I am an atheist. But Mormonism screwed me in ways that Christianity never did and never ever threatened to do in my wildest imaginings.

I am recovering from Mormonism.

I am not recovering from mystical beliefs or some zealous adherence to miracles in the Bible.

I am not recovering from my paternal Grandparents' Baptist faith or my maternal Grandparents' Episcoplianism or my Mom's Evangelical lite or her Catholic lite faith or my Sister's family's serious working class Catholicism or from the Buddhists or Unitarians I hung out with in college.

The only "religion" that hammered my life, made me regret EVER knowing anyone connected to it, robbing me of my children and wife, and nailing me with anxiety and stress and a sense of not being good enough was MORMONISM. I was converted in 2002. By 2005 I was having doubts. By 2007 I was squirming to get free. I couldn't bring myself to stop going until early 2010. I've been writing on exmo recovery boards since 2007.

Mormonism takes dysfunction to a whole other level beyond mainstream Christianity, whatever the latter's impossibilities and absurdities. I think what redeems and gentles much of mainstream Christianity is the grace-laden view of its doctrine of Christ. Versus the Salt Lake City Mormon church, with its works doctrines and diminishment of Christ's role, mainstream Christianity is harmless. There is no polygamy sickness or revelation mania in mainstream Christianity and the priesthood sickness of Mormonism, despite the Catholics and their disgrace, leads to all sorts of loopiness, elitism, self-righteous pride, and "ecclesiastical" abuse.

Mormonism shares some superficial things with MAINSTREAM Christianity. But it probably shares more psychological substance with orthodox Islam.

The intergenerational totalitarianism of Mormonism goes way beyond what mainstream Christians have. The way Mormonism tries to chain and enslave related people to the same faith is monstrous. Mormonism's practice of heavy indoctrination and absolute disparagement of critical thought is the recipe of fanatics the world over. The number of social controls that Mormonism has evolved go way beyond what we see in mainstream Christianity.

So yes, I give mainstream Christianity a pass that I will never give Mormonism, and that's mostly because the Mormons have hurt me personally so badly (and continue to do so), but I wouldn't give an inch to JWs or Scientologists or Moonies or Peoples' Temple followers or Davidians or any FLDS group either. I am now not allergic to any and all religion as you seem to be. I am allergic to any group that shows destructive and controlling cult characteristics.

If a faith can truly respect individual conscience and show real tolerance, even within a family, not interfering with those family relationships, then that religious group is way down on my $4!t list. Mormons are at the top of it. It's personal. A so-called religious group has no right to interfere with family relationships like the Mormons do. That's why all Mormons, despite the over-the-top earnestness and smiles, are enemies of love and family bonds. They are out to harm people plain and simple, in ways that the local Presbyterians or Methodists don't hold a candle to.

Damaging and absurd theological systems, like you say, can have similarities. Mormonism and Christianity share a lot of negative parallels in that regard, IMO, regardless of your effort to shrug them off based on your own limited experience.

And just like those who don't give Mormonism a pass, there are also those who don't give Christianity a pass.

Your situation may vary.

I don't cut passes to any religious abuse, Mormon or otherwise--even if you do call it "mainstream."



Edited 7 time(s). Last edit at 11/28/2011 01:56AM by steve benson.

Here is why your position is so unreasonable Steve: You have a chance to stop the Quakers or the Mormons. Which group are you going to spend your limited time and energy fighting and putting an end to?

Don't ignore the question. Do not attempt to bypass it. Just answer it. Which group would you stop?

If you cannot or if you refuse to answer that question then you are drinking fanatic juice (aka Kool-aid).

The all-or-none, black-and-white, fanatical thinking that cannot see degrees of harm ranging from tolerant mainstream religions to destructive, power-hungry cults, and then prioritize action against them according to urgency and need, is HELPFUL TO THE DESTRUCTIVE CULTS because it dissipates focus on them and allows them to hide behind and be confused with less harmful groups. The Mormons in fact work hard to be confused with mainstream Protestant faiths.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 11/28/2011 02:46PM by derrida.

in other news: god and jesus are superficial things...

If the pattern had never existed, you probably wouldn't have anything to recover from. Just a thought.

People have beliefs, opinions, principles, etc. that they live outside of religion that are not based on "objective truths." Those beliefs are also subjective and relative, not able to be proven as correct. And, they can be destructive, just like religious beliefs. A little relativity perspective in all things seems to make sense to me.

A religious belief system can destroy someone and a non-religious belief system can do the same. And all of the grades in between. Agreed, a religious belief system lends itself to being destructive, period. But, there can be grades and people progress in steps. Whether its a religious or non-religious based belief system.


I probably should shut up because I don't have any idea what its like to go through the mormon wringer as a participant.

2 ... thousand ... years.

Look around, everyone. How many people do you know personally who were dead, buried then one day showed back up "un-dead" and started their lives over again as living people?

It doesn't happen now...and it didn't happen then.

Another hint: if a man says he has golden plates, then he just shows the plates. Particularly if man says that the first time he tried to pick up the plates they were protected by an electric force-field.

These plates can be shown, and if the man tells you god told him not to show them to YOU, then you know he's liar.

Case closed. No plates.

This is how the world works, folks. Dead people stay dead and no one gets golden plates and then won't show them to you.


Period.

"Millions of innocent men, women and children, since the introduction of Christianity, have been burnt, tortured, fined and imprisoned. What has been the effect of this coercion? To make one half the world fools and the other half hypocrites"

--Thomas Jefferson," Notes on Virginia," 1782



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 11/28/2011 02:45AM by steve benson.

there's no excuse for believing the dead guy's blood saves billions of people from their mostly intangible sins. No excuse. Even if he was a real guy, even if we still had some of his blood. I don't care how nice he was. Blood does not do that.

The entire psychological foundation is different. Faith vs. works is one way to put it. It also helps that modern mainstream Christianity has evolved, in part because strict adherance to beliefs and doctrines is not insisted upon. I've been asserting for a while now that Mormonism is stuck in a mentality from 40-50 years ago.

I think that you have to go back to the effect that a religion or belief system has on the believer -- does it help in terms of psychological health and resilience and prosocial behaviors? For many, modern mainstream Christianity is a net good. But Mormonism, which insists on absurd amounts of time and indoctrination on the part of members is often psychologically damaging.

In most christian churches, one can come and go as one pleases, and one can donate as much money or time into it as one wants to.
There is no room for that in the Mormon church. You are either IN, or you are OUT. You are either with us, or against us. And there is to easy way OUT.
You give 10% of your total income, OR ELSE. You accept a calling and give 10-30 hours a week of what used to be your free time to the church, OR ELSE.
Mainstream Christianity gets a pass in my book because they believe in free agency. Mormonism doesn't believe in free agency, so they don't get a pass from me.

Or dare resist Jesus as your Savior and read how the Biblical Jesus condemns you, as a result of your decision to disobey, to hell.

Try being an atheist in an overwhelmingly superstitious Christian society and see how far that gets you in public life.

Track the innumerable cases where Christian zealots across this land have belligeretly attempted to inject their brand of religiousity into public life at the expense of free will, in violation of the constitutional wall separating state and church.

The mind of many a Christian believer is shackled by its disasterous and ignorant dogma, with which they then try to enslave the minds of the nation and the world. Religion loves company.

Again, Thomas Jefferson:

"Millions of innocent men, women and children, since the introduction of Christianity, have been burnt, tortured, fined and imprisoned. What has been the effect of this coercion? To make one half the world fools and the other half hypocrites"

--"Notes on Virginia," 1782



Edited 5 time(s). Last edit at 11/28/2011 11:49AM by steve benson.

I don't know of a single mainstream Christian that believes in a literal hell. IMO most Christians take a cafeteria approach to their religion because they can. No one is going to disfellowship them, excommunicate them, or take away their temple recommends.

As I said above, Christianity has evolved, and is still evolving to keep up with the times. Mormonism is pretty far behind the curve. Mormonism has also institutionalized dysfunctional, controlling, and psychologically unhealthy behavior.

You attempting to deny that fact is like Mormons dishonestly insisting that their own canonized doctrine isn't White supremacist in nature.

Moreover, Christianity, in fact, has a long history of institutionalized, dysfunctional, controlling and psychologically unhealthy behavior.

Read Wendell W. Watters, "Deadly Doctrine: Health, Illness and Christian God-Talk" (Buffalo, New York: Prometheus Books, 1992, 198 pp). Watters adds a word of warning on his book's cover: "Caution--Christianity may be hazardous to your heath!" (Watters authored his work as professor emeritus in psychiatry at McMaster Universwity, Hamilton, Ontario, Canada).



Edited 9 time(s). Last edit at 11/28/2011 12:04PM by steve benson.

steve benson Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Moreover, Christianity, in fact, has a long history of institutionalized, dysfunctional, controlling and psychologically unhealthy behavior.

I'm not going to disagree. I'm just saying that they've largely moved past that.

There is a greater tolerance among current mainstream Christian churches in terms of allowing believers to think for themselves. As I said there is no disfellowshipping, excommunication, shunning, gossip, nor pulling of recommends. IMO most Christians wouldn't dream of putting up with the type of controlling, boundary pushing behavior that Mormons routinely put up with.

Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 11/28/2011 01:14PM by steve benson.

"According to a 2004 Gallup Poll, 70% of Americans believe in hell. Belief in hell is highest among regular churchgoers: 92% of those who attend church weekly believe in hell, as do 74% of those who attend nearly weekly."

("Christian Beliefs on Hell," at: http://www.religionfacts.com/christianity/beliefs/hell.htm)


And let's not forget those Southern Baptists:

"The Southern Baptist Convention affirmed the reality of a literal hell June 15 in a resolution responding to Rob Bell’s Love Wins book that challenges traditional thinking about eternal damnation.

"Citing Bell’s book, the SBC resolution affirmed 'belief in the biblical teaching on eternal, conscious punishment of the unregenerate in Hell.” It implored Southern Baptists to “proclaim faithfully the depth and gravity of sin against a holy God, the reality of Hell, and the salvation of sinners by God’s grace alone, through faith alone, in Jesus Christ alone, to the glory of God alone.'"



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 11/28/2011 12:41PM by steve benson.

I must know the other 30%! But I don't live in the bible belt, that's for sure.

That's interesting. Could you name some of these mainstream religions that maintain the literal existence of Hell?

"It is impossible to describe the glory and splendor of heaven and the terror and torment of hell. Whether taken literally or figuratively, the meaning is the same: Hell is a place where one will experience total separation from God; heaven enjoys the total presence of God. Knowing that this is the horrible end awaiting the wicked, the Assemblies of God is strongly motivated to win the lost before it is too late." (Assemblies of God)

"The statement of Christ in Matthew 25, and elsewhere, are taken at face value. It is believed that after death each man must come before God in judgment and that he will be judged according to the deeds done while he lived (Hebrews 9:27). After judgment is pronounced he will spend eternity either in heaven or hell." (Churches of Christ)

"We believe in the bodily resurrection of the dead; of the believer to everlasting blessedness and joy with the Lord; of the unbeliever to judgment and everlasting conscious punishment." (Evangelical Free Church of America)

"The moral progress of the soul, either for better or for worse, ends at the very moment of the separation of the body and soul; at that very moment the definite destiny of the soul in the everlasting life is decided. . . . The Orthodox Church believes that at this moment the soul of the dead person begins to enjoy ... the life in Paradise or to undergo the life in Hell. There is no way of repentance, no way of escape, no reincarnation and no help from the outside world." (Greek Orthodox Archdiocese of America)

("Christian Beliefs on Hell," at: http://www.religionfacts.com/christianity/beliefs/hell.htm)



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 11/28/2011 12:34PM by steve benson.

For now on --after checking the number of adherents of the denominations you provided for-- I must say and think "liberal Christianity" when I think "mainstream Christianity". I wouldn't think Assemblies of God (Pentecostal) mainstream, but by the numbers it appears it is (60-70 million).

Let's not forget the recent official endorsement by the Southern Baptist convention of a literal hell:

"The Southern Baptist Convention affirmed the reality of a literal hell June 15 in a resolution responding to Rob Bell’s 'Love Wins' book that challenges traditional thinking about eternal damnation.

"Citing Bell’s book, the SBC resolution affirmed 'belief in the biblical teaching on eternal, conscious punishment of the unregenerate in Hell.' It implored Southern Baptists to 'proclaim faithfully the depth and gravity of sin against a holy God, the reality of Hell, and the salvation of sinners by God’s grace alone, through faith alone, in Jesus Christ alone, to the glory of God alone.'

"Bell, pastor of Mars Hill Bible Church near Grand Rapids, Mich., says in the book that the message often conveyed that Jesus was sent to save sinners from eternal wrath prevents millions of people from wanting to have anything to do with Christianity."

("Southern Baptists Affirm Doctrine of Hell," by Bob Allen. "Associated Baptist Press," 15 June 2011, at: http://www.abpnews.com/content/view/6488/53/



Edited 5 time(s). Last edit at 11/28/2011 12:58PM by steve benson.

That almost nobody believes their reprobate uncle or mom or dad or son or daughter is actually in hell. They always figure God will figure out a way to save their beloved relative. Even Catholics won't out and out say for sure that someone is in hell -- even Pope John Paul II said that hell might be empty. And some church fathers believed that hell was eternal and some said that God only used hell as a means of correction. You can browse around the following web site for a different idea:

http://www.tentmaker.org

Greek Orthodox is pretty hardcore. I don't consider the other three to be mainstream. IMO they're more at the fundie end.

And Southern Baptists are also hardcore believers in a literal hell. They, too, are excommunicated from your mainstream?

I was responding to the four examples that you gave.

Southern Baptists, I don't know where to put them. Maybe at the furthest edges of the mainstream. Or perhaps they are the first to drop off of the fundie cliff. I would say that they're considered mainstream, but barely.

As I said above, I don't live in the bible belt, and whenever I've traveled there, it's rather eye-popping.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 11/28/2011 01:22PM by summer.

Apparently you are blowing off any and all Christians and their denominations who don't agree with your notions of hell.

In that respect, you seem to have the mindset of a Mormon apologist who denies contemporary versions of canonized scripture that don't fit with your own view. No offense, but the phenomenon you are displaying crosses believer boundaries from Mormon into the Christian world.



Edited 3 time(s). Last edit at 11/28/2011 01:31PM by steve benson.

I'm not blowing them off. I live in a different environment, as I said above, obviously it's with the other 30%. I've met lots of east coast, western, and west coast Christians (Catholics, Episcopalians, Lutherans, Methodists, UU's, etc.) They don't believe in a literal hell. But then again, they are generally well educated and not from the bible belt.

even if a church member differs on one doctrine or another, what is the church going to do, fire them? In most cases, there's no enforcement mechanism (disfellowshipping, excommunication, shunning, etc.) The churches have nothing to hold over their members. Hence if you are inclined to think differently, you can.

Most American Christians believe in a literal hell and that is precisely and specifically the issue you were attempting to debate--in the opposite direction.

As to the psychological dysfunctionality of unhealthy Christian beliefs, I have referred you to Watter's book. He also deals, by the way, with matters of control and denial of individual freedom within the historicaL Christian doctrinal mindset. I strongly suggest that you educate yourself outside of your simple, pre-set premises.



Edited 7 time(s). Last edit at 11/28/2011 01:51PM by steve benson.

Even Billy Graham quit preaching about a literal hell:

http://www.ovrlnd.com/Cults/poprejectshell.html

The problem with throwing around the word, "Christianity", is the multitude of variations and beliefs around the world. It's dizzying how many differences of opinions and beliefs there are.

I, for one, am leaning towards Gnostic Christianity which contrasts markedly from all other branches. My spiritual mileage has improved since embracing the Gnosticism.

"Christianity" isn't going away, it offers people hope and encouragement in any circumstance life throws at them. You are free to argue and disagree whether it is real or not, but to desperate and hurting people, it may be all they have.

So do you equate a follower of Zeus, who is generally known as demanding an exacting following of his doctrine with a follower of the more moderate Thor, who didn't care if people accepted his doctrine but took pleasure when people were friendly to each other?

mormonism bad ..... christianity good ?


religious illiteracy rears its ugly head once again !