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Posted by: axeldc ( )
Date: February 02, 2012 07:14PM

Blame Darth Packer for squirreling away historical facts in the pre-Internet era. Now members find out they were lied to, and the church is shocked that they leave.

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Posted by: SusieQ#1 ( )
Date: February 02, 2012 07:18PM

Nothing is really hidden. It's all written down very carefully and easily accessed in books and on line in it's own original history.

The fact is that the history has been, over the years, white-washed, misdirected, to make it seem like something it is not.
It's done by telling part stories, using artist drawings with a lot of literary license, and shaping a story to seem literal that is not. Very clever. It's done, in my view because the power of the story is in it's metaphysical, supernatural, visionary claims from a deity and savior. Nothing quite beats that kind of credibility. And it works!

Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 02/02/2012 07:51PM by SusieQ#1.

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Posted by: onendagus ( )
Date: February 02, 2012 07:31PM

Except it is hidden to those in the church. They are told to fear and run from "anti-mormon lies". So if you are a believing member anything outside of the gospel essentials manual is not part of your life.

Plus what do you think they were doing with Hoffman's forgeries? Getting ready to take em to the publisher? No they were buying them to hide em away in the vaults. I think those vaults probably have some real gems. So yes they do hide things. The extent of the hiding we don't know.

Not that it matters. The stuff out there completely obliterates their claims.

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Posted by: forbiddencokedrinker ( )
Date: February 02, 2012 07:35PM

I often wondered if they really store them in the vaults, or place them in an incinerator.

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Posted by: SusieQ#1 ( )
Date: February 02, 2012 07:53PM

Actually, all of the books on church history are in the church libraries in the Wards/Stakes, and Institutes of Religion. They are generally in the REFERENCE section, but not all.
It's just a matter of reading them. Most can be checked out from libraries in the local areas also.
I had no idea what was in them until I read lots of passages. Boy oh boy was I surprised!!

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Posted by: rutabaga ( )
Date: February 03, 2012 10:48AM

Our church library only stocks books published by Bookcraft or BYU. Fluff history.
Anything by Signature or other hard-hitting publishers seems to disappear.
You can find a few gems in the older books,but anything else is fluff.

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Posted by: notmo ( )
Date: February 02, 2012 08:26PM

at one time or another the Mormon church, did, in fact, lock stuff up they didn't want people to see. I remember the Tanners took some large minimally sensitive photographic plates into the historian's (I believe it was the historian) office and copied some document (can't recall which one now) that the church had been secretive with.

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Posted by: GNPE ( )
Date: February 02, 2012 11:21PM

Oh; like the picture of Hofmann with GBH & 'the crew' that's been excised from the Online Ensign? (as told here at least)

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Posted by: GNPE ( )
Date: February 02, 2012 11:23PM

FP Vault, anyone?

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Posted by: Suckafoo ( )
Date: February 03, 2012 03:06PM

They abridge on line Ensigns?

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Posted by: freeman ( )
Date: February 03, 2012 02:34AM

Plus, of course, many of the books that are still available in LDS ward libraries are the *CENSORED* versions that the early Brethren already edited out the juiciest parts from. References to Joseph Smith drinking have all but vanished from church published books currently available.

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Posted by: Raptor Jesus ( )
Date: February 02, 2012 11:17PM

"The fact is that the history has been, over the years, white-washed, misdirected, to make it seem like something it is not.
It's done by telling part stories, using artist drawings with a lot of literary license, and shaping a story to seem literal that is not."

That's what keeping it hidden MEANS!

Mormon doctrine even condemns this practice. It's called LIES THROUGH OMISSION!

And there's a BIG difference between this practice and mythology.

Mythology never claims to be literally factual.

But Mormon history does! So much so, that anyone who tells the full truth about the history is called a liar and a heretic.

White washed Mormon History doesn't get a free pass.

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Posted by: caedmon ( )
Date: February 02, 2012 11:23PM

We can also intentionally deceive others by a gesture or a look, by silence, or by telling only part of the truth. Whenever we lead people in any way to believe something that is not true, we are not being honest.

The Lord is not pleased with such dishonesty, and we will have to account for our lies. Satan would have us believe it is all right to lie. He says, “Yea, lie a little; … there is no harm in this” (2 Nephi 28:8). Satan encourages us to justify our lies to ourselves. Honest people will recognize Satan’s temptations and will speak the whole truth, even if it seems to be to their disadvantage.

Gospel Doctrine Manuel Chapter 31: Honesty

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Posted by: Makurosu ( )
Date: February 02, 2012 07:32PM

The example of Cowdrey recanting his testimony used by Peterson isn't even a good one. How about the person on the far left in Facsimile #3, who is Isis, given in the explanation by Joseph Smith as "King Pharaoh"? How about Smith using the same peepstone to translate the Book of Mormon that he previously used in his gold digging scams? What about Smith having himself sealed to the wives of apostles shortly after sending them out on missions to distant lands?

Full disclosure means full disclosure, and I don't think they can do it.

Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 02/02/2012 07:33PM by Makurosu.

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Posted by: Unchained ( )
Date: February 02, 2012 08:05PM

I totally agree with you. If you were a typical ignorant TBM you'd read this article and believe that there are critics on the Internet who seize on fraudulent or dishonest portayals of church history. There isn't really an admission that there are very serious problems with the historical and doctrinal foundation of the church that causes once faithful members to question and depart. But it's a start.

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Posted by: exldswestaussie ( )
Date: February 02, 2012 07:43PM

I gave a friend the first vision account the true one of 1824 one personage appearing and not in 1820, then in 1838 joe smith announced it was two personages as if that wasnt important enough to mention in the first recording...

My friend deserted me for trying to cause her to deny the feel good holy ghost a serious matter, because those with the facts and not naive fools anymore are considered dammed but the brainless vonerable idiotic chidish ones who reject the facts and thinking for themselfs, have the gift of the holy ghost and the mormon holy ghost even goes against the bible warning not to trust in feeling but come and reason together in christ and expose all deception as those who accept any other angel preaching another message than the bible, is accursed and they have no true light in them...

The brigtness of brainless wishing the church is true is no more than believing in the magic of walt disney and theme parks it works to decieve even the very elect...

Ex west aussie.

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Posted by: SL Cabbie ( )
Date: February 02, 2012 07:45PM

Whitney wrote one early volume of revisionist dissembling, and Robert N. Baskin was moved to write this magificent rebuttal:

I think this one belongs in every Exmo's library along with "No Man Knows My History," and a few others including works by Juanita Brooks, Will Bagley, David Bigler, and Grant Palmer (to name just a few).

J. Reuben Clark was a trustee of the ruling body at BYU and a large number of original pioneer journals were suppressed as well during his tenure there.

Brother Brigham was right; the Saints have some of the smoothest liars in the world...

Fastening on the ol' bullchip catcher in preparation for reading this article

Edited 3 time(s). Last edit at 02/02/2012 08:12PM by SL Cabbie.

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Posted by: SL Cabbie ( )
Date: February 02, 2012 08:18PM

Good ol' Denial C. Peterson; I keep trying to retire that tag I hung on him years ago (because he now claims it's "old"), but he still still keeps Coscto in the business of bulk sales of the ol' bullchip filters...

Peterson notes he was "blindsided" by this bit of apostate heresy:

>The critic claimed Oliver Cowdery, an early Mormon leader and witness of the Book of Mormon, recanted his testimony.

But of course, "Peterson looked in[sic] it and learned the statement by Cowdery was actually a late forgery — one that even most critics of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints now reject."

Shoot, I haven't heard of that one, and it's irrelevant except anyone who believes DCP didn't cherry pick the story needs to look at that beachfront property of mine up west of Bountiful... I'll make you a good deal, honest...

Sheesh, Danny Boy, why no mention of the claim of Cowdery's that Joseph Smith's dalliance with Fanny Alger was a "dirty, filthy affair"?

Which Cowdery never recanted and was the basis for OC's excommunication...

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Posted by: Stray Mutt ( )
Date: February 02, 2012 08:02PM

It's as if Jesus never warns his chosen prophets of anything in advance. Instead, he sits back playing Magic 8-Ball with them, chuckling as they keep asking irrelevant questions.

"Hey," says Jesus, "They never asked me if there would be an explosion of easy, searchable information about the true origins of the church and the crazy things leaders have said. They have to search out those questions in their minds. I can't put the questions there. And I can only confirm or fail to confirm the answers they come up with themselves. It's so fun watching them flounder."

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Posted by: ronas ( )
Date: February 02, 2012 08:21PM

Amos 3:7

Surely the Lord GOD will do nothing, but he revealeth his secret unto his servants the prophets.

So true. It's just that he hasn't done anything yet.

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Posted by: foundoubt ( )
Date: February 02, 2012 09:57PM

My impression is that DCP tries to reframe this as "All these people ask these questions because they don't know the answers." I have some news for him, we do have the answers, and those answers don't jive with what the church has always taught us. These people are asking church authorities to refute the answers they have, and to do so with any evidence to the contrary. It can't be done, and that is the reason for the crises of faith. It's like the GA that said you have to ask the question they should have asked. We know what the question is, that GA is just dodging it, like Denial C Peterson.

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Posted by: Heathen ( )
Date: February 02, 2012 10:08PM

Read a quote on this board many years ago...

"Belief in the absence of facts is faith; belief in spite of the facts is delusion."

I don't think the "truth" is going to change many hard-line, old-time mormons. I think they'd rather be deluded than face the pain.

But the truth will affect the younger LDS crowd, and potential converts.

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Posted by: deepcreek ( )
Date: February 02, 2012 10:15PM

Show the JS papyri, peep stones, sword of Laban hahahahahaha.

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Posted by: amos2 ( )
Date: February 02, 2012 10:15PM

Just as "disturbing" as the facts are, the church's attempts at censorship are just as bad.

I was just a kid when the Hoffman bombings occurred, the September Six, and earlier sanctions against dissidents.

I never knew about the "Strengthening the Members Committee" that is/was essentially a private-detective program on dissidents.

It's bad enough when you find out facts that all but falsify the church's claims, but it's even worse when you find out the church knew all along and tried to cover it up.

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Posted by: GNPE ( )
Date: February 02, 2012 11:24PM

FP Vault, anyone?

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Posted by: Mia ( )
Date: February 02, 2012 11:31PM

In 1958, when I was 5 years old, my mother scolded me for asking questions about the church. I don't remember what the question was, but I do remember the response.

"Don't ever question the church! That is a sin. You will not go to heaven if you question the church. Don't ever do that again!

For many years I didn't. Apparently, my mother who born in 1928, had it made very clear to her to not ask questions. The church started that generations ago. Nobody asks, they don't have to answer. Made it easy for them. Problem is they didn't see the internet coming their way. Prophet didn't see one of the biggest inventions in the history of the world. Also didn't realize teaching little kids to be honest would come back bite them in the butt.

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Posted by: holistic ( )
Date: February 03, 2012 03:00PM

I have a similar memory from my childhood. My sweet mom had mentioned to me that they give you a new name in the temple. I think she was just trying to make me excited to go to the temple. I was about 8 or 9. My parents are divorced and I lived with my mom at that time. My grandparents lived in Billings, MT and so did my dad. I would often go and visit my grandparents. One day when I was in my grandpa's car with other siblings.. he was driving, we were all talking about about the new temple that was going to be built in Billings. I stated to my gpa that my mom told me you get a new name when you go to the temple...I said it all excited and curious. My grandpa turns around all shocked and says..."You should never speak about what goes on in the temple! Your mother should know better than that!" I stopped right in my tracks and remember my heart sinking because I loved/love my mom so much.

My grandpa later went on before he died to write a book...took him ten years about.. off and on.(My oldest aunt retired from teaching English and helped him a couple of years) It was based on how to talk to your neighbors about religion and still be friends. My grandpa would also go and debate with other religious leaders in his community. He once got a rock thrown through his huge bay window. He would say..."I am pretty sure I know who did that...that lutheran preacher." Something along those lines.

My grandpa was an amazing person and always stood by what he thought he knew and did really know a lot but I think he was just misinformed(of course now I know that). He lived Mormonism to a T. I miss him at times and think that most of his family has stayed active because of his influence. He was staunch as they come and always tried to back up everything he said.

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Posted by: ontheDownLow ( )
Date: February 03, 2012 01:29AM

Dan Peterson is the biggest lying farging icehole in the world. I got so many movies of him lying his azz off about the validity of the BoM.

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Posted by: GNPE ( )
Date: February 03, 2012 01:55AM

YouTube material, I hope!

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Posted by: drilldoc ( )
Date: February 03, 2012 12:31PM

with kind of a straw-man argument. Olivery Cowdry didn't retract his testimony, however, he did join another faith that required him to recant his testimony before joining. If he did so privately, we don't know.

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Posted by: onendagus ( )
Date: February 03, 2012 01:11PM

Yeah Oliver Cowdery was such a great mormon.

His preacher growing up wrote View of the Hebrews which predates the bom and contains the then common idea that the american indians are jews.

He had a gift of working his rod. See the original Book of Commandments. He was a treasure digger just like JS. God and JS were super proud of his magyk gift.

He rejected JS, calling the JS/Fanny tryst a "Nasty, dirty affair". Got excommunicated for that one. Can't be letting folks know about the "new and everlasting covenant" before its been thought up ya know.

He joined the methodist church.

A Times and Seasons article refers to the fact that he did deny the BOM. But of course the church doesn't hide stuff so more information on that will probably be coming out soon. Don't hold your breath.

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Posted by: PapaKen ( )
Date: February 03, 2012 01:00PM

De Groote wrote:

"Daniel Peterson remembers when he was blindsided."

And a few lines later:

"For Peterson, it wasn't a big crisis."

How can you be blindsided and have not be a big crisis? That was enough for me to stop reading the article.

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Posted by: just a thought ( )
Date: February 03, 2012 01:22PM

I think this is evidence the church is seriously rethinking its approach to history. The church is trying to get in front of the problem, to get its version of events out there before even more tithe paying members find out some one else's version.

They think that flooding the internet with a bunch of new lds sites and lds social media, publishing an lds book of lds explanations to "tough" historical issues and producing a scientology like "I'm a Mormon" campaign will combat the problem.

I see it all as too little, too late.

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Posted by: Suckafoo ( )
Date: February 03, 2012 03:03PM

There is an article in Ensign this month talking about Internet practices. The church should probably come up with a safety software that funnels out anything they don't want their members to see.

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