"Water is two parts hydrogen and one part oxygen. What if someone says, “Well, that’s not how I choose to think about water.”? All we can do is appeal to scientific values. And if he doesn’t share those values, the conversation is over. If someone doesn’t value evidence, what evidence are you going to provide to prove they should value it? If someone doesn’t value logic, what logical argument could you provide to show the importance of logic?"

— Sam Harris

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I would add, that (I'll just pick on Mormons for this) TBMs, do value logic, when it supports their emotional beliefs, but when the logic points in a different direction the brain just shuts down.

My question is this:

For those of us here that truly were the most stalwart of TBMS, what changed? What triggered our brains to say, maybe I should be logical about everything I believe...?

What changed for you? I still don't have an answer for myself. It was such a drawn out process that I can't pinpoint a single event that was my trigger.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 02/10/2012 04:53PM by Queen of Denial.

For me personally, I was always logical about everything I believed. I even managed to convince myself that if logic showed mormonism false, I would accept that.

Two things changed. 1) I became willing to apply my logic to considering alternate viewpoints towards the church. This was huge, since previously I didn't have much motivation to do so in much depth, given that they were false and mormonism was true. 2) I learned a butt-load of facts that, when logic was applied to them, eliminated any reason I had to believe in mormonism.

That is seriously all it took. Oh... well, except that I also lost the spirit, got offended, and decided I wanted to sin really bad.

I was out of balance. Way too emotional with nothing logical to back it up with.
Started to research why I was so overly emotional about all things and people related to church. Once it made sense logically there was no going back.

Having my emotional desire for eternal life come into my emotional desire to get jiggy with it. Logic settled the debate.

I was always logical...

When presented with new information I re-evaluated my beliefs.

The emotionial desire to remain mormon disolved when I started learning about how unchristlike the mormon church truely was.

With those two pieces in place the only challenge was being honest with those I cared about and dealing with the effects that my new beliefs (or lack there of) would have on my life and those I loved.

Instead of defining myself as "a mormon man" I defined myself as "a man that will do what I believe is right, regardless of what it costs me."

Self-loathing, depression, confusion, shame, disappointment, emptiness, anger, disgust, contempt...

See, I was never one of those who had the big delicious swoon of positive feelings about the church. An occasional situationally induced weepiness or rapid pulse, but no burning bosom confirmation the church was True®. I just marched along, thinking it must be true because everyone said so. So I didn't need to break through the testimony barrier in order to see the light. I just stopped trying to force myself to believe what I didn't. THAT's when the rush of good feelings came.

I feel the opposite to everybody. I guess it is due to leaving the church prior to the information age, but I felt like somehow my emotion overcame my logic--not vice versa.

I thought everything about the church was logical. Considering the church was my complete world and only point of reference, that is not really as odd as it may seem.

But in the end, I really was finding it difficult to sustain the guilt and low self esteem that I had courtesy of the church. Down deep, below everything, I actually liked myself and it kept trying to surface.

The light turned on for me when I read a chapter in Miracle of Forgiveness. I knew, testimonially, in my gut that it was dangerous lies from a prophet.

After that, to get on topic, the only "logical" thing to do was leave immediately, which I did. But, I could not have given you one bit of logic for doing it. I can now though.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 02/10/2012 05:33PM by blueorchid.

What changed for me was my husband (then counltess others on this board and who I've met) showing me that evidence is so powerful, and that it's okay to change your mind about stuff. Evidence changes often so why can't I? I don't gave to stay the same forever and always.

I did try to find logic in mormonism especially in terms of "gay"--there was absolutely no logic whatsoever. I was an emotional mormon--very much so--and because of that, I could never reconcile that my husband was going to be damned for something he had no choices over. AND I also knew somewhere deep in my heart that there was absolutely nothing we could do to change him. I had to step away from mormonism for that to happen though. My love for him won out over everything else.

Once I let go of mormon-think--my life and his finally started to make sense. The answers really became so simple. It was the LDS teachings about gays that made life so very complex for us.

"For those of us here that truly were the most stalwart of TBMS, what changed?"

My ability to apply logic to my own thoughts and feelings, rather than just the world around me, overcame my ability to rationalize crazy stuff like the first vision and miracles.

I've never been an emotional person, so that was never an issue.

Show them that even emotion has a logic behind it. Emotion is not necessarily the opposite of logic. Emotion is a subconscious processing of a situation at a more basic physical level that was important to our survival when we were hunter gatherers fighting wild beasts. The emotion of fear helped us avoid dangerous situations. The emotion of pleasure helped us remember things that are generally good for us. The emotion of love helped us to form relationships that allowed us to create tribes and societies that could accomplish more than we could on our own. The emotion of anger gave us the courage to conquer things that threatened our lives. The emotion of hunger made us explore our world for greener pastures.

If someone says they don't value logic, what they are really saying is they don't value logic when it threatens to harm their relantionships, or hope for life after death, or belief that their little life has a divine purpose. There is a lot in life that is illogical and random. Recognizing this fact give little sollace to the mind. More often it disturbs the mind. It is much more comforting to believe that there is a purpose, it is just too complex for us to understand. Rather than accept that your current situation in life is due to your own actions and decisions, people can believe that they are exactly where god wants them to be.

Logic is not a foolproof method for determining truth. It is limited to the data that is available and the individuals ability to correctly interpret that data. I am sure most of us can think of times where we thought we were right and thought we had good reason to believe what we did, but were later proven wrong.

The argument that there should be prophets today because there were prophets in the past seems logical. The argument that Christ as the savior of the world should have visited other cultures seems logical. Even the idea that ancient Hebrews travelled to the Americas doesn't seem too far fetched when you look at the sailing prowess of Phonencians. It is only when you bring to bare other information that it breaks down.

So how do you get someone to look at the broader picture if the narrower picture brings them so much comfort? Find ways to make the wholistic view more attractive. Create communities of wholistic rational thinkers where they can fellowship and learn. Provide services that help them identify and reach their potential more effectively than praying to a diety. Create activities that allow their life to have meaning and purpose. Create ways for their life to have impact beyond their short life. Celebrate the value of beauty, love, inspiration, and intuition in discovering new knowledge and adding to the quality of human existence.

Logic alone will not cause people to give up religion. Only a community of common belief that adresses the need people have to feel loved and that their life has meaning and purpose will be able to entice people to leave behind their bronze age belief systems.

That was excellent. I think you have left mormon style thinking in the dust. I had to read it twice.

"the narrower picture brings them so much comfort"--that's the deal, isn't it. They need to see that they could trade up.

I never really bothered with discrepancies, doctrinal issues, or many of the intellectual things that a thinking person comes to realize they can't accept. Like c12, it was the word "gay".......and what has happened to it in the Mormon cult.
It was the rhetoric, the actions, the behind the scenes manueverings during Prop H8 that became public, and worst of all, the direct, deliberate, and very very dishonest bullying and manipulation of Mormon church members by a very prominent No. Cal bay area family that my ex-husband married into, that made me take a huge breath and a huge step away and say.........NO.

To this day, the sordid, nauseating aftertaste remains in my mouth; it was difficult enough to walk into the local church building when this nightmare was at its height; the suicide of a gay acquaintance of mine in October was the tipping point. I made it very clear that not only was I not on board this wagon train, I was to be left COMPLETELY ALONE and no one was to f*ck with me on this one. In politer terms, but they knew I meant it, and to their credit, there were plenty of other local members who weren't on board with it either, they just didn't have the guts to speak out publicly about it as I did.

You know, you know inside when something is just plain wrong, and doesn't make sense. Knowing what I know now, I can't imagine trying to justify excluding blacks from the priesthood when that was destroying them in the 70s. It's just sick........and I'm glad I stopped trying to justify, excuse, condone, or shelve merely because I had warm fuzzy feelings, not so much because of the Morg itself, but the local members were among the best I've ever known. That emotional tie where I'd made so many connections is what kept me there for years, until even that finally became untenable, and the last tie was severed.

That story gives me goosebumps, but I love when you said,

"you know inside when something is just plain wrong, and doesn't make sense."

That is solidly the way it is for me, and I kept thinking since I read it yesterday, why isn't that true for everyone? Or is it but they are gutless and don't act on it?

I'm like you, I take a long time to sort out the facts, but there is a moment of truth that is undeniable, and it is there whether it goes with long held beliefs or not, and you HAVE to act on it, there is no choice.

Why isn't that true for the majority?

Anyway, thanks for the post, it caused a lot of thought for me.

Nobody offended me (any more than usual, lol), I wasn't asked yet again to do another mind boggling calling or anything else. The doubts have been creeping in for quite a long time and when I was getting ready to go to yet another soul numbing fake YW meeting, I just announced to my husband "You know, I can't do this tonight. Actually, I can't do this anymore at all!" That was it. Nobody has bugged me yet, so I guess I am not really all that vital to them. Yay! :-)

When the LYING became irrefutably crystal clear.

1. The number of members
2. The Proposition 8 obscenity
3. The disappearance of all things lamanite (Inca, Mayan, Aztec, American Indian) from curriculum, visitor's centers, and talks.
4. Demonstrably false teachings in curriculums (especially childrens') such as BofM translation, first vision, etc.
5. Influence in Utah legislative matters.

Once it was unavoidably clear that mormon leaders were capable of dissembling, the examination of everything else with new eyes was possible. Immediately the view that critics were angry agenda-filled "anti's" changed when it was possible to imagine that they were actually honest, concerned whistle-blowers.

I feel it is OK for them to feel water is composed differently. But if they try to change established science, I do have a problem with that.
The LDS church is very fond of its subjectivity. It takes members many paragraphs to explain simple concepts that contradict known logic. For instance, one can easily point out the lack of archaeological evidence that pre-Columbian Americans were not Jewish in a few mere sentences. But the LDS defense takes pages and pages of explanation.
Therein lies the problem: with enough words, one can claim anything is true. With enough diversions from the subject matter one can literally bore those that would challenge logic so much that they give up.
In my case, I had the Mormon logic so discounted in importance that everything was, "yeah right". I felt bickering about whether or not Joseph Smith was a prophet and such was not even important enough to take seriously. This was not about my salvation. It was about being a member of an organization. I learned how to be a Mormon by believing in Santa Claus and I learned how to stay a Mormon by acting like a parent that pretends to still believe in him just to be part of a silly game that has been being played for centuries. Believing in Santa Claus was never about the man-it was about the presents.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 02/12/2012 12:37PM by miner8.

Time and experience. Real life happened.

My beliefs weren't working for me anymore. Things happened that didn't fit my world view of God blessing the faithful. I didn't feel spirituality. My prayers weren't answered. I had never had what I felt was a true testimony (I couldn't say I KNEW the church was true). And the situation came to a head when someone asked me to bear testimony.

I finally realized that it wasn't OKAY anymore. It wasn't okay for God (if he even existed) to ignore me and expect me to just go on serving and believing. I DESERVED to know the truth, and I was going to find out what it was no matter what. If not through revelation, then I'd figure it out through study.

And I did.

For years, I was Mormon because I was chasing that idea of a happy Mormon family. I did everything right - I tried to be a Molly Mormon, went to and graduated from BYU, served a mission, attended a singles' ward and tried in every way to marry a worthy RM in the temple. Finally, all my work paid off and I got that temple marriage and it wasn't the happily ever after I was promised. In fact, it was crazy-making hell. Of course, part of that was the fact we were living in Salt Lake City while DH finished school and for a CA girl, it was like living on a very weird planet where everything turned upside-down. A lot of it was because I didn't even know DH when we married and he had undiagnosed ADD. Also, I went from working to broke and staying at home with first one, then two small kids and no family support.

Eventually, a series of events caused me to realize that the Mormon idea of a perfect family that I'd clung to for so long was impossible for me to get by following Mormon rules. That emotional need couldn't be met by Mormonism. After that mote was removed from my eye, I could see clearly and once I applied the same standards I used in journalism to Mormonism, it fell apart within an hour. Once I saw how Mormons treated me when I questioned, the very last threads were cut.

Oh, and funny thing. Once I started accepting DH for who he was rather than how well he filled his Peter Priesthood role, the better our marriage got and the more I appreciated him. We talk so much better now and understand each other so much better. We actually have fun together. The thing I was clinging to (Mormonism) to get a happy family was the very thing keeping me from having a happy family.

You have to let go of the emotional attachment -- it is, again, about taking your power back and owning it. That is the core element in my experience to detaching emotionally from the belief system.
Logic and reason naturally step in when the emotion bonds are released.

Often the emotional bond is given a good kick in the patootie when someone's behavior (usually a leader) is unfair, bore false witness, betrayed you, etc. The love for that person, connected to the love of the gospel can be detached in a hurry when treated in anything but a loving manner.

Because I was a young woman convert, I had no ability to think like a born in the bed Mormon! :-) The underlying, unspoken rules, and between the lines acceptable notions of the religion escaped me.

When we change our thinking, we change our whole world. Once the emotional bond/attachment is severed, it's so much easier to step back, look at the whole religious heritage and culture as part of The Big Picture and then make a determination about whether we went to fit in it or not.

Me? Not! :-)

For me, I thought I could discredit anything that came against the church. No one could explain the origins or flaws in the BoM to me. I challenged everyone.

One day last year, I was debating over e-mail with a fanatical christian group about JS and their slandering website about him. I was pist so I started defending the church.

In one of our arguments he said JS was not a martyr cuz he didn't going willingly to his death. I replied "yes he did, he died by getting shot in a jail cell innocently and UNARMED" just like I learned in Sunday School :)

Of course, he retorted and said, "what is wrong with you? He had 2 guns and the pepperbox gun was displayed in temple square at one time etc.."

I was blown back by the fact that I never knew this after all these years. I put it behind me quickly and defended him still based on self defense. However, I was pulling information from the LDS Apologetics website one day when I happened upon POLYANDRY. Now I was really disturbed. I quickly started all kinds of research to help find an answer that would help me believe firmly. I found myself walking right out the front door of LDS Inc. for good.

Oh, and Daniel C. Peterson really heped me to see the light. I owned a lot of his movies in which I was able to investigate the facts better and that allowed me to see past all of his suttle, yet clever, lies.

CTR brother Peterson. Chose The Right! You lying sack of poop!