. . . for fear of losing university funding for his science projects.

In that regard, RfM poster "darth jesus" declared:

"It's not mainstream [but] a lot of people, including the brilliant Carl Sagan, said he didn't want to go public with his beliefs in extra-terrestrials for fear of losing grants. Who can't blame him."

("Re: I am not aware of any general scientific consensus that alien creatures have visited Earth, made contact with its human population, kidnapped them, experimented on them and/or... ," posted by "darth jesus," on "Recovery from Mormonism" bulletin board, 28 October 2011, at: http://exmormon.org/phorum/read.php?2,329160,329506#msg-329506; for the entire thread, see "Wakey, Wakey Time! Science Speaks: So-Called "Out-of-Body" Alien Encounters Are Products of Human-Mind Imagination," posted by "steve benson," on "RfM" bulletin board, 27 October 2011, at: http://exmormon.org/phorum/read.php?2,329160)


Where, exactly, did this spectacular Sagan confession supposedly take place?

Backstage at a Johnny Carson "Tonight Show" episode in 1984. You heard it here first, folks.

Let's take a closer look at the details.

There is, indeed, a breathless story floating around out there in outer space, er, cyberspace about Sagan supposedly coming clean on UFOs. It's one about which "darth jesus" as well as others should be reasonably skeptical (but about which he unfortunately doesn't appear to be so inclined).

It's also the one "darth jesus" cites that actually came courtesy of a UFO-buff publication out of Denver--the "Denver UFO Examiner (DUE)"--which was passed on by "DUE" (not to be confused with "Sheri Dew") from the "ZlandCommunications News Network," or "ZNN" (not to be confused with "CNN").

"ZNN" announced that "[r]enowned astronomer and astrophysicist Dr. Carl Sagan revealed to [astronomer, professor and ufologist] Dr. J. Allen Hynek that he believed UFOs were real but avoided any public statements to prevent the loss of academic research funding. Sagan's once powerful influence on mainstream science to play-down the reality of UFOs is now in question."

Ooooooh. Actually, Sagan made plenty of statements about UFOs (and extra-terrestrial life) in public but will get to that in a bit.

First, let's examine the source of these suspect claims, as provided by the "ZNN" article itself:

"In an interview with research journalist and author Paola Leopizzi-Harris, she told 'ZlandCommunications':

“'My RECOLLECTION is that Hynek said it was backstage of one of the many Johnny Carson "Tonight" shows Sagan did. He [Sagan] BASICALLY SAID [to Hynek] in 1984, ‘I know UFOs are real, but I would not risk my research [college] funding, as you do, to talk openly about them in public.’"

Note that Leopizzi-Harris describes her claim as a "recollection" of a statement Sagan is alleged to have made backstage during the Johnny Carson "Tonight Show," in 1984, to an individual who is now dead (Hynet having died back in 1986).

Not exactly a meteoric trail of blazing evidence.

Moreover, Sagan's alleged connection to Hynek appears to be a bit speculative, with the same article describing "Sagan’s link to UFOs and POSSIBLY to Dr. Hynek [as having] occurred in 1966 when Sagan was a member of the Ad Hoc Committee to Review Project Blue Book."

("Carl Sagan Knew UFOs Are Real, Confidant Reveals, but Kept Viewpoint Quiet to Avoid Losing Funding," by Jeff Peckman, "Denver UFO Examiner," 6 May 2010, at: http://www.examiner.com/ufo-in-denver/carl-sagan-knew-ufos-are-real-confidant-reveals-but-kept-viewpoint-quiet-to-avoid-losing-funding, emphasis added)


Just how credible is "ZlandCommunications News Network"? Let's allow "ZNN" to answer in its own internet promotional where, among other amazing developments, it reports that "an ET presence [is] now engaging the planet."

The "ZlandCommunications News Network" describes itself on its blog (in rather sensationalistic language) as "a news service dedicated to the compilation, distribution and analysis of news relating to the Disclosure of information concerning the EXTRATERRESTRIAL PRESENCE ENGAGING THE PLANET AS MANIFESTED BY THE UFO PHENOMENON AND OTHER RELATED ANOMALOUS EVENTS."

("Zyland Communications" blogspot at: http://zlandcommunications.blogspot.com/, emphasis added)


Prepare for War of the Worlds.

OK, so what about the writer for the "Denver UFO Examiner," Jeff Peckman, who relayed Sagan's alleged UFO confession from "ZNN"?

To be polite, Peckman comes across as a non-mainstream "science writer" (using that term quite loosely), as demonstrated by this dramatic description of what he does:

"Jeff Peckman's 'Extraterrestrial Affairs Commission' campaign and 'alien-in-the-window-video' press conference became global news in 2008. He advocates exposing government cover-ups of UFO's and extraterrestrials."

("Jeff Peckman," at: http://www.examiner.com/ufo-in-denver/jeff-peckman)


Below are details unmentioned in the above description concerning the life, times, education and career of Jeff Peckman (including about his "Extraterrestrial Affairs Commission" and "alien-in-the-window" video):

"Peckman attended Maharishi International University in Iowa for one year. . .

"In 1998 Peckman ran for the United States Senate as a member of the Natural Law Party, receiving 0.31% of the votes and coming in fifth in a field of seven. He is a practitioner and teacher of Transcendental Meditation. He promotes Metatron Technology, which he says defends against 'harmful electromagnetic waves' by transforming them into 'desirable healthy energy.'

"In 2003, Peckman got an initiative on the ballot in Denver which said, 'Shall the voters for the city and county of Denver adopt an initiative ordinance to require the city to help ensure public safety by increasing peacefulness?' The initiative failed to gain enough votes to pass. . .

"Since 2008 Peckman has attempted to create an 'Extraterrestrial Affairs Commission' within the Denver city government, to prepare for visits from extraterrestrials. Peckman gathered 4000 signatures to place his proposal for the seven-member commission on the November 2008 general-election ballot in Denver. However, he declined to file the paperwork for the November 2008 election, in the hope that an incoming Obama administration would release material on extraterrestrials to the public.

"In 2009 the initiative received over 7000 signatures for the 2010 Ballot. After validation by the Denver Elections Division, it was determined that the number of valid signatures was insufficient, leaving 1000 valid signatures still required. This insufficiency was resolved by the end of November 2009, and Initiative 300 was put on Denver's November 2010 election ballot. The initiative was opposed by a group calling itself 'M.I.B.' ['Men in Black,' perhaps?]. In the election, Initiative 300 was rejected by 82.34% of Denver voters. . . .

"Jeff Peckman appeared on the May 3, 2011, Denver Mayoral ballot in a field of 10 other candidates, though one had dropped out before the election. Out of over 110,000 votes cast, Peckman received only 796 votes, coming in second to last place. . . .

"Peckman is an advocate for disclosure of UFO and extraterrestrial phenomena who gained media attention in 2008 when he publicly displayed a video of a purported extraterrestrial in Denver, Colorado.

"Peckman publicly screened the video on May 30, 2008, at Metropolitan State College in Denver and forbid photos by reporters. The three-minute video contained images of a 'white creature with a balloon-shaped head' and large dark eyes that blinked and looked through a window said to be 8 feet above the ground.

"The video was said to have been made by Stan Romanek, July 17, 2003, in Nebraska. A documentary including the footage was scheduled for release in 2008 but was delayed. Area skeptics used a rented alien costume and video editing software to produce a hoax version of the video that reproduced many of the movements, although experts who viewed the Romanek video assert there was no post-production editing of that video."

("Jeff Peckman," at: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jeff_Peckman)


Peckman is obviously not only out of the mainstream, he appears to be flying far outside Earth orbit.

(for an idea of some of his other wild-eyed rides, see: "Jeff Peckman: What I Examine," at: http://www.examiner.com/user-jpeckman108)
_____


Carl Sagan spilled his guts about his secret belief in UFOs on the backstage set of the Johnny Carson "Tonight Show," which was then reliably conveyed to the world by bizarro UFO-boosting websites?

What's that I hear?:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NzlG28B-R8Y


Sorry, "darth jesus," but the next sound you're about to hear is your Death Star exploding:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4bSefSLaPFs
_____


As a wrap-up, what did Carl Sagan say for the record about extra-terrestrial intelligence and UFOs?

Despite what "darth jesus'" may insist about Sagan's supposed "belief" in "extra-terrestrials," Sagan appears to have taken a decidedly more measured approach to the question.

What Sagan did say was that he regarded scientific investigation into whether extra-terrestrial intelligence exists as a project to be approached with a mixture of personal exhilaration and hard-science skepticism.

The well-respected "PBS" science-reporting source, "NOVA," reported:

"Carl Sagan was captivated by the notion of life beyond Earth. Yet, in [a NOVA] interview, conducted shortly before the well-known champion of science died in 1996, Sagan says that extraterrestrial intelligence is 'a wonderful prospect, but requires the most severe and rigorous standards of evidence.' Sagan doubted that the various proponents of so-called 'alien abduction' making headlines in the 1990s had met those scientific standards."

In a publicly-broadcast television interview with "NOVA," Sagan was asked to "[s]peculate for a moment on the parts of human nature, the commonality of believing in abductions, or aliens anyway, and the part of human nature that wants to search for other life forms in the universe."

Sagan responded:

"I personally have been captured by the notion of extraterrestrial life, and especially extraterrestrial intelligence, from childhood. It swept me up, and I've been involved in sending spacecraft to nearby planets to look for life and in the radio search for extraterrestrial intelligence. It would be an absolutely transforming event in human history.

"But, the stakes are so high on whether it's true or false that we must demand the more rigorous standards of evidence--precisely because it's so exciting. That's the circumstance in which our hopes may dominate our skeptical scrutiny of the data. So, we have to be very careful. There have been a few instances in the [past]. We thought we found something, and it always turned out to be explicable.

"So, a kind of skepticism is routinely applied to the radio search for extraterrestrial intelligence by its most fervent proponents. I do not see [in] the alien abduction situation a similar rigorous application of scientific skepticism by its proponents. Instead, I see enormous acceptance at face value, and leading the witness, and all sorts of suggestions. Plus, the contamination by the general culture of this idea.

"It seems to me there is a big difference between the two approaches to extraterrestrial intelligence, although I'm frequently written to [to] say how could I search for extraterrestrial intelligence and disbelieve that we're being visited. I don't see any contradiction at all. It's a wonderful prospect, but requires the most severe and rigorous standards of evidence."

Sagan was also asked to "comment on . . . the quality of the evidence that is put forward by these so-called 'abduction proponents.'"

Sagan responded:

"Well, it's almost entirely anecdote. Someone says something happened to them, and people can say anything. The fact that someone says something doesn't mean it's true. Doesn't mean they're lying, but it doesn't mean it's true.

"To be taken seriously, you need physical evidence that can be examined at leisure by skeptical scientists: a scraping of the whole ship, and the discovery that it contains isotopic ratios that aren't present on Earth, chemical elements from the so-called island of stability, very heavy elements that don't exist on Earth. Or material of absolutely bizarre properties of many sorts--electrical conductivity or ductility. There are many things like that that would instantly give serious credence to an account.

"But there's no scrapings, no interior photographs, no filched page from the captain's log book. All there are are stories. There are instances of disturbed soil, but I can disturb soil with a shovel. There are instances of people claiming to flash lights at UFOs and the UFOs flash back. But pilots of airplanes can also flash back, especially if they think it would be a good joke to play on the UFO enthusiast. So, that does not constitute good evidence.

"A very interesting example of this sort of thing is the so-called crop circles in England in which wheat and rye and other grains--these beautiful immense circles appeared and then--this was in the '70s and '80s--and then over progressive years, more and more complex geometries. And there were lots of people who said that these were made by UFOs that were landing and that it was too complex or too highly mathematical to be a hoax.

"And it turns out that two blokes in Southern England, at their regular bar one night, thought it would be a good idea to make a kind of hoax to see if they could lure in UFO enthusiasts. And they succeeded every time--every time an explanation was proferred: a peculiar kind of wind, they then made another one which contradicted that hypothesis. And they were very pleased when it was said that no human intelligence could do this. That gave them great satisfaction. And for 15 years, they succeeded in these nocturnal expeditions using rope and board--all the technology they needed.

"And in their 60's, they finally confessed to the press with a demonstration of how it was done. And, of course, the confession received very little play in the media. And the claims of alien influence had received prominent exposure."

("Carl Sagan on Alien Abduction," broadcast by "NOVA," 27 February 1996, at: http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/nova/space/sagan-alien-abduction.html)


In his magnificent book, "The Demon Haunted World: Science as a Candle in the Dark" (which won Sagan the "Los Angeles Times"' Book Prize for Science and Technology), he pointedly debunked myth after myth surrounding claims regarding extra-terrestrial life and alleged E.T. contact with Earth's inhabitants.

These myths include, as Sagan listed and commented on them, the following:

--the "Martin canal myth"

Based on "Mariner" and "Viking" spacecraft exploratory missions to the Red Planet, Sagan concluded that supposed evidence for intelligently-designed "hundreds of 'classical' canals carrying water from the polar caps through the arid deserts to the parched equatorial cities simply did not exist." He dismissed such claims as being based on "an illusion; some malfunction of the human hand-eye-brain combination at the limit of resolution when we peer through an unsteady and turbulent atmosphere."

(p. 49)


--astronaut John Glenn's "evocative report of 'fireflies' surrounding his space capsule"

Sagan complained that Glenn's strange report helped fire up unsubstantiated claims, noting that "every time an astronaut reported seeing something not immediately understood, there were those who deduced 'aliens.' Prosaic explanations--specks of paint flecking off the ship in the space environment, say--were dismissed with contempt. The lure of the marvelous blunts our critical faculties."

(pp. 49-50)


--other supposedly "overlooked" anomalies that, during the Apollo lunar landings, had allegedly been missed by "NASA scientists and astronauts"

Sagan noted that these features--according to "non-experts" armed with small telescopes and "flying saucer zealots" writing for aerospace magazines--included "gigantic Latin letters and Arabic numerals inscribed on the lunar surface, pyramids, highways, crosses, [and] glowing UFOs."

Other supposedly unnoticed realities included "[b]ridges [that] were reported on the Moon, radio antennas, the tracks of enormous crawling vehicles, and the devastation left by machines able to slice craters in two."

Sagan observed that "[e]very one these claims . . . turn[ed] out to be a natural lunar geological formation misjudged by amateur analysts, internal reflections in the optics of the astronauts' Hasselblad cameras, and the like."

Sagan added that "[s]ome enthusiasts discerned the long shadows of ballistic missiles--Soviet missiles it was ominously confided, aimed at America. The rockets, also described as 'spires,' turn[ed] out to be low hills casting long shadows when the Sun is near the lunar horizon. A little trigonometry dispel[led] the mirage."

(ibid.)


--"visit[s] by extraterrestrial beings in UFOs"

Sagan rejected the claims of what he described as "self-described abductees," concluding that while "most seem very sincere," they are "caught in the grip of powerful emotions."

He skeptically asked, "[C]ould there really be a massive alien invasion, repugnant medical procedures performed on millions of innocent men, women, and children; humans apparently used as breeding stock over many decades--and all this not generally known and dealt with by responsible media, physicians, scientists, and the governments sworn to protect the lives and well-being of their citizens? Or, as many have suggested, is there a massive government conspiracy to keep the citizens from the truth?"

(pp. 64-65)


Sagan questioned the very nature of these supposed alien escapades conducted at the expense of the Earth's human inhabitants:

"Why should [alien] beings so advanced in physics and engineering--crossing vast interstellar distances, walking like ghosts through walls--be so backward when it comes to biology?

"Why, if the aliens are trying to do their business in secret, wouldn't they perfectly expunge all memories of the abductions? Too hard for them to do?

"Why are the examining instruments macroscopic and so reminiscent of what can be found at the neighborhood medical clinic?

"Why go to all the trouble of repeated sexual encounters between aliens and humans?

"Why not steal a few egg and sperm cells, read the full genetic code, and then manufacture as many copies as you like with whatever genetic variations happen to suit your fancy? Even we humans, who as yet cannot quickly cross interstellar space or slither through walls, are able to clone cells.

"How could humans be the result of an alien breeding program if we share 99.6 percent of our active genes with the chimpanzees? We're more closely related to chimps than rats are to mice.

"The preoccupation with reproduction in these accounts raises a warning flag--especially considering the uneasy balance between sexual impulse and societal repression that has always characterized the human condition, and the fact that we live in a time fraught with numerous ghastly accounts, both true and false, of childhood sexual abuse."

(p. 65)


--"abduct[ions] by aliens"

Sagan complained that some pollsters "never asked [Americans surveyed] whether [they had] been abducted by aliens. They deduced it. Those who've ever awakened with strange presences around them, who've ever unaccountably seemed to fly through the air, and so on, [had] therefore been abducted. The pollsters didn't even check to see if sensing presences, flying, etc., were part of the same or separate incidents. Their conclusion--that millions of Americans have been so abducted--is spurious, based on careless experimental design."

(ibid.)


--"On the matter of UFOs, how strong are the proofs?"

Not very strong at all, answered Sagan:

"I had been interested in the possibility of extraterrestrial life from childhood, from long before I ever heard of flying saucers. I've remained fascinated long after my early enthusiasm for UFOs waned--as I understood more about that remorseless taskmaster called the scientific method.

"Everything hinges on the matter of evidence. On so important question, the evidence must be airtight. The more we want it to be true, the more careful we have to be. No witness' say-so is good enough. People make mistakes. People play practical jokes. People stretch the truth for money or attention or fame. People occasionally misunderstand what they're seeing. People sometimes even see things that aren't there.

"Essentially all the UFO cases were anecdotes, something asserted.

"UFOs were described variously as rapidly moving or hovering, disc-shaped, cigar-shaped, or ball-shaped; moving silently or noisily, with fiery exhaust, or with no exhaust at all; accompanied by flashing lights, or uniformly glowing with a silvery cast, or self-luminous.

"The diversity of the observations hinted that they had no common origin, and that the use of such terms as UFOs or 'flying saucers' served only to confuse the issue by grouping generically a set of unrelated phenomena. . . .

"Most people honestly reported what they saw, but what they saw were natural, if unfamiliar, phenomena. Some UFO sightings turned out to be unconventional aircraft, conventional aircraft with unusual lighting patterns, high-altitude balloons, luminescent insects, planets seen under unusual atmospheric conditions, optical mirages and looming, lenticular clouds, ball lightning, sundogs, meteors including green fireballs, and satellites, nosecones, and rocket boosters spectacularly re-entering the atmosphere. Just conceivably, a few might be small comets dissipating in the upper air. At least some radar reports were due to 'anomalous propagation'--radio waves traveling curved paths due to atmospheric temperature inversions. Tradtionally, they were also called radar 'angels'--somethng that seems to be there but isn't. You could have simultaneous visual and radar sightings without there being any 'there' there. . . .

"Many UFO photos turned out to be fakes--small models hanging by thin threads, often photographed in a double exposure. A UFO seen by thousands of people at a football game turned out to be a college fraternity prank--a piece of cardboard, some candles,and a thin plastic bag that dry cleaning comes in, all cobbled together to make a rudimentary hot air balloon.

"The original crashed saucer account (with the little alien men and their perfect teeth) turned out to be a straight-out hoax. Frank Scully, columnist for 'Variety,' passed on a story told by an oilman friend; it played a central dramatic role in Scully's best-selling 1950 book, 'Behind the Flying Saucers.' Sixteen dead aliens from Venus, each three feet high, had been found in one of three crashed saucers. Booklets with alien pictograms had been recovered. The military was covering up. The implications were profound.

"The hoaxers were Silas Newton, who said he used radio waves to prospect for gold and oil, and a mysterious 'Dr. Gee' who turned out to be a Mr. GeBauer. Newton produced a gear from the UFO machinery and flashed close-up saucer photos. But he did not allow close inspection. When a prepared skeptic, through sleight of hand, switched gears and sent the alien artifact away for analysis, it turned out to be made of kitchen-pot aluminum. . . .

"All in all, the alleged evidence seemed thin--most often devolving into gullibility, hoax, hallucination, misunderstanding of the natural world, hopes and fears disguised as evidence, and a craving for attention, fame, and fortune. Too bad, I remember thinking.

"Since then, I've been lucky enough to be involved in sending spacecraft to other planets to look for life; and in listening for possible radio signals from alien civilizations, if any, on planets of distant stars. We've had a few tantalizing moments.

"But if the suspected signal isn't available for every grumpy skeptic to pick over, we cannot call it evidence of extraterrestrial life--no matter how appealing we find the notion. We'll just have to wait until, if such a time ever comes, better data are available. We've not yet found compelling evidence for life behond the Earth. We're only at the very beginning of the search, though. New and better information might emerge, for all we know, tomorrow.

"I don't think anyone could be more interested than I am in whether we're being visited. It would save me so much time and effort to be able to study extraterrestrial life directly and nearby, rather than at best indirectly and at a great distance. Even if the aliens are short, dour and sexually obsessed--if they're here, I want to know about them."

(pp. 66, 69-73)

(Carl Sagan, "The Demon Haunted World: Science as a Candle in the Dark,' in Chapter 4, "Aliens" [New York, New York: Ballantine Books, 1997]; for additional Sagan commentary on UFOs, see Chapter 5, "Spoofing and Secrecy," pp. 81-96; and Chapter 6, "Hallucinations," pp. 99-104)


Sagan was a cautious, healthy, inquisitive and demanding skeptic when it came to evaluating claims of, and beliefs in, extra-terrestrial intelligence/E.T. visits to Earth. It is safe to say that he would not appreciate those who misrepresent his views or his mindset. Put that under your microscope and examine it carefully.
_____


In the meantime, are we next going to hear that aliens from beyond our galaxy have dropped by Earth and delivered up the Book of Mormon gold plates?

Why, of course we are.

Just ask the Angel Moroni when he floats down through your bedroom ceiling tonight. :)



Edited 52 time(s). Last edit at 10/28/2011 10:23PM by steve benson.

...he spends more than a whole chapter refuting the claims of the UFO culture.
He freely admits that he thinks, statistically, life, and even intelligence, must be occuring elsewhere in the universe. He was, after all, an official for SETI for something like thirty years...and that's exactly what qualifies him to say that there has NEVER been ANY credible evidence of ET visitations or communications. He chased that bullshit all over the globe, and it was ALWAYS found to be natural or artificial occurrences.
He was actually a staunch critic of junk-science and pseudo-science...

IMO if Carl were alive today he'd likely be considered the fifth Horseman of secular humanism along with Dennett, Dawkins, Harris, and Hitchens.

I've been giving copies of DHW to friends and family stuck in religions (including kolobian) for the past couple of years now. I love Sagan's approach and writing style especially on the subject of magical (non-scientific) thinking.

I loathe new age "woo" as much as any feverish faith-promoting rumors. They're very similar, IMO.

There's a big difference between believing in some kind of life on other planets, and thinking they're visiting us.

Steve Benson knows that Extra Terrestrials are visiting earth but is afraid to admit it because it would compromise his job as a political cartoonist. He is also afraid that he would lose credibility with the hard-nosed skeptical, atheist crowd.

Now Steve might deny this, which fits perfectly with my claim.

that Steve is actually one of the reptillians that lives in the catacombs beneath Salt Lake City... ;P

But Sagan DID say he believed in aliens. He told me himself when he visited me in Angel form in that vision I had with my spiritual eyes.

I cried when I heard that the morg necro-dunked him.

They can have Hitler, but not Carl.

Would you care if I mumbled over some papers in a bucket, lit them on fire, and proclaimed Carl Sagan a Scientologist?

Since it's a hoax, it's not worth any tears unless you believe it has some validity somewhere, somehow, beneath the clear blue sky...

Anagrammy

Does this mean I'm not going to get my alien anal probe?

wow. well, if a whole post was initially devote to something i said i must have touched a nerve. or three.

you even went far enough to call people names (the ones who didn't agree) and started getting scared that you might "lose". whatever.

you are not interested in finding the truth on this topic or the original one. you are looking for followers to tell you how right you are. "you want religion, don't you"

you took sides based on ONE (1) lousy article from msnbc. hahaha..what a joke. it suited what you believed. fine. but it's not the final scientific answer.


somehow the whole topic of "alien dreams" deviated into carl sagan. you can finally read the whole post here.


ref: http://exmormon.org/phorum/read.php?2,329160,329385#msg-329385


i said that aliens and things was not mainstream. therefore, not many scientists were devoted to the topic.



i mentioned that carl sagan in one opportunity had said that he didn't want to go public with his belief in extraterrestrials for fears of losing grants.


you steve said no, then you edited your post like 10 times, then you finally said yes and even posted links that corroborated that.



then i said "amen, there you go".



then you said more less "well, it's hard to believe because it comes from a tabloid". fair enough.

but from 1984 to 1996 carl sagan had plenty of time to change his views.

it wasn't the first time he did change his mind. in fact, in "demon haunted world" he insinuates his complete disbelief on the subject. then he gave interviews in which he said he believed in aliens.


then i went to bed. there was nothing else to talk about other than "you said this and that". argh. blah. nothing of substance.




------
Now...going back to the "alien dreams", you steve picked one (1) single article from msnsb to top it all off, and you adopted as the bible (or book of mormon)

that research provided, in your view, **conclusive** evidence that it was the brain. you didn't bother to find flaws on the design of the study, nothing. just adopted it.


is that the general consensus from scientists? that's the brain? no, it isn't. more data are needed.










unreal.

way to go steve! hey FARMS might have openings for your scientific mind. wide open and willing to accept new ideas. they need wanna-be lawyers and scientists just like you.

the serious ones already left or got kicked out or got ridiculed .




dude, some of your posts are really good and insightful.


but sometimes you act like a real arrogant jerk straight from a mormon sunday school class. and now you come and devote an entire post to try discredit me you stupid hillbilly.

i won't play your goddamn lawyer word games. i don't like bullies either.


instead of picking "internets" fights you should read some more and build from what we have so far. expand knowledge, and collaborate to get to the bottom of the core issue. either that or go back to your crayons.


now leave me alone. really. just leave me alone.

--You didn't touch a nerve, "darth jesus," so don't take credit where credit isn't due. What happened during our exchange last night was that the original thread was closed before I could finish a post, so I continued with a new thread (per Admin policy allowance, as you should know, as it relates to existing board rules).

--Your comments about Sagan on the subject of "aliens" (i.e., extra-terrestrials) were ones that deserved to be fundamentally challenged, so I quoted extensively from Sagan's "Demon Haunted World" on the subject as he himself addressed it, as well as questioned the credibility of your claim (based on UFO-buff "journalism") that Sagan secretly backstage at a Johnny Carson show confessed to not going public about "extra-terrestrials" because he didn't want to lose revenue streams. (By the way, for the record, the buff stuff claimed Sagan didn't want to go public about "UFOs").

--You argue that "from 1984 to 1996 Carl Sagan had plenty of time to change his views." But if Sagan had, in fact, changed his views on aliens and UFOs between 1984 and 1996, then please account for his clear views as he set them forth in "Demon Haunted World" (published in March 1997)--where Sagan did not suggest in any way, shape or form that he had come to the view that the existence of extraterrestrial life or extraterrestrial UFOs had been scientifically proven. Moreover, Sagan's criticisms of unproven ufology claims about extraterrestrial life were publicly broadcast even earlier (in February 1996) on the "NOVA" interview. You have not cited a single statement from Sagan himself where he said he "believes in aliens." If such statements from Sagan do exist, please quote them directly, and in context.

--The one Bible verse which I actually quoted per the "alien dreams" article from msnbc was not mine, but was referenced by me as a response to RfM poster "get her done," who had attempted early on in that particular thread to debunk the cited research study by using that particular scriptural passage (meaning the study conducted on prompting "alien dreams" in half-awake or increasingly lucid subjects).

--The consensus of mainstream science is that OBEs and NDEs are products of intra-cranial neurophysiology, as has been pointed out and cited many times before in the ongoing RfM debate per the topic. The cited study on "alien dreams" simply supplemented that fact.

--New ideas (i.e., hypotheses) are worthy of scientific acceptance when the data assembled to support them in theory form can be empirically observed, tested and falsified. It's all part of the scientific method, as Sagan noted in what I quoted from his own lips.

--I edit frequently for spelling and to include in additional points (as is my common practice) but not to change anything of substance that I originally posted if other posters have already replied directly to the post. If changes of a meaningful nature are made by me, I so note in the thread in which the OP appears.

--I am only coming off to you as "an arrogant jerk straight from a mormon sunday school class" because I have extensively cited, sourced, referenced and quoted all kinds of data that serve tp significantly debunk your original assertions. Blame it on the arrogance of fact, if you will. I'm fine with that. :)

--Now you are swearing and calling me a "bully" because your arguments have largely been undermined by laid-out evidence relevant to the Sagan debate in which we have been engaged.

--You should read more from the mouth of Sagan and quit worrying about what I read. What I read is what I provided to you directly from Sagan, since the subject of debate was what Sagan thought and said on matters extra-terrestrial.

--Wow, if you want to be left alone, then don't post in an open forum--and stay out of my threads.

Looks like I hit a nerve.

:)



Edited 20 time(s). Last edit at 10/29/2011 04:27PM by steve benson.

darth jesus Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------

>
> i mentioned that carl sagan in one opportunity had
> said that he didn't want to go public with his
> belief in extraterrestrials for fears of losing
> grants.
>
>

Actually, what you did was point out that someone CLAIMED Carl Sagan "didn't want to go public with his belief in extraterrestrials for fears of losing grants." which is not the same as showing what Sagan actually wanted or did not want. Seriously, to state something as fact because one individual made a claim is silly.

Darth Jesus complains about Steve Benson:

"...you even went far enough to call people names"

Darth Jesus goes on to say to Steve:

"...you stupid hillbilly..."

"...your goddamn lawyer word games..."

"...i don't like bullies either..."

I can't give much credence to your viewpoint when you engage in the exact same thing that you complain about Steve (supposedly) doing; to me that is faulty reasoning.

Besides being a weak debating technique, not guaranteed to advance your argument, it's actually against board rules to name-call. Your post could get nuked for that.

Also, why insult "hillbillies"? They don't deserve it!

As for "lawyer word games", I'm not sure how that applies to Steve as to my knowledge he isn't a lawyer.

Then you say "...you should..." to Steve, also questionable as who amongst us likes to be told what we "should" do?

And the final argument of a lot of those who get irritated or frustrated by Steve, or those who care less about the argument than just criticizing Steve:

"...either that or go back to your crayons."

Which other posters here get criticized for the work they do? It mystifies me that people denigrate the fine art (literally) and skill of political/editorial cartoonists, a field well respected in human history and immortalized by prestigious awards and other recognition of fine work, the Pulitzer among them.

ETB, former Mormon prophet, recognized the power in the pen/cil of the cartoonist who happened to be his grandson, as evidenced by his plea to Steve, "go easy on us [Mormon Church]". I think that's actually a compliment.

Disclaimer: I haven't read the previous thread/s so am only going by the posts in this one (my computer was down for a few days and I'm only just now rejoining the cyber world). I'm interested in healthy debate and good topics. Too bad it so often comes down to name-calling, which doesn't indicate a sound argument to me.

If you want Steve to "leave [you] alone", DJ, you might just stop participating in his threads. If any poster engages in a thread though, even if it's unrelated or a different one altogether, or they're tired of the discussion or whatever, it's an open invitation to everyone to respond or comment on what they write, with or without their further participation.

On a different note, as for aliens, proof of their existence could be very good news for Mormons, giving credence to some of their theological beliefs. I never even heard about that side of things, as a convert, which would likely have quite freaked me out. Talk about woo-woo - that's too much for me, especially mixed in with religion. Facts/science about it, I'm interested in, fantasy not so much.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 10/30/2011 05:30PM by Nightingale.

Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 10/31/2011 12:52AM by steve benson.

When I read those posted claims that he apparently believed UFOs were connected to extra-terrestrial civilizations, I was skeptical. I immediately recalled that he had made specific challenges for evidence that had never come close to being met.

Thanks for dealing with this subject in detail, Steve!

Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 10/28/2011 07:42PM by steve benson.

On behalf of Carl, I thank you. ;)

It's one thing to participate in SETI and realize the vastness of the universe might have other opportunities for life.

It's quite another to think aliens would be part of a conspiracy story, have a general human form and be interested in probing humans to take over breeding (or whatever).

A life form as we recognize it using nucleic acid replication probably would have evolved according to the environment, gravity, atmosphere, etc. under which it was subjected. This means they probably would not look like us. We were evolved from a series of contingencies and circumstances unique to our planet.

Carl got us thinking about the universe and the potential. He did not mean this involves the nonsense the usual alien believers usually spout today, IMO.

Having an open mind is not the same thing as having such a loose mind.

Please refer all future questions regarding Carl Sagan to me.

A different thing altogether. ;o))

and it is quite probable they exist.

It is a totally different matter to claim that they have visited Earth.

Think about the technology and logistics it would take to visit another star system.

. . . he did not see any current compelling empirical scientific evidence providing actual, demonstrable proof of their existence and, in fact, strongly ridiculed UFO buff claims for purported E.T.s and their UFOs as being absurd, illogical and non-factual.



Edited 4 time(s). Last edit at 10/30/2011 05:43PM by steve benson.

I deal with "Grays" and hybrid (alien-human) entities on a regular basis and can attest to their reality!

Edited 3 time(s). Last edit at 11/01/2011 03:52AM by steve benson.