The last thread on this subject closed.


Although Josh Powell parted ways with the Mormon church it is clear he fit the profile of someone who believed that his wife and his children were property. I watched a few girlfriends leave the church behind, with their husbands and when the marriage went bad, despite having supposedly left the Mormon mindset, the men freaked out, perpetuated violence and acted terrifyingly erratically.

One of their husbands, who had been having affairs nearly their whole marriage was so incapable of seperating his own identity from that of her and the kids that he became obsessed with keeping the marriage intact. He threatened to kill her and the kids on numerous occasions. This is in Utah. When the mormon police showed up, she was ignored and nothing was done. She went to judges and advocates all in an effort to keep him away from her and the children. Overwhelmingly, nobody could comprehend the danger she was in.

Some of us who have seen these situations play out in Mormon communities know the contribution the culture played.

Josh saw his wife and children as property and he owned them and he felt he had every right to murder them. His delusions were only reinforced by a culture that does not see women and children as seperate human beings from their priesthoodholder.

Josh should have never had those kids from the moment he became a suspect. There was more than enough evidence to keep him away.


I am heartsick for the last terrible moments of these little boys as they were burned alive and for the families of Susan and Josh. Some people are monsters and it is so hard for normal people to believe that they are until it is too late. Who knows, maybe Susan would still be alive if her Bishop had taken her situation seriously. Local church hierarchy are the first line of defense in abusive situations.

It's high time the LDS church put women in positions of power, including as spiritual counsel and created avenues for them to escape abusive situtations. Male Bishops should not be interviewing girls and women period! Other churches wrap their arms around women in abusive situations and keep them safe on the way out and afterward. It is a shame Susan didn't have these resources available to her.

USally: You're suggesting that LDS, Inc. Fold Up its tent & disappear.

Just DON'T hold your breath, O.K.?

Read the comments on the KSL board and at the Trib. There are multiple people suggestion that Josh still may not have murdered his wife, and as for brutally murdering his children, well he was pushed to it according to them.

These people are frightening. I don't care what kind of torture I was put through, NOTHING could ever push any normal person with feelings to hurt let alone murder their own children.

What the hell is in the water in Utah?

As for his father (a former police officer) who helped Josh get away with not only the murder of Susan but kept him free so he could follow up one brutal murder with the senseless murder of his own sons, I hope his cell mate Bubba treats him just right and keeps him alive for decades of special treatment.

There's more than meets the eye in daily events of this nature. Peel the onion man. Yes, the water in Utah....but that's only one part of the puzzle. Peel the onion, man......

My RM temple ex-husband beat me. I would beg him to stop, and he would say, "You are my eternal wive. You are my property, and I can do whatever I want to you." He would often quote D&C 132.

Utah Sally, you are right. Even tonight on the news, someone said, "Josh really loved his children." NO HE DID NOT. That is not love. He should have never been allowed around those children.

It makes me sick, the way the church excuses and condones abuse. My ex was a smiling paragon of goodness in our ward, and held a high position. Because of the temple marriage, and the fear of humiliating my parents and ruining my live (and the Mormons made sure that did happen) I endured the beatings for 14 months. Back in those days, not much was known about spousal abuse. These days, the rest of the world knows what the Mormons still deny. Look around, and you see it all the time here in Utah. Tragic!

I agree Utah Sally, he should not have had those kids. There was NO protection for the kids. Why does this go on???.....innocent children being forced to live with a madman? As soon as he said he was taking his kids camping in the winter in the snow I knew he was a whacko liar. Who didn't?

This is yet another example of failure of the law to act "until he does something."

For years women endured stalkers with no possibility of relief "until he does something." I reported my husband who drove away in our car after consuming most of a bottle of whisky. The police said they could do nothing "until he does something."

Notice they don't have the same attitude with property or terrorism. In that case, it's "if you see something, say something" and they come right out to investigate.

I hope this is waking people up to the fact that we actually protect property with hidden cameras and full investigations, but not women and children.

Being a prime and only suspect in a family disappearance/murder ought to be enough evidence to protect the children. Better to err on the side of safety, as we do with property.

And how helpful is the church at protecting women from batterers? I'll bet forestpal could speak for two hours on that subject.


Anagrammy

Fun as it might be, you can't blame the corporation for this.
This was purely & simply a nutjob, from A to Z.
Blame Powell.

I have to agree. This guy was a special kind of crazy.

This really has little to do with Mormonism, unless abusive guys find it to be e "righteous" template from which to spew hate.

I just wonder what the TBMs will say. "Look at what happens when people leave "the" church."

This has little to do with the fact that this guy was Mormon or not. He was sick. I said it the first time I saw him on TV. He did it. I could be wrong. Maybe his daddy did it, but he sure as he'll knew what happened.

Remember that the real tragedy here is that Susan's family lost their daughter and 2 grandkids. And those boys lost their mommy, and eventually their lives. That sucks.

T-Bone

I just saw this news, just now. I feel like I've been kicked in the gut.

I don't know what to say, except that man was a monster.

I thought those kids had been taken away from him. So sad.

When I was young, one of my friends, and his brother, was killed by his dad in a murder-suicide. The parents were going through and ugly divorce and the father wasn't well mentally. My parents didn't tell us until we were adults, all I knew was that they stopped coming around and needed us to take care of their finches. I loved those birds. They lived in a coconut shell.

So sad, and so unnecessary-- all of it.

He grabbed the kids at the door for his "supervised" visit... he pushed the woman away from the door...locked it... and then blew them all up!! it really does make me sick!! and those who say that the church didnt do anything wrong?!?!?! yes it did/does... it fosters the idea that the family is "thiers" do do what it will... as the "preisthhod" holder they have "command" of the family!! just like a dog in a family when ya split up "property"!! what a coward!! the kids must have had info on their mothers death or something... or maybe our non insane minds cant wrap our brains around how somebody could do this to children... much less their mother... a crime of passion may be explained away... but there is no explanation for his killing the children...so tragic...RIP kids!! :(

I never heard Mormon Church blatantly act like Women & children are properties. I lived in Utah 25 years.This guy was a sick bastard like Lafferty was but which society is immune to produce psychos like these.
I'm no fan of LDS Church by any means, but it is childish to put onus on Mormon Church.

I can't wait to see what sort of planet this one will build. I suspect we'll have to watch closely so as not to miss when its star goes supernova.

I was out and out told I was property, as a child, both at home and at church. And my parents believed nothing that didn't come from church. Deny all anyone likes... It was the way things used to be, and still are in many ways and places.

I've missed the information that indicated Josh Powell was inactive/budding exmo. Does anyone have concrete info about this?

I saw a newsmagazine show like 48 hours or dateline where the father was interviewed and said he was apostate and the family had shunned him because of it. He claimed that was the reason Susan's parents told lies about him.

When Susan first disappeared some news source interviewed their marriage counselor (mormon of course, what real professional would spill private stuff to the media) who said Susan set a deadline for Josh to be worthy to go to the temple, and Josh wasn't making the effort.

"Josh should have never had those kids from the moment he became a suspect. There was more than enough evidence to keep him away."

Here's my question as now the kids were starting to "talk" (maybe just the oldest).

Were the grandparents "trying" to get the kids to talk?
If so, how much talking did the kids do, prior to this?
Were the authorities aware of what was said awhile ago or did this just happen?
Authorities said they were "close" to charges so theorretically, they should have been able to keep the kids away from their father.

MAYBE...they can find Susan and put some closure on this.
I know the case worker who dropped the kids off anf the WVPD are very distraught about this...

During the SB the headline first said that just Josh Powell was dead from the explosion. I thought..."well, he propably deserves it". It was after that initially headline that they also said 2 kids were dead in the house also. My heart just sank...

The grandparents sid the oldest boy was beginning to talk about the 'camping trip'. He said Susan was in the trunk and then disappeared.Josh no longer had control of the kids and couldn't keep them from talking. That might have been a big factor. There is a link on MSN's home page.

WHOA? I never got the message that I was property. That went out the door decades before I converted.
Some people like to think they "own" another person and can control them, but that's certainly not something I learned as a Mormon.

I've done monitoring for supervised visitation. Some of these people are very convincing and never give a clue what they are really up to.
I almost always required a neutral spot for visitation.

Those of you who are automatically blaming the church for this need to remember that the victim was a Mormon and the perp was an ex Mormon.Why not blame it on ex Mormons? That would make more sense. BTW, before anyone get upset, that is sarcasm. I don't think being ex Mormon had anything to do with it either. Josh was sick. End of story.
News reports today say the oldest boy had begun talking about the camping tip and said Susan was with them. MAybe he was afraid they knew too much.According to MSN's home page, Charlie said Mom was in the trunk and disappeared on the trip.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 02/06/2012 03:08PM by bona dea.

Doesn't mean he did either. I think blaming this on the church when Josh is an ex Mormon is silly. how would we feel if the church blamed this on the fact that he ws EX MORMON?

If anything, this shows that there are sick people in all walks of life, not just in Mormonism. Even if he left the Mormon church, he still thought of his children as property. Stories like this remind me that I dodged a bullet when I got out of my own abusive marriage, as my TBM ex-husband did think I was his property.

The guy was a sociopath. They exist both in and out of the church. Murder has never been condoned by the church. Controlling your wife? Maybe. Physically harming them? No.

I would say it's much more likely he inherited his lack of conscience from his creepy dad.

I would like to know what the bishop, SP and other PH holders said to either one or both. I bet they are not fessing up.

Gordon B. HinKley:

"Husbands, love and treasure your wives. They are your most precious possessions".

Utah Sally,
Clearly you have failed to realize that people like Josh Powell exist in all faiths,races and communities. To be so ignorant to make it sound as if it is only a "Mormon" thing is absurd.I live in Florida and its a weekly thing to read or hear about terrible abuses and murders of family members. You have become typical of what society is becoming. You are blaming someone else (religion in this case) for a persons actions. There is no blame anywhere but with Josh Powell. He made his choice he chose his actions ....NO ONE ELSE DID!!! Your bitterness for a religion is evident in your skewed and bias opinion.