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Posted by: angelina5 ( )
Date: January 03, 2012 10:51PM

Church news for photos of Bathsheba Smith's Book of Mormon owned by Hyrum. Is everything a fraud? Did Elder Holland thought that none would notice the different books????

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Posted by: Glo ( )
Date: January 03, 2012 11:28PM

Mormonism was built on a fraud and continues to be fraud .

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Posted by: lazarus ( )
Date: January 03, 2012 11:29PM

I have been reading stuff like that for two years. Amazingly, I am still surprised by what I find. Like Steve Benson's post on Oliver Cowdery being excommunicated for complaining about Joseph sleeping around with a 17 year old. Speaking of which, if you haven't read the stories with Joseph Smith and polygamy, here's a great eye-opener.

http://www.wivesofjosephsmith.org/

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Posted by: angelina5 ( )
Date: January 03, 2012 11:32PM

I meam seriously?? This is truly unbelievable!! And this is my second week of discovery!! Thanks for the link!

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Posted by: kimball ( )
Date: January 04, 2012 06:01PM

I've been out for a year and half, and I'm still making crazy discoveries all the time. You're barely past the tip of the iceberg, believe me.

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Posted by: SL Cabbie ( )
Date: January 04, 2012 12:25AM

Almost worth it to have the board down the Sunday following the General Con...

You've come along way, Angelina... Your reply on one of the threads discussing sex was cosmic...

Keep coming back...

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Posted by: angelina5 ( )
Date: January 04, 2012 12:46AM

This is quite a journey indeed! I am pretty straight-forward and under the cloak of anonymity, it is fairly easy to be frank :-)

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Posted by: blueskyutah ( )
Date: January 04, 2012 01:44AM

what am I missing about this post? Please explain in more detail how Holland is a fraud and what book are you talking about specifically?

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Posted by: SL Cabbie ( )
Date: January 04, 2012 02:25AM

I think there are better versions out there, but it took me a bit of Googling just to get this one...

http://www.flickr.com/photos/nickleus/sets/72157623567278714/comments/

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Posted by: CA girl ( )
Date: January 04, 2012 01:55AM

angelina5, you remind me so much of myself 2 years ago. I couldn't believe the weird stuff that I kept uncovering. It wasn't just one thing or two things that disproved the church - it was a massive, never ending avalanche of information I'd never even heard about before.

I compare it to mucking out a bottomless outhouse. Just when you think you've gotten to the bottom of the dirt and slime, you are shocked to discover another layer of crap underneath. Don't worry - eventually you'll have heard most of the stuff and will only be surprised occasionally or surprised when they pull something new.

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Posted by: angelina5 ( )
Date: January 04, 2012 08:06AM

CA girl, I have appreciated your support ad comments. It's nice to know that someone went theough a similar path. What were the dead give aways for you?

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Posted by: Lucky ( )
Date: January 04, 2012 02:36AM

this is old news, for those who have been here for a while.
( just like so many other things)

I am not saying this to try to MORmON you / be better than you. I am saying it to reassure you in your notion that LDS Inc and MORmONISM are totally permeated & replete with astounding, nearly incomprehensible, amounts of bold faced fraud. thats how Joe started it and how it runs even today.

congrats on checking up on the LYING POS Leaders and rooting this out on you own. as time goes on you will see that the ppl here are much more credible than the ppl speaking for MORmON Jesus over at LDS Inc.

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Posted by: Anonymous User ( )
Date: January 04, 2012 05:07AM

Holland also stated publicly that the continents only split from each other AFTER Noah's flood - which, according to Mormonism, happened circa 2-3,000bc. Doh!

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Posted by: imalive ( )
Date: January 04, 2012 03:36PM

When did he say that?

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Posted by: kimball ( )
Date: January 04, 2012 06:08PM

http://lds.org/ensign/1976/06/a-promised-land?lang=eng

'Holy scripture records that “after the waters had receded from off the face of this land it became a choice land above all other lands, a chosen land of the Lord; wherefore the Lord would have that all men should serve him who dwell upon the face thereof.” (Ether 13:2.) Such a special place needed now to be kept apart from other regions, free from the indiscriminate traveler as well as the soldier of fortune. To guarantee such sanctity the very surface of the earth was rent. In response to God’s decree, the great continents separated and the ocean rushed in to surround them. The promised place was set apart. Without habitation it waited for the fulfillment of God’s special purposes.'

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Posted by: peregrine ( )
Date: January 04, 2012 06:38AM

and once they've established that promoting faith is more important than anything else they don't have anything at all to constrain them to facts, history or evidence.

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Posted by: Greyfort ( )
Date: January 04, 2012 07:56AM

I studied for months. It gets to the point where you realize that the evidence is simply overwhelming.

When you first begin studying, when you've just learned a few things, you can find a way of thinking maybe there's a mistake somewhere and you can set that evidence aside.

But it gets to the point where you know with every fibre of your being that it's simply all a fraud. That's when peace really comes, because that monkey is off your back, that weight lifts off your shoulders and that's when you're truly free.

Once you have the absolute confidence that it's all a fraud, fear finally leaves and peace has room to come in.

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Posted by: angelina5 ( )
Date: January 04, 2012 08:02AM

I can't wait to get that confidence Greyfort. I know deep inside that it's not what it claims to be but I'm not 100% there yet, maybe 95%. I don't want to be part of it anymore, I already feel more free, this is the beginning of liberation for me!

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Posted by: Alex Degaston ( )
Date: January 04, 2012 03:20PM

The dumbest advice I ever got for me on RfM was to take it slow on existing the LDS church. If I had to do it all over again I would've just abruptly resigned. I kept making excuses to myself on why I should postpone. In retrospect it was a waste of time to wait, wait, and wait. Well everyone's situation is different and only you have to live with whatever decision you make so whatever works best for you. Best wishes to you.

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Posted by: CA girl ( )
Date: January 04, 2012 05:34PM

Because the BEST advice I ever got on RfM was to take it slow. It gave me time to research the facts and grow in confidence with each step I took. It also gave me a chance to walk/guide my family out so they feel that it is their decision to leave. That will hopefully make them immunized to friendshipping in the future. Because they have thought things out for themselves. Also, it kept most of my relationships with TBMs intact and gave the TBMs I don't like a chance to show what they really were. After months of being lied about and ignored, I know which ones are faking friendship and which ones were willing to stick by me.

Not that I'm not jealous of those who are able to just say NO to Mormonism and jump out all at once. I really wish I didn't have to drag out the process in a lot of ways. But for me, taking it slow was the best way for me to learn: learn about the church, learn to be assertive and learn who to trust.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 01/04/2012 05:35PM by CA girl.

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Posted by: SL Cabbie ( )
Date: January 04, 2012 05:47PM

And resignations can have an adverse impact on extended families as well.

Shoot, I've got two sisters, both really successful career women, and both are still on church rolls and can't be bothered with resigning (too much of a hassle). There would be zero complications if they did, but it's not worth the trouble to them...

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Posted by: darth jesus ( )
Date: January 04, 2012 07:01PM

amen to that my brother.

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Posted by: Brother Of Jerry ( )
Date: January 04, 2012 08:17AM

That is Mormonism, start to finish.

Holland is a well-trained academic, who knows how to evaluate evidence. Every time I have seen him since he became a GA, I get the feeling his head is about to explode from the cognitive dissonance. His psyche must be a Franz Kafka novel.

That level of psychic pain causes one to do and say strange things, and Holland is first among equals when it comes to saying strange things.

Packer says plenty of strange things too, but he's not in psychic pain. He's a carrier of pain, not a victim.

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Posted by: kookoo4kokaubeam ( )
Date: January 04, 2012 03:52PM


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Posted by: JoD3:360 ( )
Date: January 04, 2012 05:41PM

During the Sunday afternoon session of Gen. Conf., LDS Apostle Jeffrey Holland told Latter-day Saints:

"When Joseph Smith and his brother Hyrum started for Carthage to face what they knew would be an imminent martyrdom, Hyrum read these words to comfort the heart of his brother:

"Thou hast been faithful; wherefore . . . thou shalt be made strong, even unto the sitting down in the place which I have prepared in the mansions of my Father.

"And now I, Moroni, bid farewell . . . until we shall meet before the judgment-seat of Christ."

A few short verses from the 12th chapter of Ether in the Book of Mormon. Before closing the book, Hyrum turned down the corner of the page from which he had read, marking it as part of the everlasting testimony for which these two brothers were about to die. I hold in my hand that book, the very copy from which Hyrum read, the same corner of the page turned down, still visible."

Holland's talk is online at http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TMWK20vZFwQ
(or http://broadcast.lds.org/genconf/2009/10/50/GC_2009_10_503_HollandJR___eng_.mp4)

However, the Book of Mormon read by Hyrum and mentioned in D&C 135 was previously identified in the LDS Church's news as belonging to Bathsheba Smith, the Wife of Geo. A. Smith (ref. http://www.ldschurchnews.com/articles/50543/Fabric-of-history-Geo-A-and-Bathsheba-Smith-artifacts-donated-to-Church.html)

The book has her name inscribed on the front, and Hyrum's dog-ear folds over about four lines of type (on the folded-over corner):

http://img24.imageshack.us/img24/9084/16658.jpg
http://img40.imageshack.us/img40/4585/16653m.jpg

Holland's copy has no inscription on the front cover, and the dog-ear turns over about ten lines of text:

http://img32.imageshack.us/img32/2284/bookwave.png
http://img32.imageshack.us/img32/1487/bookfront.png
http://img183.imageshack.us/img183/354/smithbook.png

Holland didn't inform members of the following 'faith-disrupting' historical facts:

"Smith faced growing opposition among his former supporters in Nauvoo, and he "was stunned by the defections of loyal followers." Chief among the dissidents was William Law, Smith's second counselor in the First Presidency, who was well respected in the Mormon community. Law's disagreement with Smith was partly economic. But the most significant difference between the two was Law's opposition to plural marriage. There is even evidence that Smith propositioned the wives of both Law and his associate Robert D. Foster. Law and others gave testimonies at the county seat in Carthage that resulted in three indictments being brought against Smith, including one accusing him of polygamy. On May 26, just a few weeks before his death, Smith spoke before a large crowd of the Saints in front of the uncompleted temple and once again denied having any more than one wife."

"Unlike earlier dissenters Law had enough money to buy a printing press and publish a newspaper called the Nauvoo Expositor. Its only edition, published on June 7, 1844, contained affidavits testifying that the signers had heard Smith read a revelation giving every man the privilege of marrying ten virgins. The paper also attacked the attempt to "christianize a world by political schemes and intrigue" and denounced "false doctrines" such as "doctrines of many Gods," which, the paper said, Smith had recently revealed in his King Follett discourse. The newspaper also refused to "acknowledge any man as king or lawgiver to the church."

Smith declared the Expositor a "nuisance." On June 10, the Nauvoo city council passed an ordinance about libels; and Smith, as mayor, ordered the city marshal to destroy the paper. Press, type, and newspapers were dragged into the street and burned. Smith argued that destroying the paper would lessen the possibility of anti-Mormon settlers attacking Nauvoo; but as Richard Bushman [LDS historian and author] has written, he "failed to see that suppression of the paper was far more likely to arouse a mob than the libels. It was a fatal mistake."

"Nauvoo Mormons feared reprisals from the non-Mormons, and non-Mormons were apprehensive about the Nauvoo Legion, especially after Smith, fearing for his life, declared martial law on June 18. Illinois Governor Thomas Ford, desperately trying to prevent civil war, then mobilized the state militia. The governor promised Smith that he would provide protection if Smith would stand trial at Carthage for the destruction of the newspaper. Smith ordered the Legion to disarm but then fled across the Mississippi to Iowa. Emma warned Joseph that Nauvoo residents believed he had left due to cowardice and that they feared reprisals from local mobs. Smith returned to Illinois on June 23, gave himself up, and was taken to Carthage to stand trial."

(ref. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Joseph_Smith#Dissent_in_Nauvoo)

Who first had the idea to destroy the Nauvoo Expositor press? George Harris, church member (since 1834) and acting associate justice on the Nauvoo city council. "The minutes of the meeting record: "Alderman Harris spoke from the chair, and expressed his feelings that the press ought to be demolished."'

"In early 1838, amidst growing dissent and legal problems, Joseph Smith fled Kirtland, Ohio for Far West, Missouri. A leader in Far West, George Harris met Joseph and Emma upon their arrival. Joseph wrote: "We were immediately received under the hospitable roof of George W. Harris who treated us with all kindness possible. here we refreshed ourselves with much satisfaction after our long and tedious journey.". The Smiths lived in the Harris home for two months before moving into a home of their own."

Perhaps very significantly, George Harris was the husband of Lucinda Harris, the first married woman whom Joseph Smith made his plural wife (in 1838).

"The date of the marriage between Joseph and Lucinda is uncertain. Sarah Pratt, a friend of Lucinda’s (and wife of Apostle Orson Pratt), indicated that the wedding occurred sometime during Joseph’s stay in Missouri."

(ref. http://www.wivesofjosephsmith.org/03-LucindaMorganHarris.htm)

'Prophet' and church president Joseph Smith 'repaid' the kindness of George and Lucinda Harris by pursuing and marrying George's wife, which must have been a HUGE shock to him if he found out about it or suspected that something was going on between Lucinda and Joseph.

Did George Harris suggest that the Nauvoo Expositor printing press be destroyed knowing that Joseph Smith, Nauvoo's mayor, would issue the destruction order, thereby getting himself in serious legal trouble (violation of the First Amendment/freedom of the press) and via his incarceration, get JS away from his wife, Lucinda? Possibly.

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Posted by: Makurosu ( )
Date: January 04, 2012 06:17PM

Their lips are moving.

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Posted by: Misfit ( )
Date: January 04, 2012 07:10PM

LOL! Good one! I remember half-listening to that talk while my DW watched it on air. Every TBM I know thought it was such a powerful address. All I could think was, "there are so many problems with the BofM, and Holland didn't address a single one of them. All he's doing is appealing to emotion."

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Posted by: Makurosu ( )
Date: January 04, 2012 07:35PM

Someone here on RfM described it at the time as Holland "ranting and raving and waving around a Book of Mormon." That's how it seemed to me for sure.

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Posted by: Calypso ( )
Date: January 04, 2012 07:32PM

I'm glad you continue to update us with your findings Angelina! It's really interesting seeing it all unwind with someone whose just starting to figure out the truth...I hope you continue to do your research and keep reading/posting on these boards!! There are some insanely awesome and supportive people on here...I truly wish you all the best and I'm so happy for you for beginning the journey out. It'll be tough but I promise you will feel so incredibly free:)

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