Early in life we are are told of mystical beings, to include the Tooth Fairy, the Easter Bunny, the Sandman, Santa Claus, and of course.... God. Is it possible that humanity is so tired of being disappointed by the realization that these don't really exist, that it just HAS to believe in SOMETHING? I realize that fantasy is necessary for child development, but really, what damage could we be doing by this practice?

I think it is likely that we are hard-wired (genetically predisposed) to believe in a higher authority, and that early in humanoid evolution it served as a protective factor. At the least, it provided a way to explain the unexplainable.

Has the cultural habit mystical beings--Tooth Fairy, Easter Bunny, Santa Claus, etc, grown out of that need to "believe?"
Or is it simply a means of bringing joy to small children? I don't know. Do we have any developmental psychologists on the board? Interesting questions. I don't have any answers.

Believing in fantasy is a developmental stage in kids. It comes before concrete thought and well before abstract thought. You can't rush these developmental stages any more than you can rush when a kid's baby teeth drop out and the adult teeth emerge.

Jean Piaget is the father of developmental psychology. His theories are taught in every teacher education program in this country. Scroll down to the "Stages" section on this page to see more:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jean_Piaget

An excerpt: "Preoperational stage: from ages 2 to 7 (magical thinking predominates...")

I like how you use Tom Flynn's quotes so much...he is a folkorist...not any expert in child development. yeah he wrote a book...so what...when he gets his PH.D in child psychology...then quote him...other that that he is just like the rest of us...he has his opinions! also here about TF>>>McGowan is a critc of Flynn's.

"Flynn argued that early immersion in the Santa myth predisposed children to accept absurd religious teachings in later life; McGowan argued that the discovery that the Santa myth was untrue prepared children to reject religious dogmas in later life. Both agreed that the subject demanded further research by the child-development community.[12]"

wow...just look at that last sentence. Even the author of most of your Citations agrees there should be more research by the experts...what about that Steve?

and what about another of your citations Steve? here...
“'Once they [children] start to question, you know they’re getting ready to want to hear the real answer.' . . . .

"Curry recommends to parents that '[w]hen the child starts to ask the practical questions, then throw it back to them and say, ‘Well, what do you think?’"

and here another citation...:
"Scheibe said it is best for an adult to confirm the truth only if a child has strong doubts after wrestling with the question of Santa Claus’ existence.

"'If kids come to the conclusion on their own, they feel a sense of accomplishment,' she said.

“'It’s sort of a rite of passage.'”
Neither of them suggest that it is wrong to have a Santa fantasy...they seem to be saying tell the truth when appropriate!

...very few parents try and keep the lie going like your parents did...perhaps you need counseling for your recovery from santa! Ya know this is too easy Steve...maybe you should not cite any more of your experts!! :)

I see also you were referring yesterday to my "losing" the argument...LOLOLOL...losing /winning?

so who was the judge i was "debating" in front of?

sorry i gotta leave...<<sigh>> I have to go down to the Florida Keys and pick up a friend...I may not be back for a couple hours...and even then i will be busy tonite...have fun with your "winning: Steve!

Until anyone starts a war in the name of Santa Claus, he will remain my favorite mythical being.

Unlike mormon dogma, parents don't beat or threaten children to force them to keep believing in Santa once they've outgrown the idea.

But mormon parents get hysterical if kids ask, "But how could golden plates disappear? How could Book of Mormon people stay alive if their arms and heads are chopped off? Why does God like mormon people who are sometimes not very nice better than my nice grandma who goes to the Catholic Church?"

It's good for the kids, you know.



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 05/22/2012 05:59PM by steve benson.

I'm sorry about your miserable childhood. Mine was happy.

There's no need to force ideas like this on kids with a vengence.

It's good for parents to use words like pretend, make-believe, imaginary when they talk about fairies and gnomes.

"Oh, your imaginary friend is having lunch with you?"

"It's fun to wake up and a find a dollar from our imaginary tooth fairy friend."

Remember Mr. Rogers on TV? He had a tolly going from his neighborhood to the the Neighborhood of Make-Believe" in every show. Still, some kids had trouble figuring out that the the puppet world was not reality. It's the nature of childhood but we're grownups now and can deal with it if we decide to be strong and brave.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 01/12/2012 09:25AM by Cheryl.

The land of make believe always freaked me out. Weird screechy voices and mouths that didn't move. *shudder*

The world is full of fantasies. It's one of the ways we use our creative thinking to make an interesting world out of a boring one at times!
I'm all for fantasies. Then there is science fiction and Star Wars, and all that FUN stuff!

It's all OK in my book!

And why lie in the first place.

I know, isn't that a weird juxtaposition?

I didn't look on it as a "lie" -- it was fun and it was makebelieve. When my children came out and asked me about them, I answered honestly -- and the tooth fairy, easter bunny and santa still visited them because it's fun. My children have never complained and they trust me to be honest with them. It's pretty much a win/win.

(We tell children about these imaginary friends because they are part of their traditions. And far better them than Baba Yaga or the Boogie Man -- I NEVER held with frightening children.)

If these things aren't taken to extremes and make being a kid a little more fun or a little more exciting, then what's the harm? They'll be struggling to pay a mortgage or riding a humvee through eastern Afghanistan soon enough.

Thank you Cheryl- I totally agree with you.

It's fun to pretend that stuff could exist, especially when you are young....I simply out-grew the Mormon pretenses(finally at 22). I am surprised that competent adults still do believe....and they really do fully. As I have grown in my journey out of the church....when I meet a Mormon I would compare them to a person in high school high who believes in santa and the tinkering elves up north.

When I told some of my sisters two years ago I am no longer a believing Mormon...out of their mouths came..."How will you raise your kids?!" "I just don't know how I could teach my children about Jesus with out the church." I have pondered on this a lot lately. It's like fear that drives them to keep a firm hold and the church shapes their lives. I am personally not OK with that framework. I have had to completely reprogram my brain along with the shunning and frowns my family gives me. I just don't think it is cool in any form that parents continue to lie to small children about the church--they believe you--you are their parents.

RAISE your own EFFING KIDS...STOP throwing it on a CHURCH and teach your children that Jesus was a great example to try and be like if you like him so much. Lead by example parents. ohh...wait Mormons are sooo busy popping kids out that they don't have time to raise them so they throw them in primary..I know cause I am one of seven. It's a damaging way to grow up. Adam and Eve...haha..good one guys. Why don't you teach the truth... EVOLUTION...it would have given me a kick start on life. Religion is so damaging..period. maybe some out there don't agree but it is simply my opinion. I love LOTR and Harry Potter though!

I went to Cafe Rio in Gilbert, AZ this weekend...white shirts galore and children everywhere. It took me back and made me cringe. Baffles me the balls that people lack. Hope everyone is having a great day!

"We took your dog to live on a nice farm. He's really happy there."

Okay, let's go visit this farm so I can pet my dog.

Parent: Erm. Uh oh.

I think we make up stories for ourselves, as a tribe, to try to make sense of that which we're having trouble making sense of. A narrative helps give us context. When we perpetuate these lies to children, we think we are doing them a favor by shielding them from reality. I'm referring to the lie I posted above. (They had that dog put to sleep. It was easier to lie to me than it was to teach a child about grief and loss.)

Lies like the Easter bunny and Santa Clause and the Tooth Fairy -- I think those would be best presented as fairy tales and not to be believed as reality. But some parents present these ideas as if they are reality... because they are preparing their children to swallow the Jesus lie next. In a cult context, it's called "grooming."

because kids can't understand the difference between real and makebelieve until they reach that level in their development.

The difference between mormon dogma and imaginary friends is that kids are coerced to continue believing the dogma after they're old enough to understand it on a more realistic level.

Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 05/22/2012 06:15PM by steve benson.

The difference between mormon dogma and imaginary friends is that kids are coerced to continue believing the dogma after they're old enough to understand it on a more realistic level.

Children, you see, are propagandized "to continue believing the [Santa] dogma [until} they're old enough to understand it on a more realistic level."

By the way, children are not necessarily coerced to believe in Mormonism after they are old enough to understand it on a more realistic level. There are ex-Mormons here and/or elsewhere who have said that they rejected Mormonism in their childhood years. One happens to be my son.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 05/22/2012 06:35PM by steve benson.

"I realize that fantasy is necessary for child development, but really, what damage could we be doing by this practice?"

the answer is no damage if not overdone by the parents...it can be damaging if the parents insist that the characters are real. There are some on this board that have had a bad time with the Santa Claus fantasy...but as you state fantasy is necessary for normal development of the human psyche!

So are you proposing that we should only be exposed to non-fiction?

Sorry about your sad childhood.

... based on a yearly North Pole performance review?

Please send me a copy.



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 05/22/2012 06:18PM by steve benson.

So you ARE opposed to fiction and fairy tales. I don't know what to tell you. Sounds like a personal problem to me.

Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 05/22/2012 06:19PM by steve benson.

in the non-fiction section.
Also, tell me the last novel you read that included a disclaimer telling the reader it was not factual. Does Harry Potter tell you that? LMAO

Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 05/22/2012 06:26PM by steve benson.

I dunno - I kind of see it as presenting fiction as fiction.

I actually agree that when you go to ridiculous extremes to get kids to keep believing it that it becomes harmful.

The very first time my kids question it I say - yes, Mom & I are the easter bunny - this is a fun pretend game we are playing.

To me watching my kids it was a positive thing for them to experience. It was fun for them to have the fairy tale that the candy and presents magically appeared.

It was fun for the kids to believe in magic. It was fun for the kids to be smart enough to figure it out - they were always proud of themselves.

I think using Santa as a threat to try to manipulate children's behavior is horrid.

So I still believe that done in moderation that it is a harmless, fun thing.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 05/22/2012 06:35PM by bc.

Life without fiction, imagination, fatasy, and unrealistic creative interation would be a wasteland for kids and for many adults.

What a bitter man.

What a bitter sidestep. :)



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 05/22/2012 06:20PM by steve benson.

They have to be told who and what Santa is to ever find out right ... I mean kids aren't born with the knowledge of him, are they?

Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 05/22/2012 03:41PM by steve benson.

Every morning, I'll wake them up by saying,

"There's no god. There's no magic. And eventually - you and everyone you care about is going to die!

Have a great day; Love you."

The desire to believe in invisible things seems to vary from person to person. I don't think I ever had such a desire, and I know my son doesn't. He always knew that Santa is just an image on Christmas wrapping and that Christmas is a winter holiday. If he'd wanted to believe, I would have indulged him for awhile.

Personally, I think the stories and fantasies which are told to children is to help in their imagination and creativity. The fairy tales and such that we were told as children do have archetypal meaning. We, as adults, should also continue to use imagination in our lives otherwise our world may become a bit boring, dull and lifeless. If it weren't for imagination, how would we have planes that fly, steel ships that float, etc.

The problem is, where do you draw the line as an adult with your children, especially when it comes to Mormonism and the LIES that have been told and perpetuated? What is "Real" anyway? Isn't this world really all just a big fantasy anyway . . .you know - the big DREAM! :-)

Santa Claus is just one lie parents tell. Everyone lies. If you think you don't lie, including to your children, you are either the exception or deluded.

When I was about six years old I was watching a caterpillar crawl down a leaf. My well educated Mom told me some BS about how this caterpillar was going to take a nap and wake up as a butterfly. I knew that was crap - even at that age I knew an insect has six legs and three body segments. It was obvious that this critter with all those legs and body segments was NOT an insect. I wasn't so upset that my Mom would lie to me as I was upset that she thought I was dumb enough to believe it.

Fast fwd - fourth grade. We had a terrarium in the classroom, with some caterpillars. Sure, they can make a cocoon; no problem. Problem was teacher was in on the joke. Came in one morning - butterfly! Oh, crap, the janitor was in on it too. Was there no end to this conspiracy?

EVERYONE I know believed in Santa as a kid. Pretty sure none of them felt messed over by it.

Nope, definitely not everyone, but definitely a large enough sample size. Sorry that Santa never got you that Red Ryder BB gun.