Hi there - I've read so many forums debunking Mormonism, and, I finally consider myself an ex-mormon and even consider it a cult. However, I still believe in salvation through Jesus Christ...does anybody out there still believe in the Bible?

Getting swallowed by a whale and using it as a taxi?

Build the earth in 6 days?

World wide flood and riding it out in a backyard project boat with all the animals?

There is no way I believe in the Bible.

On Jesus, I'm content to wonder.

I think you have lots of company, but not so much at this particular site. Those that post most frequently seem to be, as a rule, atheist or agnostic. Some, as you will see, are completely hostile to belief in Jesus and salvation of one's soul by grace through faith in him.

I think many former mormons had their thinking so polluted by mormonism that any idea of God or Jesus that differs from what they were taught, what was drilled into them, is incomprehensible. Mormonism, in its essence, is a works-based faith. Jesus turns that upside down.

With that said, I also believe that atheists are actually more likely to come to an actual faith in Jesus than any diehard TBM. I mean, at least an ex mormon has had the character to reject an obvious lie. Many know it is a lie but still live it.

and THAT'S why we're atheists. Think about it. :-)

In learning to overcome the structure of the Mormon game of entrapment, you may see how the trick is worked.

After that it is possible to see the same setup in other organizations. So if a group of Ex-Mormons end up as Agnostic or Athiest it should not be a surprise.

As for Faith....it's a personal choice that does not require evidence.

I don't know whether or not he existed. I've seen some interesting evidence from both sides. But if he did exist, I'm pretty sure that he was just a man.

You can't believe in the church of Joseph Smith and believe in Jesus because there are just too many differences. He does, however, come down to guide people out of Mormonism because a corporate cult with his name just makes him furious.

I still believe in Jesus but have rejected the idea that decent people need to pay a church for salvation. You might say it's a different Jesus, more like the one described in Deepok Chopra's "The Third Christ."

I still believe in Jesus. There's no real question as to weather or not the actual MAN existed, its just a question of weather or not people believe he performed those miracles and died for us.

Which I believe he did. I may not have a whole lot of scientific proof, but I choose to believe it.

Even if it could be proven that he had no devine abilities, still he was an extremely kind, loving and wise man. Even if he was just an ordinary human, we could still learn a lot of important things from him.

Just because there is a "possibility" that something MIGHT not be true, doesn't mean you can't believe it.

I understand that there are people in this world who just feel more secure sticking to "facts". But that's just not interesting or exciting enough for me. And it also makes me feel 10 times worse about wonderful and unique people passing away. That sucks enough without it being at its absolute worst on top of it.

I think we should maintain some hope and wonder in this life. Something to keep us feeling like there are good possibilities ahead. When people lose hope, tey go crazy and just say "to heck with it all", and give up. But who wants to feel like that? We may as well be happy while we are here. Just don't get so carried away with it, that you form a cult.

I think individual religion is ok. As in you keep it in your heart and follow what you feel is right. But keep a very close eye on any kind of organized religion. If you enjoy being in a room full of other people who believe in god, or at the very least some kind of creator or afterlife-- then go "chruch hopping". Visit several different chruches/religious houses, and just appreciate the wisdom they have to offer. Just don't get so tied up into any one particular church, to the point that you're in the same situation you were in with LDS.



Edited 4 time(s). Last edit at 11/17/2010 10:52PM by melissa3839.

I would like to think history is full of some enlightened people who were sent to help the human race get along better. If anything I view these teachings as tools up for grabs to use and hopefully make our lives better.

I don't believe in turning over our own personal sovereignty to a clergy or a church. I believe we hold full responsibility there but the teachings of Jesus are good tools to help us be the best we can be.

Do I believe in a second coming? Nope.

I like jesus' teachings and I believe he was an historical person. I have doubts about his dvinity and miracles. He was a human being, although an unusual one..

bona dea Wrote:
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> I like jesus' teachings and I believe he was an
> historical person. I have doubts about his dvinity
> and miracles. He was a human being, although an
> unusual one..


My feelings exactly.

you mean do I believe the savior of worlds without number lived just yesterday a caucasian male 1,998,000 years into the 2,000,000 year presence of humanity?

No.

That's like believing my neighbor down the street is the savior.

RFM Admin threatened to delete my posts if I comment. This board does not want a lot of controversy on the subject of "Jesus". Therefore, you will not find an answer on what to believe. As far as I'm concerned, there is a lot of online information regarding mythology, and not worth my effort to educate all the people who come here looking for an answer on this subject. In the end, you will believe what you want.

Mrs. Estzerhaus Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> RFM Admin threatened to delete my posts if I
> comment. This board does not want a lot of
> controversy on the subject of "Jesus". Therefore,
> you will not find an answer on what to believe. As
> far as I'm concerned, there is a lot of online
> information regarding mythology, and not worth my
> effort to educate all the people who come here
> looking for an answer on this subject. In the end,
> you will believe what you want.

Huh? We discuss this all the time. So long as no one is preaching, there isn't a problem that I am aware of.

No, you must not be aware. As for "preaching" both sides could be accused of that. Believers point to the unbeliever side as "uneducated" for questioning circular sources while you stay up late to get in the last word on every post. Eventually this tactic has forced Admin to ask for no more posts on the subject. I have had posts deleted. Questioners who can't follow the money, and ask harder questions will find what they want.

Mrs. Estzerhaus Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> No, you must not be aware. As for "preaching" both
> sides could be accused of that. Believers point to
> the unbeliever side as "uneducated" for
> questioning circular sources while you stay up
> late to get in the last word on every post.
> Eventually this tactic has forced Admin to ask for
> no more posts on the subject. I have had posts
> deleted. Questioners who can't follow the money,
> and ask harder questions will find what they want.
I remmber administraton asking us to lay off the historical Jesus for a while when it was dominating the board. That was a while ago and we did just that. The key words were 'for a while'. I can't comment on why your posts were deleted, but there have been many threads on the subject since and administration has let them pass. Therefore, I am assuming the subject isn't taboo.

I'm an atheist, but I love the religious music of Mozart and Bach and the art and architecture of the old churches. I can't get into the born-again thing though.

Atheist and goddamn proud of it.
Not to offend Christians, but I don't see much evidence for Jesus, or a sadistic, filicidal sky daddy -- there's no need for them either, in my opinion.
I mean what did you do so horribly wrong that you must be roasted in hell for all eternity?

Yes. I do.

I do! Note rge god of Mormism, but the one of the Bible, the one who said, that 'by Grace we are saved' and not of our own and the Law with its ordinances was nailed to the cross.

it's done with. No more worrying about anything. I belong to him and am a member of His church, which is many different ppl. who go to many differen church buildings, but are HIS, the moment I put my trust in Him alone and not a man-made org.

I'm glad there are a few here who do believe. It was getting lonely here). But I understand why some turned away from God. Joseph Smith,Young and many will pay for the damage done to so many!

I don't follow Jesus or the Bible religions, but I didn't abandon the god concept. There are other theologies beyond the Bible, it's not just a choice between Jesus or atheism. I'm a yogi and devotee of Shiva and Shakti.

Give me all your money, and you can partake in ever lasting life.

Please make out all checks out to "cash."

I do not believe the Bible to be anything more that an ancient set of literature written by men.

What led me to that conclusion was studying the New Testament in Greek and the Hebrew Bible in Hebrew. As well as archaeology. The verse in Isaiah that Christians use to "prove" the virgin birth is a mistranslation. The word in the Greek is parthenos which means virgin. However the word in Hebrew is almah which means young woman. The word in Hebrew for virgin is Betulah.

Also, if you compare very closely what Jesus taught it is ostensibly Jewish and Paul's teachings completely conflict with the teachings of Jesus.

Archaeologically the Five Books of Moses didn't happen as they were reported. There is no evidence of the exodus and no evidence of the conquest of Canaan.

So no, I do not believe in the Bible. And I do not need a savior. I will take responsibility for my own mistakes thank you. Any God who requires his son to be killed and who cannot accept his creation since he made us this way (I do not believe in a God btw) is not worthy of being worshipped.

The use of the word "believe" indicates that there is no verifiable proof as to the existence of something.

I don't have to believe in my truck, my house, my computer, my television set, etc. I KNOW for a fact that they exist. But since neither Jesus or God has ever visited me in person (the type of visit that I can record on a video) then I have no verifiable proof that they exist.

According to organized religions I need to "believe" in Jesus and/or God. I am not willing to do that without verifiable proof. So if Jesus or God ever choose to knock on my front door and pay me a visit that I can video tape then I will know that they exist. Until that happens I refuse to believe in them.

The above is my detailed answer. My short answer is "No, I don't believe in Jesus."

well said, SS.

Yes, I do.

Me too. Faith is a mysterious thing. I don't pretend to understand it, or to expect others to share it.

But there it is.

It's kind of like conscience, or an appreciation of art. Like ethics and aesthetics, science hasn't come up with much more than speculative explanations of religious faith. But faith is so widespread that it can't be easily dismissed as simply a sort of hallucination. Absent an alternative explanation, it seems reasonable to accept it for what it appears to be: the perception of things not seen, as Paul describes it. This is also the way, and the reason, that we accept our sensory perceptions, which constitute most of the axioms of our reasoning.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 11/18/2010 07:20AM by oddcouplet.

You know this how ? You have evidence ? Lets see it.

looks like your lives revolve around bogus claims.

Dave the Atheist Wrote:
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> You know this how ? You have evidence ? Lets see
> it.
>
> looks like your lives revolve around bogus claims.

So do atheist/agnostic scholars amd I'll go with them instead of you, if you don't mind.

in the power of Christ as a psychological figure who has a powerful effect on how many people experience themselves and others. However, that figure can be very different for various individuals and groups, sometimes resulting in great good and compassion but too often resulting in the opposite. You see this split in the New Testament itself where in the Gospels, on the whole, Jesus is portrayed as compassionate and loving but in the Revelation of John, Christ returns as an avenger and killer.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 11/18/2010 03:34AM by robertb.

http://www.caesarsmessiah.com/Books/books.html
"
Who was Jesus?

Why is there no historic archaeological evidence of his existence?

Who wrote the Gospels?

Why were they written in Greek, rather than Hebrew or Aramaic?

How did the Christian religion come to be centered in Rome?

Why were the first Christian pope and earliest saints all members of the Flavius Caesar ruling family?
"

additionally i remember reading about points like:

* render unto caesar what is caesar's

* if anyone smite thee turn the other cheek

* the messiah character was completely different than what the prophecies of the jews had told about

when you put things into this perspective it seems highly probably that this books thesis is true...



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 11/18/2010 03:45AM by Nick Humphrey.

I've maintained for a long time that the Christian Church was the product of the Hellenized Paul and the Romans. That is is to far removed from Judaism to be ostensibly Jewish and that they usurped the Hebrew scriptures as a means to put down Judaism.

Without a doubt I still believe in the divinity of Jesus Christ.

I also believe in Jesus. I am very against organized religion,but I love going to my church when I want to. I want my 2 youngest to be exposed to so they can decide for themselves as they grow up. But I am sooooo grateful to be out of the mormon cult. And in no way is my church like the mormon church. I come and go as I please,enjoying very much when I am there.

I don't know. I've heard a lot of arguments from both sides. However, regardless of whether or not someone named Jesus existed, he certainly wasn't divine. (IMO) Believing in someone being raised from the dead goes against all logical thinking. (Again, IMO)

According to the Jesus myth, he was resurrected three days after his death. Believers never address the question of how that is possible. And they ignore known biological science.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Decomposition

Bodies of living organisms begin to decompose shortly after death. It is a cascade of processes that go through distinct phases. Reading about body decomposition is not recommended for people who are faint of heart, but it is very educational.

To sum it up, a body that has been dead for three days cannot simply come back to life. That person would need a 100% brand new body in order to live once again.

What I have noticed is that diehard TBMs who leave the church are more likely to be agnostic, while those who were involved with another faith are more likely to retain a belief. I was methodist, then lds for 35 years and then resigned. I have attended a large evangelical church for the last 7 years, and yes, I believe in Christ. There are many parts of mormonism that dilute, distort, crush the relationship that is possible with Christ. I think it is important to have a spiritual component in our lives, but with mormonism it is too often legalistic, exploitive,and creates a barrier between the believer and God.

In my experience people can make themselves 'believe' in anything they want to, regardless of any relevant facts or evidences.

Some people truly believe that the Holocaust didn't happen. That it was made up propaganda. Despite the evidence of this terrible terrible event people still choose to believe it is a myth.

Proof and facts don't work for everyone.

The moment 'man' is involved then you have the issues of personal preference, personal agenda's, differing morals and values.

Who's to say that what is written in the Bible is correct and not a fabrication to suit the writers viewpoint or agenda.
Look at he difference in the accounts of the events in Gethsemane.
In Mark you get a fairly straightforward account of Jesus being troubled and praying a couple of times.
In Luke (which was written at a later date and used the writings in Mark as a source) tells of Jesus praying so intently he sweated in such large amounts it was as if he was bleeding with perspiration.
Which account accurately portrays the events that took place?
Is one underplayed or one overplayed for effect?

We don't 'know' but we can choose to 'believe'.

The reality for us mere mortals is that there does not need to be a correlation between 'belief' and 'knowledge'.

Was Jesus a real person?
I don't know, but I choose to believe.

You bet I do. I will never give up on Jesus. Sure a story here and there is hard to believe but that is not the point. The point is that his words are either thought of as "the way" or not. I think his words ring true. And a spiritual life is very important to me.

how about these words?:
"But those mine enemies, which would not that I should reign over them, bring hither, and slay them before me."
http://scriptures.lds.org/en/luke/19/27#27

Spirituality and true "words" do not necessarily mean that Jesus was divine. I happen to really like the teachings of Jesus. The core teachings. They are very Jewish. I put Jesus in the same camp as Rabbi Hillel the Elder who taught the Golden rule and living right before Jesus did. Who knows, maybe the Jesus figure was taken from Hillel.

Look at the various spiritual people around the world. I've known many very spiritual people who were not Christian.

I personally have lost all faith in Jesus. I don't think that he's historical, but made up by a group of very well-meaning, intelligent people. I haven't done too much research, so I can't back myself up, however, when I came back from my mission, I wanted to hold onto faith in him. That was until I found a group of people to hang out with, which were members of a group called SHAFT at USU. They had some interesting points to make about the historicity of Jesus, and how HE'S A CONGLOMERATE, GELATINOUS MASS OF HISTORICAL MISHMASH, or something like that. I'll have to research more in order to know my facts, but that's the view that I have.

If you take all his sayings and actions together and expect them to be basically consistent...especially for a divine being...then I think the character of Jesus is made up from many tales.

I can't see the Jesus who said Blessed are the meek being the same one that cursed and killed a little fig tree because it had no fruit on its branches.

Or the Jesus who said love one another with the Jesus who dissed his mother and called her "woman".

I "believe" this is a made up fictionaly character.

Yes. He wheels a taco roach coach in my neighborhood. "Taqueria Jalisco Jesus".

Ron

absolutely with no qualifications.

There are very few of us on this board.

For 4 thousand years, the Isrealites sacrificed their firstborn, unblemished sheep or other animals in anticipation of a firstborn son Saviour. The Jews still celebrate passover, unleavened bread and all. All over the world Christians partake of some kind of sacrament in memory of Jesus. Even the Muslims claim Abraham as their father.

Jesus would be Jewish, coming from the lineage of Abraham, Isreal, and David. He was crucified for calling himself the "I Am", the God of the OT.

Who else has claimed to be the Saviour of sins, gave the gift of the resurrection to all man, the only son of God, the creator of the world?

Among others, this guy:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1XcDTKoWxWQ

6 iron Wrote:
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>
> Who else has claimed to be the Saviour of sins,
> gave the gift of the resurrection to all man, the
> only son of God, the creator of the world?




David Koresh

Yes I do.
Admittedly, there have been many times when I have less belief like when I discovered the Mithras and Horus similarities. Being a person who likes to look into things it is easy for me to see more than I want to see.

As for the bible itself, it is known that many things in it were later inserted to the text and how much of it is genuine to Jesus' time is hard to tell. But the New Testament is of great value.

However, I do not accept such stories as Genesis, Noah, Balaam, Jericho, and in general reject most of the Old Testament for its needless violence in which the Israelites invent commandments from God in order to justify their horrific actions.

We also know that when Isiah is going on and on about the righteous king, he is talking about Hezekiah and not the Christ. And we know that the Canaanites are the same people as the Israelites, and that all the murder committed by the Israelites against them was not the protection against a type of people, but of politics.

No, it is hard to accept the Old Testament as having any value to those who seek to know God. At least, the God as made manifest in the person of Christ.

On a side note, it was when I was a TBM that I began to seriously question whether I believed in God, in Jesus Christ and it wasn't until I left the church that I began to realize that it was because the church hijacks a persons faith and replaces it with dogged determination to endure to the end, and to serve the church for the sake of the church and that keeping the temple as our focal point removes Jesus entirely from the picture (as evidenced by the creepy feeling you get in the temple...there is no actualy holiness there).

In fact, the times that I have felt the spirit the most, has been outside of the church. One time I went with mny wife to another church and the spirit I felt there was something I will never forget. It became somewhat of a measuring stick against which aI measured my spiritual experiences in the LDS church and always always came up short.

Despite the pain and confusion of realizing that the church of my life was false, leaving it has been the cause for my faith in Christ to grow dramatically, for it is almost as if a veil has been lifted from my eyes.

Yes I do.
I did before the morg came into my life, so I believe the way I look at things is different to someone born as a mo. Those born into the church seem to have a difficult time when they leave the morg. Everything is based on what the morg taught them. IMO.
I was able to switch off and got back to what I call basics.

I'm not preaching, just saying. I believe everyone has an opinion and is entitled to it.

I go along with JoD3:360 and feel that I too have been released from confusion, am able to think for myself and enjoy the thoughts that come into my mind. A brain, I have a brain and will use it. No-one will ever have control over me again.

Yup, but I keep my 'beliefs' to my self most of the time, and I will NOT push my beliefs onto others unless provoked. My TBM mo-inlaws don't bring up religious discussions with me because I can make mo-ism out to what it really is - a fraud.

I'm 10 times the parents that they are and I left the church 9 years ago. I lead a much better, and healthier life than they could imagine and I haven't paid a dime in tithes for 9-10 years.

I think mo-ism destroys the foundation that Jesus built. I think it's more of an ours is right or nothing is right attitude. The very premise of TSCC is that the first church, the one that Jesus himself started fell away. If the son of God can't build a church and have it succeed, then it is no church.

I tend to think along the lines that the Bible was written and compiled in a way that benefits man and churches of the day when it was written. Why does a spiritual book need so much to do with money? If there was no bible, would there still be God? Yes. Too many Christians today cannot grasp that, and the mo church helps degrade that thought.

I fully believe that man cannot understand God, and that we are not meant to understand. God does not follow the rules of man-established science. That's what makes God, God.

Enough of this rant, I could go on for hours, but you guys probably stopped reading after the first paragraph..

what's not to like about: "Love One Another," and other teachings of human decency, etc.

I love much of the traditional music written for religious purposes that has survived over the decades and centuries.
I often listen to and sing the old church standards --music about Jesus and God. It's a big part of my heritage also. It's filled with some of the best family memories!

I use the term God as a metaphor for what we don't understand.
There are thousands of Gods, female ones long predate male ones in human history.

The atheist default position: non belief in the unsupported theist claim that god exists.

I am agnostic an take the default position.

That position does not prohibit me from enjoying the God Myths, the music, the pageantry, the universal teachings.
I have concluded I don't need a personal savior for an after life.

Yes I do. I keep my spiritual thoughts and feelings private for the most part. I don't try to preach to anyone, and I'll never belong to another church. I think believing in a religion and believing in Christ are two very different things.

I think a better question than do you simply believe in Christ? is, what is it about the Christ figure that you need in your life? The why is the most important.

As I have stated before, I do not need a savior. I like the things that Jesus taught but he is not the pinnacle. Others have taught the same principles.

I do love ritual. I think that ritual is missing from many of our lives. And I enjoy taking part in High Ritual such as performed int he Greek Orthodox Church. But I would be fine with ritual from any belief system unless it did human or animal sacrifice.

I'm currently doing some study of the Zohar (Kabbalism). It has interesting philosophies. So I still like to study religion. It is just that I do not believe in a God. But I do not know if there is one or not.