Recovery Board  : RfM
Recovery from Mormonism (RfM) discussion forum. 
Go to Topic: PreviousNext
Go to: Forum ListMessage ListNew TopicSearchLog In
Posted by: DNA ( )
Date: February 06, 2012 07:03AM

I thought that the quote "No other success in life can compensate for failure in the home" was said by someone else prior to David O McKay saying it.

I did a search here and didn't get any hits. Am I mixed up on which quote was ripped off?

Options: ReplyQuote
Posted by: rt (not logged in) ( )
Date: February 06, 2012 07:29AM


Options: ReplyQuote
Posted by: DNA ( )
Date: February 06, 2012 07:48AM

That's right. I was correcing a fb post where someone posted just the quote, and David O McKay. I set the record straight.

I don't know why doing a search for it here didn't bring it up for me.
Thanks

Options: ReplyQuote
Posted by: yours_truly ( )
Date: February 06, 2012 07:57AM

Not one of Disaeli's most popular quotes today though:
http://thinkexist.com/quotes/benjamin_disraeli/

But nevertheless probably his ('family'):
http://quotations.about.com/od/stillmorefamouspeople/a/BenjaminDisrae1.htm

Options: ReplyQuote
Posted by: steve benson ( )
Date: February 06, 2012 10:37AM

The evidence seems to point quite clearly to TBM lurkers who are reading this board, spotting information that contradicts the Mormon myth and then altering other website sources to cover the acts of their thieving leaders.

Consider this:

In another thread, poster Makurosu noted that Mormon Church president David O. McKay's statement, "No other success can compensate for failure in the home," wasn't original to McKay but, rather, was stolen from Benjamin Disraeli:

--Posted by: Makurosu
Date: January 24, 2012
11:23 AM

Subject line: The quote was lifted without credit from Benjamin Disraeli.

"No success in public life can compensate for failure in the home."

I think Theodore Roosevelt quoted Disraeli first before the quote landed on the lips of David O. McKay.

Hooray for Jesus.
_____


I replied to Makurosu, which led to an intriguing discovery by Makurosu--namely, that the McKay-cribbed quote from Disraeli (which I had mentioned and cited from "wikipedia" in a previous RfM thread back on 11 April 2011) had subsequently vanished from "wikipedia."

Hmmmmm.

Here's how Makurosu's discovery of possible TBM tampering with "wikipidia" unfolded.

In response to Makurosu's initial post, I replied:

--Posted by: steve benson
Date: January 24, 2012
12:22 PM

Subjecct line: Yes, indeed, David O. McKay had no suceess coming up with an original line. He plagiarized it . . .

McKay ripped line off that famous line from Benjamin Disraeli (1804-1881), a renowned British politician, novelist and essayist who said:

"No success in public life can compensate for failure in the home."

(Simran Khurana, "Benjamin Disraeli Quotations A Collection of Benjamin Disraeli Quotations," at: http://quotations.about.com/od/stillmorefamouspeople/a/BenjaminDisrae1.htm)


You've even got Mormons admitting McKay cribbed it:

"My [LDS] church leaders repeatedly emphasized this teaching: 'No other success can compensate for failure in the home.' (Benjamin Disraeli as paraphrased by President David O. McKay)."

("Green Oasis," under "Family First, 5 July 2007, at: http://www.blakeclan.org/jon/greenoasis/tag/conscience/index.html)


**"No success can compensate for words that aren't my own."
_____


--Posted by: Makurosu
Date: January 24, 2012
01:04 PM

Subject line: Sounds like an epic fail for McKay in public life to me. (n/t)
_____


--Posted by: steve benson
Date: January 24, 2012
11:31 PM

Subject line: Sounds like Mormons riding the coattails of dead non-Mormons and not them giving credit . . .

If Elohim can't inspire Mormonism's false prophets with their own revealed inspirational lines, simply steal quotes from deceased Gentiles and call it your own.

To review the rip-off:

David O. McKay (1873-1970) is perhaps best known for his oft-quoted little couplet (which, come to find out, wasn't his after all):

"No other success can compensate for failure in the home."

(cited on an official LDS website, from J. E. McCullough, "Home: The Savior of Civilization" [1924], 42; Conference Report, April 1935, p. 116, at: http://www.lds.org/churchhistory/presidents/controllers/potcController.jsp?leader=9&topic=quotes; see also, Julie M. Smith, "Book Review: David O. McKay: Beloved Prophet," on "Times and Season: 'Truth Will Prevail,'" at: http://www.timesandseasons.org/?p=2252)


McKay had, in fact, purloigned that famous line from Disraeli, who said it before McKay did:

"No success in public life can compensate for failure in the home."

INTERESTING SIDENOTE: I previously found Disraeli's "no success" quote on Wikipedia, at: http://en.wikiquote.org/wiki/Benjamin_Disraeli

Checking back there today, however, that quote is no longer on that site.

Since one can go on to wiki and anonymously edit the articles of others, it does not seem beyond the realm of reasonable possibility that a true-believing Mormon (in an all-too-typical dishonest effort to keep McKay's mythological image as a "prophet" intact) snuck in to the wiki article and took it out.
_____


At this point, Makurosu picked up a traceable fishy scent:

--Posted by: Makurosu
Date: January 25, 2012
12:27 AM

Subject line: According to Wayback at Archive.org it disappeared sometime between July 15, 2010 and May 14, 2011.

Here's the July 15, 2010 snapshot:

http://web.archive.org/web/20100715203208/http://en.wikiquote.org/wiki/Benjamin_Disraeli

As you can see, the quote is in the "Unsourced" section. Only the quote has disappeared and not the Unsourced section. It wasn't moved to the "Misattributed" section either.

Here's the May 14, 2011 snapshot:

http://web.archive.org/web/20110514030631/http://en.wikiquote.org/wiki/Benjamin_Disraeli
_____


--Posted by: steve benson
Date: January 25, 2012
02:17 AM

Subject line: Thanks. That's interesting (and perhaps not coincidental). I posted on McKay's plagiarism of Disraeli on 11 April 2011 . . .

"'The Plagiarizing Moves On': In the Long LDS Tradition of Unoriginal & Uninspired "Prophets"--Joseph Smith, David O. Mckay, Ezra Taft Benson, Merrill J. Bateman & Bruce R. McConkie," posted by steve benson, "Recovery from Mormonism" bulletin board, 11 April 2011, at: http://exmormon.org/phorum/read.php?2,163604,163836,quote=1


The now-vanished Disraeli quote was on "Wikipedia" as of July 15, 2010, and read: "No success in public life can compensate for failure in the home."

http://web.archive.org/web/20100715203208/http://en.wikiquote.org/wiki/Benjamin_Disraeli


It was gone from the same "Wikipedia" page entirely by May 14, 2011 (33 days after my earlier RfM post appeared noting the McKay plagiarism of Disraeli):

http://web.archive.org/web/20110514030631/http://en.wikiquote.org/wiki/Benjamin_Disraeli

[to see and compare both "Wayback" pages, click on the word "Impatient?," located in the bottom-right corner]

(The above exchange is found in the thread, "No success outside the home....," posted by kolobian, on "Recovery from Mormonism" bulletin board, 21 January 2012, 01:33 PM, at: http://exmormon.org/phorum/read.php?2,397412)
_____


Makurso then caps it off with this "smoking gun" discovery that a pro-Mormon rewrited may well have deleted the evidence of McKay's plagiarism of Disraeli from "Wikipedia" (as noted by Makurosu later down in this thread, inserted here):

--Posted by: Makurosu
Date: January 25, 2012
10:12 AM

Subject line: It's unfortunate that there was such a wide gap in the snapshots at Archive.org.

I looked into the discussions at the wiki site to see if I could find a change log to pinpoint when the quote was deleted, but I don't know enough about the system. Maybe someone with better knowledge could look into it. It's certainly interesting.

http://en.wikiquote.org/wiki/Benjamin_Disraeli


--Posted by: Makurosu
Date: January 25, 2012
10:25 AM

Subject line: Never mind. I found it.

Looks like you're right, Steve. The quote was deleted April 15, 2011--four days after the thread on RfM.

Here's the action history:

http://en.wikiquote.org/w/index.php?title=Benjamin_Disraeli&action=history

It was removed by user "Neutrality" with the comment "rm mis-attributions."

Here's the revision log. See line 645. No explanation given for removing that quote.

http://en.wikiquote.org/w/index.php?title=Benjamin_Disraeli&diff=1372320&oldid=1272023

**********************************


So, in the end, some probable anonymous troll for the Mormon Cult removes from "Wikipedia's" biography article on Disraeli the quote from Disraeli--instead of removing from the record McKay's plagiarism of Disraeli's quote.

That says it all.

Thanks for your diligent detective digging, Makurosu, which raises the question:

No success at perptuating the Mormon myth can occur if evidence of possible TBM tampering with the trail of evidence is uncovered?

Heh.



Edited 3 time(s). Last edit at 02/06/2012 10:44AM by steve benson.

Options: ReplyQuote
Posted by: Makurosu ( )
Date: February 06, 2012 11:07AM

I saw the quote on the wall years ago inside the Theodore Roosevelt National Park visitor center in North Dakota. I can't find any other evidence online.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 02/06/2012 11:11AM by Makurosu.

Options: ReplyQuote
Posted by: Mia ( )
Date: February 05, 2013 04:28PM

A good way to keep it online is to keep talking about it here. That could land some TBM on this site, where he/she should be.

Options: ReplyQuote
Posted by: Brent C ( )
Date: April 23, 2016 07:24PM

Take a depth breath haters, and do your homework.

David O. McKay first used the quote in a General Conference of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints in 1935 and gave credit to J. E. McCullough from his book "Home: The Savior of Civilization" [1924]. He did not "Rip it off" from anyone. I think most civilized folk consider quoting another person, and giving them credit, to be most acceptable in our society.

Options: ReplyQuote
Posted by: BrentC ( )
Date: September 16, 2016 01:30PM

D McKay did not "rip off" or "plagiarize" this quote. In the 1935 publication of the LDS church's conference wherein he first used the quote, he gave credit to the author he was quoting. That is NOT plagiarism. Others including Gordon B Hinckley said it this way, "President McKay was wont to say, “No other success can compensate for failure in the home” (quoting J. E. McCulloch, Home: The Savior of Civilization [1924], 42; in Conference Report, Apr. 1935, 116

Now perhaps Mr. McCulloch ought to have given credit to Disraeli. Where is the disdain for the author that McKay was quoting? This forum is more about hate than it is learning the truth.

BrentC

Options: ReplyQuote
Posted by: elderolddog ( )
Date: September 16, 2016 05:57PM

Brent, there's a lot to hate about mormonousity...

In this instance I think the truth is somewhere in the middle.

David O. McKay, my favorite prophet, the one I grew up with, read about half a page from J.E. McCullough's book, "Home: The Savior of Civilization" (1924) during his talk at April Conference, 1935. Included in that half page of material, with no special emphasis that is apparent from reading the record, was the now famous sentence.

What was NOT included in the talk was J.E. McCullough's name! The title of the book was given in McKay's lead in, but McCullough had no personal mention.

So see why I say the truth is somewhere in the middle? Back in 1935 how easy would it have been for the people sitting in the pews to remember the title of the book and the go looking a couple of days later for the book to learn who the author was? It's not hard to see this as a bit of 'diss' to McCullough.

How do I know this? Because I read the church's April, 1935 Conference report, as can you, at
https://archive.org/stream/conferencereport1935a#page/n117/mode/2up/search/compensate

McKay's reference to the book starts at the bottom of page 115 and the one sentence at issue is at the top of the next page.

So I'm not saying McKay desired that people give him credit for that sentence, but it's a fact he didn't credit the author, but he at least did cite the name of the book.

But since then, the church has not been shy about mentioning the sentence and promulgating the inference that it's McKay's creation, such as this:

The Teachings and Testimony of David O. McKay
15. “The home is the first and most effective place for children to learn the lessons of life: truth, honor, virtue, self-control; the value of education, honest work, and the purpose and privilege of life. Nothing can take the place of home in rearing and teaching children, and no other success can compensate for failure in the home” (Family Home Evening Manual[1968], iii).
https://www.lds.org/manual/doctrine-and-covenants-and-church-history-student-study-guide/the-worldwide-church/president-david-o-mckay-no-other-success-can-compensate-for-failure-in-the-home?lang=eng

If I were a mormon, trained to only rely on LDS websites, it's quite likely that I'd believe McKay was the author of that sentence.

And the work done back in 2012, referenced above, to document the erase of credit for the sentence on Benjamin Disraeli's Wikipedia entry, that still stands as an indictment of mormonosity, as does your blundering in here yelling about how all we do is hate.

But your example makes my day! So thanks.

Options: ReplyQuote
Posted by: Jesus of Orem ( )
Date: September 16, 2016 06:12PM

Not quite, Brent. In the April 1935 GC talk, he did identify the book, but without naming the author. In a subsequent October 1943 GC address, he named McCulloch as the book's author, but didn't use the "No other success" quote. Then in his April 1964 GC address, he didn't use any attribution at all.

Then the church appropriated it, always attributing it to McKay – so yeah, it was ripped off. Whether from Disraeli or McCulloch doesn't much matter; it wasn't original with McKay, contrary to what the church has implied for decades. And a single mention of McCulloch in the Encyclopedia of Mormonism hardly makes a difference.

Your apologetics still don't excuse your Mormonite pals who removed the quote from Wikipedia's Disraeli entry in order to protect McKay.

What, were you planning to troll here every few months until you got a response? You'll have to do better than that. Time to crawl back under your bridge.

Options: ReplyQuote
Posted by: lurking in ( )
Date: September 16, 2016 06:15PM

The "no success can compensate for failure in the home" quote occurs hundreds of time on the lds.org site:

https://www.google.com/webhp?sourceid=chrome-instant&ion=1&espv=2&ie=UTF-8#q=%22no%20other%20success%20can%20compensate%20for%20failure%20in%20the%20home%22%20site%3Alds.org


The name "Benjamin Disraeli" occurs a dozen times on the lds.org site and none of them is in reference to the above quote:

https://www.google.com/webhp?sourceid=chrome-instant&ion=1&espv=2&ie=UTF-8#q=site:lds.org+%22benjamin+disraeli%22&safe=active&start=0&filter=0


Conclusion:

Either the Mormon church is currently unaware that Disraeli should be credited for the quote OR the Mormon church is intentionally engaging in deception.

Options: ReplyQuote
Posted by: Trails end ( )
Date: September 17, 2016 02:22PM

My folks took a hard left turn into hard right plygmy...that part of the whole shite show im sure Brent wouldnt wish to discuss or remember....different time my ass...it was only two of nelsons life times for goodness sake..im appalled now how much crap those leaders spewed that was plagarized and REVEALED as direct from the mouth of gawd...those old jokers watched conference and read the watch tower then spin the crap out of it as inspiration in plyg conference...or some of briggys nuggets from the JofD...its all so clear now...its all copied or plagarized or made up...and the points dont matter...anything to sound inspired...in my old mans effects i found dozens of little books full of quotations of others but at least he gave them credit...only once in a while does a great thinker come along who does more than verbal diahrea of others thoughts...PHD piled higher and deeper but it all began with a BS....not sure my old man had one original thought ...he died a mental virgin

Options: ReplyQuote
Posted by: Dave the Atheist ( )
Date: September 17, 2016 02:24PM

the thread police hate old posts.

Options: ReplyQuote
Posted by: Templar ( )
Date: September 17, 2016 03:33PM

Nothing new here. Mormonism's beloved "Brother Joseph" was well known for appropriating the words of others as his own original creations. One of the few things he actually did originate was becoming "sealed for eternity" to other men's wives, to induce them to have improper and illegal sexual relations with him.

Options: ReplyQuote
Go to Topic: PreviousNext
Go to: Forum ListMessage ListNew TopicSearchLog In


Screen Name: 
Your Email (optional): 
Subject: 
Spam prevention:
Please, enter the code that you see below in the input field. This is for blocking bots that try to post this form automatically.
 **     **  **      **  ********   ******         ** 
 **     **  **  **  **     **     **    **        ** 
 **     **  **  **  **     **     **              ** 
 **     **  **  **  **     **     **              ** 
 **     **  **  **  **     **     **        **    ** 
 **     **  **  **  **     **     **    **  **    ** 
  *******    ***  ***      **      ******    ******