy. Then the game will be up. You can see signs of it happening now. I've worked around journalists for years and years (although in more of an editorial capacity) and I know how they think. I'm sort of counting on my brothers and sisters of the media to be Saviors for those who are trapped in Mormonism. So far, it's going just like I expected and I really, really hope I'm right. I'm not infallible, but the media is where I have my hopes pinned.

I agree that it is happening now. Just not fast enough.

A few things could accelerate it. The longer Romney stays in the race, the worse it gets.

Wide spread internet use, and online aspotasy started in the mid 90's. But the creation of the internet wasn't a one-time step input against the church. The internet (and it's exmo comminuty) has grown, and continues to do so. And it's not just the exmo community that affect things via the internet. Look at the articles that have been circulating in the internet news over the last month or so.

I believe the apostasy valve is not yet half open.

Consider this: even if it never got worse than it is right nowfor the church, regarding members access to information, do you think the church can survive two more generations of internet savvy kids?

I think the church will survive in some form. But the next big crack in the dam will be the apostasy of more high-ranking Mormons.

The Mormon empire doesn't need the members. Sure, it's nice that they bring in a few billion in tithing each year but that's free money - it makes the organization bureaucratic and inefficient, a fact which is exacerbated by rampant nepotism and the sheer incompetence this introduces into the organization.

I'm willing to bet that at the end of each year, they will have spent most of that year's tithing revenue without anything to show for it except maybe superficial manuals, infantile DVD's and a few leaky roofs fixed.

When the members leave, the top dogs hurt. They don't know what to do because by and large they are not where they are because they are actually astute business men. They are there because the have the right kinship ties and know how to take orders and kiss ass.

The best thing they could do is shut down the church, kick all the old bastards out of the trough and subject the rest of the Mormon empire to the scourge of the market. Bring in a few Romneys and they will thrive.

Of course, it's easier if you don't have to pay taxes so maybe they'll hold on to their religious front organization a little while longer...

TSCC is already in decline. I think it will be a slow decline unless some huge event happens..like a BIG 15 scandal or something of that sort.

I am sure the BIG 15 are running an ENRON type of operation. All the numbers we get from them are skewed. We don't know how many resignations are happening.. heck, we don't even know if they are not counted in their numbers. We all know that active membership is at insanely low rates.

The secularization of society and the information age will continue to be the bane of TSCC's existence.

That's another thing that bothers me. Where does the Church get it's "growth rates" from. Every Ward that I know of in my area is stagnant. The only "new" members you see in many Wards, are kids getting baptized once they turn 8.

I do see articles that tell some of the uncomfortable truths about the church, that members either dont know, or never talk about; begin to pop up, but the members do not seem to care



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 02/11/2012 01:57PM by Susan I/S.

The church has been stagnant many times in their past. This is not a new thing.

Usually when church membership starts dropping, new revelations are had.

Historically, dropping activity rates have done absolutely nothing to the religion.

It's not really strange that young women would begin bailing. They'd be the ones saying, "To heck with you. I am getting an education. I'm not going to stay at home and be a brood mare. And in this day and age, you can't tell me that only men can hold this super magical power of God. Sorry, I'm outta here."

The church will disappear the day everyone learns when and when not to use a caps lock.

LOL! THAT WAS FUNNY! USING ALL CAPS GETS REAL ANNOYING.

I'm sure the church will survive in some form in Utah. It benefits the people at the top and those who kiss their butts. Some TBM's will never leave because they don't want to believe it's a lie and they've been duped.

Like the Oneida commune, Mormonism is becomming a business that was one a church. In the future they may abandon the religious aspects of the corporation and just stick to real estate.

I think this is very possible. Other examples of the religion-to-business metamorphosis are Koreshanity (founded by Joseph Smith's cousin Cyrus Teed, and which had basically become a publishing company by the time it died in the 1960s), Christian Science (real estate), and the self-help quasi-religions of the 1960s and 1970s such as Erhard Seminars Training and Silva Mind Control (business training programs).

Anytime a religion acquires substantial wealth but loses most of its members and its public credibility as a religion, something has to be done with the assets. Managing them like a business is virtually the only alternative.

I think if they were ever forced to release financial statements (both the church and for profit division). I think a lot of Mormons would be absolutely shocked by how the money is spent.

I think it's more likely that the financials will be leaked. In any organization as large and complex as the church, there have to be many people with access to a lot of financial information. It only takes one disaffected person to make it public.

I seriously doubt it. If they aren't shocked that Mormons practiced polygamy, or that they are racist, or that they practiced blood atonement, they aren't going to be shocked by financial documents.

The information age is doing in the church now. It is slow, but there is no reason to believe the decline will stop because there is nothing that can reverse the truth as it is exposed. They are close to the point where they are going to have to replace the hymn "Praise to the Man" with the song "Feelings".

However, Feelings, nothing more than Feelings, is not going to keep anyone but the hard core fools in the cult forever.

And, whatever Age follows the Information Age, will most likely be even more damaging because it will likely increase individual powers and knowledge. The group will become less and less powerful as each person has the implements they require to act on their own cognizance and not take anybody's word for anything.

The down side is, I can imagine a world without mormonism, but I would hate to not have RFM anymore.

Maybe we could rename RfM as Victory Club or something and all get together and chat and say "Remember when....lol".

Is your Caps Lock key stuck?

Disappear = Everybody would have to die.

Exposed = It is already exposed.

2012 is the tipping point for what missionaries call the "white collars."

Those who feel salvation lies in fleeing from facts and abiding in the loving arms of a corporation will stay.

Attrition will take care of the generational bond reason for staying. Grandma will die, so those who don't want to break her heart will be free to leave. Mom will die, Dad will die, freeing the generation under them.

The fact that the current increase comes mostly from children born in the covenant tells you it's only a matter of time.

The church will have 26,000,000 names "on the rolls" and no one in the pews. No cars in the parking lots, temple endowments "by appointment only" because they can't fill up a session on a drop-in basis.

All this is happening NOW, my friend, NOW is the Great Awakening. I am so pleased to be able to see this karma taking place.

It was a quiet delight to read the latest announcement from Salt Lake that no graves have been desecrated, no remains disturbed, as LDS teenagers baptize dead people.

How telling is that?

Anagrammy :)

Unfortunately, I don't think the church will ever go away completely in our day. I think there will be a slow demise of the mainstream church and eventually, I think yes, Mormonism will disappear. 14 million members with only 5 million active is pathetic. And that number is shrinking. I'm taking a world religion class at YBU right now and even my professor said that religions DO die out and Mormonism is bound to be one of them with it's sad statistics. Now Catholicism...that's a different story. One billion people will take a MUCH longer time to die out.

Plus the catholic church has a centuries long track record of being able to survive all the ups and downs of history.

I mean the Mormons like to remember the 19th century pioneers who died crossing the plains while the catholics like to remember the martyrs who were eaten alive by lions in the coliseum in ancient Rome. They just have different time horizons.

Tax!
http://www.thepetitionsite.com/1/revoking-the-tax-exempt-501c3-from-religious-institutions-as-a-result-of-being-involved-in-politics/

Thanks for the link. I just signed the petition and signed up for the mailing list.

It's time to call a spade a spade. Churches who exercise political activism with donated dollars should not be tax exempt.

Churches who hide assets in unnecessary and unused buildings should also be audited for fraud.

Churches who discriminate by gender or race should be relieved of their tax-exempt status since the genders and races so banned are taxpayers.

Anagrammy

The answer is the same as always. The Church is going nowhere (as in it's not going away). It's foundation isn't cracking. It is, at its core rock solid.

The majority of tbm's don't care what you put in front of them in the way of information. It simply does nothing, except maybe strengthen their conviction. It is a culture that is so deeply embedded that it will withstand virtually anything.

That is not to say it won't lose members, maybe even in record numbers (the recent Marlin K. Jensen stuff has been very interesting), but as far as it closing shop and going away..........never.

As has been said many times, the best that can be hoped for is more friendly dialogue between ex/fringe mo's and tbm's. The bitterness on both sides only strengthens each's resolve to "win".

Anyhow, it may change/evolve (it always has) but it's here to stay and likely to thrive, even in the age of information.