Its been five years now since I dropped the bomb on my spouse that I didn’t believe. Looking back, I’ve realized that I made some mistakes in navigating the choppy waters of one spouse not believing and one remaining faithful. Here is a short list of those mistakes.

1. Anger – I concluded that I had been lied to by the church. Sometimes the anger that resulted from that would cause anger that would get expressed in ways that she perceived as attacks on her.

2. Patience – I had been dealing with my loss of belief for 18 months before I verbalized my disbelief to her. At times, I would become impatient in her for not coming to terms with it immediately.

3. Empathy – Her world had been turned upside down. I failed to realize that I would be in shock too had the tables been turned.

4. Respect – I failed to realize that my spouse had reasons for believing and that I had no right to belittle her or make her feel stupid.

5. Humility – I failed to recognize that I could be wrong too.

After the years our marriage is in a better place. My spouse has defined her relationship with the church on her own terms. She has softened on some things that I believe she held simply because she was told she should. And… I have tried very hard to correct those mistakes listed above. I’m just sayin’…

how to understand how the believing spouse is handling your decision to leave the LDS Church.

I like your list. You touch on some important elements some forget to think about.

I have posted how I make it work with a believing spouse. You touch on some of the points I have dealt with also.

Thank you for sharing that.

Marriage is difficult under the best circumstances. A dual faith marriage can be a nightmare and one where it is dual faith because one member changed is all too often a horror story.

Kudos to both you and your wife for sticking it out an navigating such a huge change in the parameters of your marriage. And more kudos to you for realizing your mistakes, working to correct them and for giving warnning to others who might end up in your position.

:D

I made the announcement about 5 years ago also, and my DW still believes (on her own terms). I made the same mistakes you did, and have suffered because of it. Glad to hear things are going better for you now. Best of luck to both of us. Hang in there.

Leaving the morg is on par with a tsunami in the way it causes a flood of emotion. It would take the wisdom of a sage and a TBM spouse that has some flexibility in their thinking to deal with it in the best way. That's a rare combination. Any kind of loving relationship that survives the transition is to be commended.

I am in year 5 of my morg departure, and I wish I could say we were doing as well. I could have handled it a lot better, but I am not so convinced that there is anything I could have done to keep it a loving marriage. I am hanging in there until the last kid turns 18. We are civil to each other and get along reasonably well. Yes, I know I am sure the kids can see through it. Don't know if I'm doing the best thing, but it's what I've chosen.

I was so angry when I finally told her the church was b.s. that it was an ugly argument that almost caused us to end the marriage. Even now when we debate church issues we end up angry at each other. If I had been unemotional when I told her, and shown her the devastation I had when I had my epiphany, I think it would have been much better.

Our marriage is good when we don't discuss the church. I still go to church with her about once month, and she no longer mentions my not wearing garments.

I have learned to not argue about religion and we get along fine. I'm still hoping someday she will get it, but I don't see that happening anytime soon.

except the last one. No you shouldn't recognize that your knowledge that the church might be wrong...it's provably false to anyone who still has the ability to think rationally about it.

No you shouldn't recognize that your knowledge that the church is false might be wrong...it's provably false to anyone who still has the ability to think rationally about it.

... scoring points or winning arguments anymore. I'm concerned with having the best marriage possible under the circumstances (and likewise providing my kids with the most stable homelife). I maintain that when the whole history of the church (good and bad facts) are processed through my brain, the church appears to be man-made institution with no supernatural guidance. The probability of this is extremely high in my estimation. Could there be a god that runs his show in a way that makes Joseph Smith's claims a reality. Sure, its possible, but I don't want anything to do with that god. But, thats beside the point, being willing to say to my wife that I may be wrong, I don't know everything, goes a long way to making her feel like I'm not trying to control or manipulate her. I think we're talking about two different things here. One being right, the other having a happy marriage.

Never in a million years could I be in a marriage that allows the demands of outside influences to supercede those of the relationship. That's just plain nuts in my mind. To be clear, I'm not talking about compromise (Beloved nevermo spouse of thirty-two-years and I do more than our fair share of that little song and dance), I'm talking about one partner taking all the marbles, setting all the rules to his or her favor, then leaving the other to hold the bag. In these cases, its always the non-believer that ends up holding the bag. Who in their right mind can live like that?

When "just give up" becomes the "message of hope" you're in real trouble. I'm not a mormon anymore because I couldn't stand living under the cult's or my folk's oppressive thumb. I honestly don't get it. Why would anyone live a life of constant misery and restraint just to please one person, particularly when that one person refuses to reciprocate?

I've yet to meet anyone who warrants that kind of respect.

Timothy

... that was not my situation.

... and you're in third place. Honestly, dude, I don't get it.

Everything is hunky-dory so long as you abide by her demands. Should you step outside those boundaries, however, she'll carelessly discard you in favor of her true love.

Indeed, the mormon cult still practices a form of polygamy. You're spouse #2, MV. Curious; do you still subsidize her true lover to the tune of 10% of your gross income?

Consider this, MV:

"If you love something, set it free. If it comes back, its yours. If it doesn't, it never was."

It occurs to me that neither of you are willing to set the other free for very obvious reasons. If you set her free, she probably won't come back. If she sets you free, she will no longer be able to control you. Pretty scary stuff for folks who live strictly in the moment.

You say you're making it work, but the underlying tension is still there as evidenced by the fact that you can't discuss religion in your own home. That's not going to improve so long as you two are at opposite ends of the spectrum. You've already caved to the extent that you're willing to admit you could possibly be wrong. Sorry, MV, but folks round these parts are gonna call bulls**t on that every time. The only way this will work for you - and that's the person you need to be most concerned with - is if she comes to admit that she might possibly be wrong. Otherwise, you need to let her go so you both can find what it is you're really after.

As it stands, she wants a TBM spouse and you want a non-believing spouse. As long as that situation exists, you will both remain miserable no matter how happy and shiny a facade you put on.

I've said it before and I'll say it again. One cannot fully recover from the cult until one fully disconnects from the cult. This thread provides a classic example of that. You can call yourself a New Order Mormon, but you're still calling yourself a mormon. That's never going to work!

Good luck!

Timothy

Amen to that. It's been 5 years for me, too, and the most important lesson (which I think you've pretty much shown) is to realize that you don't go through it alone. What you believe and what you do has an impact on your loved ones, and the more you act out of concern for them, the better things will go.

And yes, it's possible we could all be wrong. But I don't think so.

In the very little time my marriage survived after I left the church (in fact, the two events were close to simultaneous), I recognize I made some of the same mistakes.

I've since remarried (a nevermo) and much of what you said can be generally applied to any relationship (without the Mormon specifics). I appreciate your post and the advice.

othersteve Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> In the very little time my marriage survived after
> I left the church (in fact, the two events were
> close to simultaneous), I recognize I made some of
> the same mistakes.
>
> I've since remarried (a nevermo) and much of what
> you said can be generally applied to any
> relationship (without the Mormon specifics). I
> appreciate your post and the advice.

I guess I didn't really intend it as advice. I guess I thought that if anyone is struggling within a sticky situation in their marriage due to their non-belief someone might benefit from seeing the mistakes I made. It certainly isnt the solution for everyone, but it may be for some.

and recirculate it when the topic comes up. I hope it is helpful.

Making Marriage Work for Ex-Mormon/Mormon Couples

I have been a casual observer of mixed religious marriages of former or unbelieving Mormons through an e-mail list and discussion board for former and unbelieving Mormons. It appears to me that unrecognized couples development issues underlie these religious struggles. In fact, from this perspective, mixed marriage couples have two tasks, each related to the other: individuating within the couple relationship while individuating from Mormonism.

In Quest of the Mythical Mate, by psychotherapists Ellyn Bader and Peter T. Pearson, provides a developmental model for couple relationships based on the concept that, like individuals, develop from a state of symbiosis toward a fully developed state of interdependence. The process may take years, and if successful, its culmination is characterized by partners who are able to participate fully as themselves in the world while relating intimately with one another.

Summary of Bader and Pearson’s Developmental Model

Symbiotic Stage

According to Bader and Pearson’s model couple relationships begin with Symbiosis. The purpose of this stage is to bond, creating a couple relationship based on the feeling and perception of “oneness.” It is characterized by “falling in love,” the merging of personalities, and intense bonding. As anyone who has fallen in love knows this stage feels wonderfully good and exciting. The lovers magnify similarities and overlook differences and are capable of deep passion and mutual giving. If all goes well, the individuals become a couple. (Bader and Pearson p. 9.) Challenges at this stage may include loss of identity, fear of abandonment, and fear of engulfment. Recognition and expression of differences may arouse anxiety and interactions may focus on masking them. (Bader and Pearson pp. 244-245)

Within Mormonism, “oneness” is highly valued, with oneness meaning observant Mormons are ideally in complete agreement and compliance with LDS teaching and practice. Dissonance is discouraged and sometimes punished with expulsion from the group. Because the Mormon ideal is to live as family units in the afterlife, failure to fulfill Mormon ideals is serious issue for believers. LDS psychotherapist Marybeth Raynes insightfully describes this expectation of similarity and some of its consequences:

"With a strong emphasis in the Church on finding a right and wrong way for everything, identical religious thought and action between marriage partners is encouraged. Where there are differences, one spouse must be wrong. Ironically, any church that has many criteria for goodness sets up as many points for conflict as for congruency. (This is true generally: the more areas two or more people want to share, the more areas for potential disagreement emerge. This is why friendships often work better than marriages; we sharply limit the number of concerns which overlap with our friends and often become really close to only those with whom we agree.) We may be unwittingly sharpening a double-edged sword as we increase the number of rituals and programs a couple must share as a condition for a happy marriage." (Raynes, Marybeth. Issues of Intimacy: A Mixed Religious Marriage, Sunstone Magazine, March 1985, p. 40.)

Differentiation

Once the ecstasy of the Symbiotic Stage begins to diminish, the partners begin to see the relationship more objectively and they enter the Differentiation Stage. In the Differentiation Stage, the partners begin to reassert individual boundaries. Partners notice differences and may want to have time alone. At this point, if differentiation happens suddenly or cannot be tolerated by one or both partners, the relationship may end. (Bader and Pearson p. 10) Often one partner begins to differentiate before the other. Challenges at this stage may include the symbiotic partner feeling betrayed and threatened as the other partner begins to differentiate. The differentiating partner may feel guilty for the perceived betrayal and anger at the lack of recognition and acceptance of difference. (Bader and Pearson pp. 246-247)

For Mormon couples, conflicts can arise when a partner individuates from the Mormon faith as well as from the partner. Depending on the degree and kind of change, as well as the believing partner’s own views and needs, he or she may feel loss and threat on several levels: personal, familial, social, and existential. Some believing partners may feel betrayed, having entered into the marriage with the understanding that the integrity of the marriage is vouchsafed by a shared belief and commitment to Mormonism. The questioning of that belief and commitment may call the marriage into question as well as the integrity of the less-believing or non-believing partner.

Practicing

As differentiation proceeds, the couple enters the Practicing Stage. At this point, partners turn energy away from the relationship and toward their own needs and toward their own interests in the outside world. The defining characteristic of this stage is “I want to be me!” The partners are busy discovering themselves as individuals. They are less attuned to their partner and the relationship. Partners may become self-centered and concerned with their personal power. This stage is marked by conflict. Successful conflict resolution and negotiation skills are needed to maintain the relationship. (Bader and Pearson p. 11) Challenges at this stage are successful conflict management and maintaining empathy and emotional connection. The danger at this stage is irreparable damage to the relationship or its loss. (Bader and Pearson pp. 248-249)

For the questioning or former Mormon, this phase not only entails turning energy to other interests but can and often does entail a transformation of identity, world view, and changes in affiliation and social status. The believing partner may at this time feel frightened and betrayed and also experience an unwelcome change in status within his or her ward due to the partner’s changes. The non-believing partner may also feel afraid of losing his or her family and friends and may treat the process of change as a battle that has to be won against the partner and social community. He or she may forget that being himself or herself also entails a commitment to allow the partner to also be himself or herself, however the partner defines that, if the relationship is to survive. Because differentiation is hard-won, sometimes at great personal and social cost, a partner who is or appears to be opposing change may be quickly defined as “the enemy.”

Each partner may also seek and find sources of personal support in increased church activity or in affiliation with groups critical of Mormonism. While this move is natural and may be helpful for the individual partner, the danger is the couple will feel not only that they have little in common, but they become proxies for conflicting ideologies. Battling over ideological issues can quickly obscure and destroy the deeply personal and vital elements of friendship that underlie and support intimacy and commitment to the relationship.

To prevent or lessen the tendency to define the believing partner as “the enemy” it may be helpful for the couple to set aside or “bracket” religious issues for an agreed-upon time while working on the conflict management skills and to build their “marital friendship.”
Two sets of conflict management skills are essential: The couple needs avoid behavior destructive to the relationship, especially contempt, criticism (as opposed to complaint), defensiveness, and stonewalling (“the silent treatment”). At the same time, the couple needs to recognize, develop, and use repair skills during and after conflicts to reaffirm commitment to the partner and the relationship.

Rapprochement

If things have gone well and the couple has maintained their friendship and each has developed a secure sense of identity, there is a shift again in the relationship towards intimacy and vulnerability while at the same time each partner maintains an independent identity. The relationship holds a balance between "I" and "We." Partners nurture one another consistently and are able to negotiate changes with little threat to the relationship. They can give to one another when it is inconvenient without feeling put upon. (Bader and Pearson pp. 11, 250) Challenges in this stage include finding the right balance between the needs of the individuals and the needs of the relationship. Over-compromise is the main temptation, as the cessation of conflict is pleasant. However, stress comes mainly from outside the relationship rather than from within it. (Bader and Pearson p. 250)

An issue faced by many ex-Mormons is having established a separate identity, sometimes at great cost in personal relationships and social standing, how much can be compromised for the beliefs of the partner and still maintain a sense of identity and integrity? The believing partner, of course, has the same issue. Ideally, in day-to-day practice, the couple develops mutually acceptable ways of addressing the issues presented to them by both the Mormon and non-Mormon world. The challenge is not only to avoid over-compromise but to avoid becoming engaged in ideological battles when new issues arise.

The couple will also need to recognize that every long-term, intimate relationship includes intractable problems that can be managed but not resolved. John Gottman’s work, again, provides practical research-based information and exercises for doing this, such as postponing problem-solving, taking turns talking about one another’s dreams within conflicts, looking for areas of flexibility where couples can work together, and supporting spouses’ dreams to the degree possible. (Gottman, Ten Lessons to Transform Your Marriage, chapter 5)

Mutual Interdependence

At this stage, the relationship each partner relates more fully to both the outside world and to one another, secure in the knowledge and experienced of being loved and accepted for themselves. The partners are able to reconcile the ideal and perfect with the real. They reach a stage of mutual interdependence in which two mature people relate from the basis of growth, shared interest, vulnerability, and love rather than need. (Bader and Pearson pp. 11-12.)

At this point the couple will have consciously determined how and how much of a role Mormonism will play in their relationship as a couple and for each of them as individuals. They will have largely reconciled the ideal and perfect with the real and the possible. The enjoyment of particular individuals committed to one another will take precedence over commitments to ideologies and fantasies of what “should be.”

A Few Recommendations

Realize that couples relationships evolve and change, and some conflict is expected in the process. Often one partner will be in the position of changing and the other in the position of trying to “catch up.” Conflict does not mean one partner is bad and the other is good or that one is necessarily right and the other wrong.

Find and focus on areas of agreement and mutual interest. Keep communication open and as much as is honestly possible, emphasize what is working, what is positive, and what you appreciate. Satisfying marriages have a positive to negative communication ratio of 5:1.

Articulate disagreement as complaints rather than criticisms. Criticisms attack character, whether of your partner or of your partner’s belief system. Complaints focus on behaviors and actions rather than character. Ideally, a complaint could (and would) be presented as a request for positive action (a request to do a different behavior rather than a request to stop a behavior).

Focus on working through differences and creating situations that work for the both of you rather than fighting about “who is right.” Beware of becoming a proxy for ideological positions, whether “Mormon” or “Ex-Mormon.”

When you recognize you are stuck or gridlocked as a couple on an issue, set aside the question of who is right and look at how you are communicating rather than what you are communicating. It can be helpful to agree to set aside a particular issue for a mutually agreed upon amount of time to work on aspects of the relationship that are working.

When you do return to a difficult issue, listen closely and ask your partner about the underlying dream the issue represents. You may find you can support aspects of your partner’s dream while at the same time recognizing you do not share the entire dream or your partner’s methods of fulfilling it.

I highly recommend obtaining a copy of Ten Lessons to Transform Your Marriage, by John Gottman, Ph.D. It is very readable and practical, and it is based on empirical research with thousands of couples. Dr. Gottman addresses the issue of what to do with intractable issues, such as those ex-Mormon/Mormon couples face (although he does not address Mormonism itself). The book is available through Amazon or Barnes & Noble. It can be downloaded in digital form from Barnes & Noble.

If you and your partner are talking about divorce or splitting up, seriously consider making an appointment with a relationship counselor you both can agree upon. Get recommendations from other people who have had good experiences working with a counselor on similar issues. The most important quality of a counselor is you both feel comfortable with the counselor and he or she is interested in helping work through your problems on your own terms.

Conclusion

Viewing relationship through a developmental lens provides a perspective that change and conflict are inherent in couple relationships is not fault of either partner. When one partner is committed to Mormonism and the other is the process of questioning and rejecting it to a greater or a lesser degree, the issues of individuation and the possibility for break-up may be acute. By becoming educated about how relationships develop, about conflict management, and about specific issues presented by the Mormon belief and lifestyle, I hope ex-Mormons and their partners will divorce less often and experience greater satisfaction in their relationships.

1. Anger: Based on irrefutable evidence, you correctly concluded that the LDS Church systematically misled you about Joseph Smith, early church history, the BoM, and other key and foundational aspects of Mo-ism. Naturally, you were anger. Your LDS wife, however, was too 'programmed' by cultic Mo-ism to recognize the truth about Mormonism, i.e., it's based on a fraud. She should also be angry for having been systematically deceived by the Morg, but has been too 'brainwashed' to wake up to that legitimate emotion. Perhaps one day.

2. Patience: Human history provides us with many crucial lessons, including: Abusers (e.g., organizations, individuals) must not be treated with patience. It's only through confrontation that abusers have been "made low." No one need be patient with the deceitful, manipulative LDS Church. Likewise, no one is obliged to be patient with Mormonism-'brainwashed' believers who refuse to look at facts that do not support 'true' LDS doctrines and church teachings. Another important historical lesson: Enabling dysfunction has NEVER engendered positive results.

3. Empathy: While we can comprehend that religious believers (e.g., Mormons) will be upset when confronted by 'faith-disrupting' facts, it is only through the truth that they can be psychologically liberated from religious nonsense. Is the point of existence to remain 'comfortable' in one's 'bubble of belief', or personal growth, including psychological maturation, which involves being confronted by 'belief-busting' facts, becoming more aware, and learning to think for oneself? The answer from human history is clear: the latter. Empathy towards believers, including one's TBM spouse, needs to be within this 'higher' perspective.

4. Respect: We are NEVER obliged to respect demonstrable nonsense, no matter how emotionally invested someone is in it. Respect has to be earned; it's not a freebie. If someone refuses to listen to info. because they're afraid that facts will 'rock the boat' of their cherished belief system, they have not earned anyone's respect. People with good/healthy self-esteem respect the truth more than need to reinforce (in their minds) their beliefs, including their cherished beliefs. We can tolerate such people (e.g., TBMs) and use emotional intelligence and rational thinking when dealing with them (e.g., not calling them "stupid" for stubbornly keeping their mental blinders on), but they have not earned our respect with their dysfunctional mindset (and behavior).

5. Humility: Truth is independent of belief - and belief-based emotions. Truth-seekers are accustomed to scrutinizing their beliefs, and when they discover they've been in error - often through no fault of their own, but simply due to a lack of correct information - they simply adjust their thinking and move on. If they've communicated an erroneous view to others, they willingly acknowledge their error - no verbal self-flagellation required - and share whatever new info. and insights they've gained with others. However, if they've shared 'belief-busting' truth with other people, who have been hurt or otherwise had a negative emotional reaction due to such info., the truth-communicator does not need to apologize (i.e., exhibit 'humility'). If people - including one's spouse - can't handle the truth, the problem is theirs.

This approach was not working for us. I have no doubt it would work in some situations. But it wasn't in mine.

And remembered what I believed for decades and how that manifested in our home and marriage.

Then I asked myself if I could treat him the way I wanted to be treated. The answer was always: YES!

He needed and wanted to be accepted, respected, honored as my spouse, etc. Did he want any part of my anger or impatience, NO, of course not. Who would?

Through trial and error, I found the methods that gave me the results I wanted to maintain our marriage.
Keep doing the same thing expecting different results is known as: insanity! :-)

And most of all, I had to keep my sense of humor and be able to laugh and enjoy our live together.

I am grateful I have a husband that understood the huge differences in our backgrounds and could accept that I could make a different decision and to take turns..... We did it his way for three decades, now I needed him to do it my way... at least in part.

Mormonism is not an issue in our marriage unless I make it one. He leaves it alone. Besides, we don't have to agree.