Rebeckah Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> She was a kid and had gone into survival mode. She
> didn't care who Brian David Mitchell was or what
> he claimed -- she just wanted to survive and to
> protect her family.
..... AND then play herself in a movie when the adventure, uh, er, kidnapping was over & become a MOVIE STAR!

>
> And if Brian David Mitchell actually thought he
> was a prophet why did he kidnap Elizabeth instead
> of revealing God's will to her folks? Why did he
> hide from the law instead of bringing God's divine
> lightning down on the apostate police force?

IF a person can call hanging out at an OPEN campsite well with in hiking distance of the *abduction* seen *hiding*.

IF a person can call sitting tight at the same campsite instead of fleeing in response to hearing calls from search parties *hiding*.

IF a person can call being out on the town in Osama Bin Laden style dress with wive's matching burka wear & attendant 911 implications *hiding*.

Some people call that delusional/crazy.

Some people say its poor police work or symptons of living in a brain dead community instead of *hiding* that Mitchell got along this way with out being caught. Of course the SLC PD does not feel that way & Rick Dinse STILL feels that Richard Ricci is the kidnapper.

Some people wonder who is more stupid/ crazy, Dinse or Mitchell.

When she heard them calling her name, she was chained up which made running kind of hard. How about a little compassion for a child? I hope nothing like that ever happens to you and if it does, I hope people don't treat your ordeal the way you are treating Elizabeth's You might want to read the transcripts of her testimony. That way you will know what you are talking about.They are on KSL.com.

bona dea Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> When she heard them calling her name, she was
> chained up which made running kind of hard.

Really? & the key must have been up in heaven visiting with the gold plates for a while! so there was no way for Liz to be freed to make a break. Then again, the searchers never actually spotted or came to the camp, so Mitchell must have been enjoying divine protection. So there they sat! and Liz is still chained up there today...oh wait! no she isn't! so she must have been freed by Mitchell some way!

> How
> about a little compassion for a child? I hope
> nothing like that ever happens to you and if it
> does, I hope people don't treat your ordeal the
> way you are treating Elizabeth's

AS IF YOU HAD A CLUE about anything!
Some people would love to have the chance to be treated like the smarts, they would love their victim to still be alive to hear any criticism, undue or otherwise! and just try to imagine that there actually are other victims of abductions & abuse out there. REAL ABDUCTIONS instead of the Runaways gone wild type. Undoubtedly its really hard to do with the Smarts always parading around & shooting off their mouths. Some people relish the thought of having an outcome like the Smarts had. Some people would love to be in situation where their child's abductor was going to trial. Those others could even be content & satisfied enough with a smart style outcome to stay at home & keep their Mouths shut, instead of running around & inviting so attention AND so much criticism like the Smarts do.


How do you think the Smart case really looks to people who STILL have children missing. How do you think the smart case sounds to people with still missing or dead kids who get to listen to Liz Smart talking about getting married & then bragging about biting her *abductor*/husband. How do you think it sounds to them when Liz really doesnt have any broken bones or scars to show for her terrible *ordeal*. & before you go all MORmON & start putting words in other's mouths, Its not being said that Liz deserves that. But just try to imagine what could have happened to others that makes them hear a real hollow tinny sound every time the smarts open their mouths about their brand of *victimhood*, instead of slipping into the far more common mode of swooning over Liz & her *heroics*.


> You might want to
> read the transcripts of her testimony. That way
> you will know what you are talking about.They are
> on KSL.com.

yah and next "you might want to" tell me that I should consider actually reading the BOM & praying about it, like I know nothing about that either. thats a good enough MORmON style insult that "you might want to" just go back to the LDS church!
It would be a good place for you!

there is definitely some one here who comes up way short on back ground, realizations & perspective of what this & that really mean, and what a tragedy really is.

Some people would love to have had their child abducted by Mitchell,instead of what they got, INCOMPREHENSIBLE as that is to you while you blabber away about what you know & how it should be! But keep running your mouth about what your version of the Smart deal really is, because you look so good while doing it.... JUST LIKE THE SMARTS DO!

Lucky Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> bona dea Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > When she heard them calling her name, she was
> > chained up which made running kind of hard.
>
> Really? & the key must have been up in heaven
> visiting with the gold plates for a while! so
> there was no way for Liz to be freed to make a
> break. Then again, the searchers never actually
> spotted or came to the camp, so Mitchell must have
> been enjoying divine protection. So there they
> sat! and Liz is still chained up there today...oh
> wait! no she isn't! so she must have been freed by
> Mitchell some way!
>
> > How
> > about a little compassion for a child? I hope
> > nothing like that ever happens to you and if it
> > does, I hope people don't treat your ordeal the
> > way you are treating Elizabeth's
>
> AS IF YOU HAD A CLUE about anything!
> Some people would love to have the chance to be
> treated like the smarts, they would love their
> victim to still be alive to hear any criticism,
> undue or otherwise! and just try to imagine that
> there actually are other victims of abductions &
> abuse out there. REAL ABDUCTIONS instead of the
> Runaways gone wild type. Undoubtedly its really
> hard to do with the Smarts always parading around
> & shooting off their mouths. Some people relish
> the thought of having an outcome like the Smarts
> had. Some people would love to be in situation
> where their child's abductor was going to trial.
> Those others could even be content & satisfied
> enough with a smart style outcome to stay at home
> & keep their Mouths shut, instead of running
> around & inviting so attention AND so much
> criticism like the Smarts do.
>
>
> How do you think the Smart case really looks to
> people who STILL have children missing. How do you
> think the smart case sounds to people with still
> missing or dead kids who get to listen to Liz
> Smart talking about getting married & then
> bragging about biting her *abductor*/husband. How
> do you think it sounds to them when Liz really
> doesnt have any broken bones or scars to show for
> her terrible *ordeal*. & before you go all MORmON
> & start putting words in other's mouths, Its not
> being said that Liz deserves that. But just try to
> imagine what could have happened to others that
> makes them hear a real hollow tinny sound every
> time the smarts open their mouths about their
> brand of *victimhood*, instead of slipping into
> the far more common mode of swooning over Liz &
> her *heroics*.
>
>
> > You might want to
> > read the transcripts of her testimony. That way
> > you will know what you are talking about.They
> are
> > on KSL.com.
>
> yah and next "you might want to" tell me that I
> should consider actually reading the BOM & praying
> about it, like I know nothing about that either.
> thats a good enough MORmON style insult that "you
> might want to" just go back to the LDS church!
> It would be a good place for you!
>
> there is definitely some one here who comes up way
> short on back ground, realizations & perspective
> of what this & that really mean, and what a
> tragedy really is.
>
> Some people would love to have had their child
> abducted by Mitchell,instead of what they got,
> INCOMPREHENSIBLE as that is to you while you
> blabber away about what you know & how it should
> be! But keep running your mouth about what your
> version of the Smart deal really is, because you
> look so good while doing it.... JUST LIKE THE
> SMARTS DO!

You know, I followed this case on a daily basis, read the books and the magazine articles, and watched the TV specials. I also read the transcripts. I do know what I am talking about. I find you ignorant of the facts and lacking in compassion. Go ahead and beat up on child if you like just because she is rich, Mormon and survived. This is pathetic and I am done. Believe what you like.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 11/14/2010 11:55PM by bona dea.

> Go ahead and beat up on ca hild if you like just because
> she
> is rich, Mormon and survived. This is pathetic and
> I am done.
> Believe what you like.

wow, so now my being critical of situation is the same thing as child beating. I knew you had this in you, thats why I made the previous comment about your likeliness to go MORmON & try to put words in other's mouths.

"You might want to" call up Dan Petersen & ask him for a job writing hack LDS apologist tripe for FARMS. I will give you a great reference!


Well, you know so DARN much! but funny thing is you totally missed this TOO, I wasn't beating up on child at this point.... I mean unless you are under 18 ? or maybe you need to tell me what "I might really want to" do or was doing.... even though you are very done, very very very done.

> Or you can assume there is a conspiracy
> among 12 and 13-year old girls to be
> kidnapped, sexually assaulted, and somehow to enjoy it.

or is it YOU doing the assuming?

wow, that seems so much liKe a MORmON list of options/alternatives, - so limited, controling, directive & dictative.

do the 12 & 13 year olds, as well as the 14 year olds of Liz Smart's ACTUAL age at the incidental time, have to somehow enjoy being sexually assaulted?

(and whats with this age slide to younger years for the victims? its so much like Joe Smith's various first vision accounts)

then again there was the teen pregnancy pact in Pennsylvania.
it seems that some teen age girls are very much aware of their sexuality & how to use it as leverage to try to get their way.
There are incidents of 14 year old girls screwing every interested teen boy in their neighborhood in the interest of being popular. 14 year old girls are not necessarily the poor hapless, helpless naive creatures that society dictates that they be, maybe the real conspiracy is among adults who want to dictate how everything should be, or appear to be. (see the list above).

It is possible for a 14 year old girl to have a keen compelling how ever premature interest in sex, even if it is unmentionable. Most of these young girls are already well aware of that fact. Being sexually active at 14 is an indiscretion that can be overlooked, not having some else to blame it on when there is an inquisition is THE big mistake to be avoided at all costs, along with admitting that losing their virginity was not that big of a deal to them at the time. (hmmmm,maybe there is a real reason that Liz has this certain core of rabidly devoted female fans) Its THE big mistake that Liz smart is not going to be allowed to make .........now. there is not a chance in Hell that Liz could tell the real truth at this time.

Actions speak louder than words. Just because a 14 year old girl says it does not mean its true, even if it fits in nicely with societal expectations, especially when there are so many other things that just dont fit together.

Liz Smart, she did not get the Movie role, but she is doing the acting job of her life anyway!

When Elizabeth was rescued, several people who had known Mitchell, his wife and Elizabeth when they were together were very baffled. They said that they had never suspected that she had been kidnapped and that she had acted like she was part of the family. Many thought that she was Mitchell's daughter. Elizabeth was out in public on numerous occasions with her captors and a guy let the three live in his apartment for a while. Now the explanation is that she was simply afraid and never for a moment thought that Mitchell was a prophet. Why was she already in a habit of imitating Mitchell's scriptural style of speech when she was rescued? I believe there is good reason to be skeptical.

Sources please. Mitchelll's family are the ones who contacted the police because they believed he did it.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 11/15/2010 01:02AM by bona dea.

"They were always very pleasant," said Richard Mason, a 45-year-old homeless man. "She didn't seem like she was kidnapped. She acted like she was part of the family."...

Daniel Trotta, who says he unknowingly sheltered Elizabeth and the drifter couple in a Salt Lake City apartment for several days last fall, claims the girl never expressed fear and had opportunities to escape or at least call police.
http://www.boston.com/news/daily/13/elizabeth_smart.htm

"We called them Jesus and Mary," said Erin Ptaschinski, 17, a waitress at Souper Salad, in Midvale, about 10 miles south of Salt Lake City.

Ms. Ptaschinski said a girl she now believed was Elizabeth Smart came in only once with the couple, last August, and stayed about two hours, regularly getting up to get her own food at a salad bar. On the door of the restaurant was a poster of Elizabeth - at the time, perhaps, the most sought person in America.

"She could have run at that point or told us who she was," Ms. Ptaschinski said. "She just got her food and walked back to the table. She was never physically restrained."
http://www.rickross.com/reference/smart/smart11.html

A witness is quoted as saying, "...She was never physically restrained."

Not all bonds are physical.

There are many complex psychological aspects to an experience of this type, some of which we don't know or understand.

I cannot imagine any way in which a sheltered 13 yr old child would choose to go through a horror show like this (I gag just thinking of that filthy hairy psycho even touching her, never mind raping her daily). The religious overlay, from him and from her own background as a Mormon (where religion encompasses every aspect of life, at least to those who attend and participate regularly) further complicates matters.

It seems reasonable that a person held captive would do whatever it took to preserve their life, which could be what Elizabeth was doing. She was also under the conviction that Mitchell would harm her and her family if she did not comply. That is often all the "restraint" that a captor needs to hold their captive indefinitely and make them compliant.

Maybe some of it doesn't make sense to our rational minds, in the comfort of our homes, absent captors or abusers. But fear is a mighty club and is used by abusers to control their victims. Fortunately for us, we'll likely never have to find out how we would react under such an all-encompassing fear. If it takes being "obedient" to save one's life, that is a form of courage, courage to fight to live.

I can't imagine the need to beat on a young woman who experienced this horror as a CHILD. Being raped once is a horrific experience that can take a healthy adult woman a lifetime from which to recover. Imagine being 13 yrs old and being raped daily for months. (Well, I'd rather NOT imagine it). It's amazing to me that Elizabeth isn't babbling in a padded room somewhere. I am pretty sure she is not thrilled to have had such an experience just so she can get to be a "movie star" (the first I have heard of that, btw).

I am not saying it isn't instructive to analyze the situation, especially given its strong connection to Mormonism. And it isn't unreasonable that people speculate over aspects of it. But to those such as the OP here who strongly criticize and mock Elizabeth Smart herself, I don't get that. Why the need to do that? Where's the outrage against the actual criminal here, Mitchell himself?

For a 13 yr old child to have survived and coped as well as she seems to be doing, no matter what the future holds, is amazing. I wish her all the best, even while I believe it will never really be over for her. Who among us would want the entire world to know the intimate details of sexual abuse we have suffered? For that alone, that she could show up in court and state the facts about such a personal experience, I admire her obvious strength.

I hope her attacker gets a big heavy book thrown right at his head. For life.

Meanwhile, I agree with those who see some of these comments as re-victimization of Elizabeth Smart. Why does she deserve that?



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 11/14/2010 11:25PM by Nightingale.

> Smart came in only once with the couple, last August, and
> stayed about two hours, regularly getting up to get her own
> food at a salad bar. On the door of the restaurant was a
> poster of Elizabeth - at the time, perhaps, the most sought
> person in America.

...who was accompanied by Mitchell who was dressed up like Osama Bin Laden, the *other* most wanted/sought after person in the world.

INCREDIBLE !

Those were not members of Mitchell's family and Elizabeth was under Mitchell's control when she was in their presence.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 11/14/2010 10:48PM by bona dea.

and held over long periods of time. She was conditioned to comply to him, not to run, and not to act afraid. She didn't have to believe he was a 'prophet.' She just had to believe she would be caught and brought back to him then punished, or have her family be punished. Really, really common in cases like this.

I just meant that other people thought she was part of Mitchell's family.

Okay, but that is the way Mitchell had told her to act..

bona dea, no use arguing with idiots. Yes, I'm calling those who question Elizabeth idiots.

How about Sean Horbek (spelling) and the girl who was kept for YEARS in California? They had opportunities to leave.

This is something none of us understand as we haven't been there! I think it is horrible that people choose to victimize Elizabeth Smart again by questioning her story. I can't imagine the hell she lived through.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 11/14/2010 10:56PM by cl2.

Oh--I was going to say something about the boy whose name was "Steven" (from years ago)--when he took his perpetrator's new victim to the police station, he was going to leave and the police stopped him. His perpetrator had told him for years that his parents didn't want him.

cl2 Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Oh--I was going to say something about the boy
> whose name was "Steven" (from years ago)--when he
> took his perpetrator's new victim to the police
> station, he was going to leave and the police
> stopped him. His perpetrator had told him for
> years that his parents didn't want him.

Steven Staynor was kept captive for 7 years and sexually abused. He attended school during the time and never told anyone until he helped a 7 year old escape from the same predator. BTW, he was also a Mormon and his brother Cary was the Yosemite killer. Similar things have happened to many. Jaycee Dugard is another example, as is Patti Hearst.

It wouldn't have mattered if the guy claimed to be a prophet or a serial killer, I would have been scared out of my wits.

I don't know what I would have done if a policeman approached me in the same situation. I think I would have been scared to say anything.

Mitchell did, after all, threaten her family. Who know how 14 yr olds think under such pressure. I can't second guess her thoughts. I feel really sorry for her that she had to endure such torment.

to Elizabeth Smart when she was abducted and sexually assaulted. Under stressful conditions, people *habituate* to their situation in order to survive and it doesn't occur to them to do things to save themselves that occur to us who are not in that situation. Learned helplessness is a sufficient explanation of Elizabeth Smart's behavior.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Learned_helplessness

Or you can assume there is a conspiracy among 12 and 13-year old girls to be kidnapped, sexually assaulted, and somehow to enjoy it.

robertb Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> to Elizabeth Smart when she was abducted and
> sexually assaulted. Under stressful conditions,
> people *habituate* to their situation in order to
> survive and it doesn't occur to them to do things
> to save themselves that occur to us who are not in
> that situation. Learned helplessness is a
> sufficient explanation of Elizabeth Smart's
> behavior.
>
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Learned_helplessness
>
> Or you can assume there is a conspiracy among 12
> and 13-year old girls to be kidnapped, sexually
> assaulted, and somehow to enjoy it.

I think the OP only doubts rich,Mormon girls.

Actually, I don't know if being a rich Mormon girl was in her favor. Can you imagine coming from a family in which your environment is highly controlled and you are cared for and *then* you taken from it? It would be a profound shock for anyone, and much more for a young girl.

The big issue here is feeling in control or helpless, and Elizabeth Smart was made to feel profoundly helpless. From what I have read, she seems to have had moments of exercising some control, but if I were in her place, I wouldn't know how far to push it. I would feel a great deal of self-doubt and act inconsistently. We see this all the time with people in extreme situations.

For example, why didn't the passengers on 3 of the 4 airliners crashed on 9/11 try to save themselves? I believe it was because they didn't have a frame of reference from which to act and they were afraid of making a bad situation worse. On the one flight in which the passengers did act, it was because they *knew* what would happen if they didn't.

The issue of Elizabeth Smart considering a movie part--I think of it as a kind of psychodrama in which she relives the traumatic experience while *knowing* the outcome ahead of time and thereby gains a sense of mastery of the situation and of herself. I have the same opinion of her serving a mission--she is demonstrating (to herself most of all) that she is capable of leaving home, of being in the world, and of being able to carry on her life. At the same time, the experience is structured and supervised.

My thoughts on it.

Unless one has been raped and kidnapped as a young teen oneself, one has no business second guessing this girl. Just sayin'...



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 11/15/2010 12:24AM by Sorcha.

If the OP has some actual evidence to back up his theory, I'd love to hear it. He also needs to account for cases like Patti Hearst, Jaycee Dugard, Shawn Hornbeck ,and Steven Staynor since they acted the aame way.

I know I've wondered why abused women stay with their abusers. E. Smart was most certainly abused, with the added element that she was physically restrained for much of the time. I think by the time she wasn't physically restrained, she was pretty well mind-controlled by Mitchell.

Possible answers why abused women don't leave (note that not all of these reflect reality, but the warped perception drilled into the victim):

Rear of leaving (fear of reprisals from the abuser for trying, possible fear of what comes next after leaving . . . . can they live without the abuser? Will anyone else accept them?).

Shame (even though the ABUSER should be the one who is ashamed, the victim is made to feel guilt and shame, maybe told they deserved the treatment they got, or on the flip side . . . that they shouldn't have LET their abuser do what they did).

Learned helplessness (complete submission or giving up in order to avoid confrontation or pain as much as possible, since they can't leave)

Self-blame "If I do/did everything he wants, he'd stop treating me this way" (which doesn't work, BTW).


And BTW, Lucky . . . please learn more about abuse before you go judging an innocent victim. Abuse messes with people's ability to act in their own self-interest. Sometimes it DOES defy logic. But they are just trying to survive, and are operating under the influence of someone who has messed with their very perception of reality. Sometimes the abuser erodes their self-perception to the point that they can't even think or act for themselves.

> And BTW, Lucky . . . please learn more about abuse before you > go judging an innocent victim. Abuse messes with people's
> ability to act in their own self-interest. Sometimes it DOES > defy logic. But they are just trying to survive, and are
> operating under the influence of someone who has messed with > their very perception of reality. Sometimes the abuser erodes > their self-perception to the point that they can't even think > or act for themselves.

Judging Liz would be advocating some sort of punishment for her, saying something like she got what she deserved, or that she should have her ass kicked. I have not said that. That's not the way I feel.

I will say that stupid dealings leads to more stupid happenings. The fact that Liz chooses to peddle the MORmON religion which was such an integral part of the malaise that lead to her missing is an indication that she doesnt have a clue about things. I muse over her *need* to testify.
She doesnt have to dole out details to survive at this point.
But there she is! The Feds ALREADY have MORE than enough to bury Mitchell permanently without a single word from her. SO, what is she really doing?

Somehow,its a different day & its the same old crap, with just a little different setting. She is still taking directions from the male handler in her life to keep the giant PR bonanza rolling, what ever he wants! Still thinking this deal really makes her something really special -the very modality that got her in trouble in the first place.

> Abused people don't always act in the way we would
> expect . . .

like you said!

Lucky says:

"I muse over her *need* to testify."

Maybe the subpoena has something to do with her showing up at the courthouse, as commanded by law?

Lucky:
"She doesnt have to dole out details to survive at this point.
But there she is! The Feds ALREADY have MORE than enough to bury Mitchell permanently without a single word from her. SO, what is she really doing?"

I'm sure the prosecution is instructing her as to what she needs to do.

It's well known that testifying in court is one of the biggest challenges for rape victims as they have to relive their horrific experience - and yes - they must give details. That's why so many decline to testify, which makes getting a conviction very difficult in many cases.

I've read that most men never have the experience of feeling fear, unlike women who are usually physically weaker than men and who are often targets of predators and other criminals. This is just one factor that makes it more difficult for men to understand what a female victim goes through when being stalked or assaulted or has any other cause to feel fear or be physically threatened or injured. I will give "Lucky" the benefit of the doubt that this is what is causing him to fail to understand Elizabeth Smart or to feel compassion for her. If Lucky, however, is female, then my analysis is way off.

Still, the lack of understanding and compassion is striking. I agree with whoever said it may be instructive to read up about it to gain more insight.

Nightingale Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Lucky says:
>
> "I muse over her *need* to testify."
>
> Maybe the subpoena has something to do with her
> showing up at the courthouse, as commanded by
> law?
>
> Lucky:
> "She doesnt have to dole out details to survive at
> this point.
> But there she is! The Feds ALREADY have MORE than
> enough to bury Mitchell permanently without a
> single word from her. SO, what is she really
> doing?"
>
> I'm sure the prosecution is instructing her as to
> what she needs to do.
>
> It's well known that testifying in court is one of
> the biggest challenges for rape victims as they
> have to relive their horrific experience - and yes
> - they must give details. That's why so many
> decline to testify, which makes getting a
> conviction very difficult in many cases.
>
> I've read that most men never have the experience
> of feeling fear, unlike women who are usually
> physically weaker than men and who are often
> targets of predators and other criminals. This is
> just one factor that makes it more difficult for
> men to understand what a female victim goes
> through when being stalked or assaulted or has any
> other cause to feel fear or be physically
> threatened or injured. I will give "Lucky" the
> benefit of the doubt that this is what is causing
> him to fail to understand Elizabeth Smart or to
> feel compassion for her. If Lucky, however, is
> female, then my analysis is way off.
>
> Still, the lack of understanding and compassion is
> striking. I agree with whoever said it may be
> instructive to read up about it to gain more
> insight.

I'm wondering if this guy is a troll. I haven't seen him before yesterday and he seems bent on antagonizing people. I could be wrong.

We can only hope Mr. Mitchell becomes the prison love doll and the guards ignore his whimpering cries and look the other way.

Of course in my opinion this waste of cells known as Mr. Mitchell should be put to better use. Like clearing land mines in Afghanistan. I think this is what should be done with such people. Why have a decent person do that job while we have so many abusers and molesters here just sitting around making the rest of us worry about our children getting snatched by them.