I know this may sound crazy, but occasionally I think to myself, 'what if the church actually IS true?'

Then I get nervous that I'll burn for denying the holy ghost, the unforgivable sin. After all, I was once a faithful member of the 'true church' and have turned my back on it.

Anybody else ever have weak moments of doubt?

No. Never. BUT I stayed in TSCC for quite a long time as a doubter and I didn't leave until I was 100% sure it was false.

As for the denying the holy ghost part.. I thought you can't get in trouble for that unless you were granted some special holy experience and then intentionally turned your back on it knowing full well it was true. At least this is how it was described to me by my seminary teacher... she told us that in all likelyhood none of us would ever have to worry about denying the holy ghost since we'd never have that opportunity.

with a LOT of other problems too! I'd just as soon be with Satan for eternity, thank you.

By the way, your doubts are totally normal. But the more you study about Mormonism and the longer you are away from it, and hopefully establishing you OWN philosophy of life, the more and more these doubts will diminish ...

...that's my experience anyway. : )

They could have their damn celestial kingdom. There were so few of them I was interested in spending an eternity with. I looked around and realized that the people I really loved were, by mormon standards, going to be terrestrials and that was where I wanted to be...IF it was true.

As far as the denying of the holy ghost thing, the members will give you an automatic out on that one. Like a Get out of Jail Free card. They will declare that you never had a true testimony to begin with because, if you had, you would never have lost it. To burn for denying the holy ghost, from what I was told, you had to be pretty high up. Higher even, yea verily, than a Stake President.

Rest easy. You're among friends. It takes time to pull off all the strange layers. Mormonism like an ogre (see "Shrek"), and therefore an onion. It comes apart in layers.

Nope. I don't have doubts about the truth of something that is demonstrably false.

I think those weak moments of doubts are just residual effects of the brainwashing. Hopefully you'll recover from it soon enough.

i feel the same. i always had doubts about it being true. ALWAYS. Once i realized it was false, i've never had doubts of that. NEVER.

I don't have the stress anymore of trying to make myself believe in stuff that makes no sense. Feels pretty good.

and if God wanted us to know the truth of it he would send liars and con-men/ in corporate CEO suits to tell us.

If there is a God we would be playing this 'by the spirit" game of 'knowing' it's true.

Isn't it funny that as a TBM, I sometimes found myself wondering what if it wasn't true. I kept telling myself to stick with it and then I'd be okay either way. I was ignoring the mind-numbing repression - probably because my mind was numb.

Now that I've walked away, I don't wonder if it's true. It just isn't possible in any way.

The day I had a "revelation" that it wasn't true, I was 98% sure that I was right in leaving. That other 2% bothered me for a week or two. But no matter how much I tried to worry myself about it, I couldn't ignore the 98%. I soon realize that the paranoid 2% could easily live with the fact that even if it WERE true, I didn't want it.

I always used to think that...what if it isn't true? As a teenager all my friends were nevermo and they were the best friends anyone could want. Very moral and kind and just a lot of fun. I wanted to spend all my time with them. Never at church with the boring mormon kids. So it did bother me that I was supposed to think I was better than them. I questioned the truthfullness all the time-but you are so busy being a good mormon you really don't step back and really think about it.

well, look at it this way..... if the church is true you won't "burn" and I doubt anyone here is going to be consigned to outer darkness.

telestial or terrestrial - take your pick... there are both supposed to be quite nice

Nope.

Mormonism is insignificant in the world scheme of things.

The world is full of people who are living the "what if" scenario with their respective religions. Mormons are one in about one thousand.... not worth worrying about.

Mormonism gets even less respect in my eyes because of its history and goofy doctrines.

For me...it's, "Yeah! I escaped their clutches!"

Spend some time looking into world religions, mythology, anthropology, etc. Your view of Mormonism will get smaller.

For a few years I wondered...I even had a psychotic break one night ( I was drunk and other things) regarding the whole kingdoms crap.

A year later a friend showed me the video about the BoM and DNA and I was 100% certain TSCC is a complete and total fraud. Science trumps religious tripe everytime.

this is the way I've been able to face my doubts about my doubts:

-- God, if he / she / it is out there, is infinitely more just than the worst man made court. If it was true, I will be able to defend myself before the God. (e.g., "But how can I be in trouble? Look at JS -- he was boinking teenagers! All I did was doubt. I was still a good to my fellow man")

-- If the mormon afterlife is a reality, I will feel rotten having thrown away the power to create worlds, BUT, man, the Telestial and Terrestial kingdoms sound like a great consolation prize. And, if I continue being a good boy, even as an unbeliever, I've already been baptized, and will at least make it into the lower kingdom of the CK. Ok, I'll probably be an eternal eunuch -- that kind of sucks.

-- If my DW doesn't come with me, she'll be ok. She'll be married to some good mormon man forever and ever. As long as I can visit my kids (celestial visitation rights?), I'm ok with that.

Or it could all be a crock of BS and we'll all go to heaven, all go to hell, or all go to nothing. I better start making this world a better place and stop worrying.

nope. ditto what an above poster said--that if even 1% was true, I'd want nothing to do with it in the afterlife and sure as hell wouldn't try to work my way toward it by working for it, giving it money, etc.

sounds like sheer and utter hell.

When I first came to the conclusion that it might possibly be true (on my mission), I decided to still go to church after for many years, spending half the time inactive. Basically, eventually I had to figure it out. I went through every single possible doctrine and inflection to it, and basically proved them all wrong to myself using all sorts of means. So no, I know it's not true like I know that I'll wake up in the morning.

On the incredibly infinitesimally small chance that it is true, well, we have much bigger problems to worry about, such as a God who likes to play tricks on us. Or not having been valiant in the premortal life by being tricked into following Satan's plan by God by becoming a Mormon (you know, because they don't like free agency but eternal black mail..) I, for one, would rather go against such a God and be doomed to hell, because that seems like a much more enjoyable experience.

If it was true, I would probably actually work hard to not get into heaven. Who would want to spend the rest of eternity doing missionary work, not being able to enjoy the better things of life, and with people who are holier than thou?

But it isn't true. ;o))

I left before the internet and it never occurred to me that there was so much damning history and doctrine.

I just decided I didn't want to spend eternity with a God who demanded to be worshiped the way the Mormon God does. I don't like people with ego problems.

If it was true I was willing to take the consequences if God was going to play hardball.

Then I stumbled in here years later and now I see that is is beyond a scam, it is a colossal joke. I can't take it seriously.

the 4 magik words a missionary used to get in the door... he said, "what if it's true?", and my mother let he and his companion in and my parents and siblings were baptized and it took us 30 damn years to get out!

this disproves the bible, thus proving all of christianity, judaism and islam wrong.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 11/13/2010 01:55PM by Nick Humphrey.

Where does the 6000 years old tag come from?

Jon Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Where does the 6000 years old tag come from?

here's a hilarious answer from
http://www.answersingenesis.org/articles/1999/11/05/dinosaurs-and-the-bible
"
As you add up all of the dates, and accepting that Jesus Christ, the Son of God, came to Earth almost 2000 years ago, we come to the conclusion that the creation of the Earth and animals (including the dinosaurs) occurred only thousands of years ago (perhaps only 6000!), not millions of years. Thus, if the Bible is right (and it is!), dinosaurs must have lived within the past thousands of years.
...
The placement of Adam at 4,000 BC has a rather long history. Perhaps the most famous attempt was made by the Irish Anglican Bishop of Ussher, who calculated the date as 4,004 (and even calculated it down to the month and day!).
"

from FAIR:
http://en.fairmormon.org/Mormonism_and_science/Age_of_the_Earth
"
The Bible dictionary says the Earth is 7,000 years old. Doctrine & Covenants say the 7 seals of the Earth represent 1,000 years. Yet scientific dating places the appearance of modern humans well before 4,000 BC. Can you explain the contradiction, if there is one?
"

then FAIR tries something sneaky here:
"
Doctrine and Covenants 77:6–7 contains the only canonized statement specifically identifying the age of the earth:

6 Q[uestion]. What are we to understand by the book which John saw,[4] which was sealed on the back with seven seals?
A[nswer]. We are to understand that it contains the revealed will, mysteries, and the works of God; the hidden things of his economy concerning this earth during the seven thousand years of its continuance, or its temporal existence.
7 Q. What are we to understand by the seven seals with which it was sealed?
A. We are to understand that the first seal contains the things of the first thousand years, and the second also of the second thousand years, and so on until the seventh.

Like many passages in scripture, this one is open to some interpretation. A literal reading has led some to conclude that the Earth is 7,000 years old. But other take a more symbolic or figurative interpretation that the 1,000-year dispensations are figurative in the sense of "large spans of time." This follows the Hebrew use of "thousand" ('elef), which sometimes meant a literal one thousand, and other times was more generically used to indicate "a large amount."
"

except josephs interpretation was given in ENGLISH fcukwads! if he was really inspired he would have said otherwise, he said "thousand". some prophet...



Edited 3 time(s). Last edit at 11/13/2010 03:58PM by Nick Humphrey.

Nope even if it is true the CK is the last place I want to end up. Better to just be dead forever in my opinion.

I believe that religion, any human religion, is "of the earth." It is our human way of expressing spiritual feelings, and it arises from particular cultures, particular times and particular circumstances.

I believe in a God who has sufficient spiritual and intellectual development to be beyond earthy concerns and expressions. He/she understands it; he respects and enjoys our diversity of religious experience, but he is above and beyond all that.

I think that God is so much more than one petty, insignificant little religion (in the greater scheme of things.)

If you are, generally speaking, a good, kind, decent person, then I don't see why you'd feel that there is anything to worry about when you pass from this life.

And if YOU are 'having second thoughts,' it just means that you haven't yet researched enough and therefore learned enough yet about the TRUE history, doctrines, and practices to realize how much truth the church deliberately withholds from its members.

Once you find out, you will be shocked and angry at how the church has lied to you over the years for the benefit of the few at the top!

Not anymore--ever. And as others have stated--even if it were true, I don't want anything to do with their CK, etc.

or thousands of other religious beliefs throughout the history of humanity.

Mormonism follows the same pattern of many of them, relying on supernatural claims, etc.

It's a unique American God Myth that is alive many generations later,(nearly 200 yrs) and is practiced world wide (or in many areas, anyhow.) It's a generational, cultural, familial, traditional religion that appeals to many people.

It's part of the dozens of religions that any human being has the RIGHT to believe and practice, just as I did for many decades.

I don't believe the claims, anymore, but I don't believe the claims of most religions either.

but that doesn't make ALL of their ideas or customs alright.

particulary their conceptualization of god living on another planet & the one aspect of god that could live with a person- running away when ever you disagree with them- particularly destructive, disempowering,
like something you might use to hurt someone or keep them in submission to you. Telling them somthing destructive to their existence or being, such as that, and asking them not only to imagine or belive that they exist, separate from the love / of god/ or love within the univers, or love within the universal field, or unity of existinng- metaphysically-
is a mind not number, a mind trap lowering people's self esteem, their possibilities, their imagination-
because that aspect of this church teaches people to imagine they can exist in a cut off state, separate from a field of love-

that's a bad thing to tell someone. & make them believe it is a real wicked thing to do.


that's separate from polygeny, asking someone not to be mutally loving others in mutliple twinings, but left alone unloved possibly into eternity- an infinity of empty arms and empty nights- while your 'true love' ph holder loves others INSTEAD of you. SOME PLAN.
first I'm not a masochist.
second that isn't about mutual love, fairness, justice or anything.

& I just don't project a lack of love into infinity for anyone, either you or me. But that is the story someone made up to mentally entrap others and either manipulate them or release some of them from a victorian guilt so some of them at least could be more sexually free (in their 1800s utopia without internet, sports cars, ipods, youtube, online libraries, digital photography, handheld camaras for the masses or anything)
so they made something up that worked for some of them.

right now that same story line entraps doesn't free and does a number on their descendents, trapping them in a story line that is out of time- & while mentally freeing to some men sexually(not women) 150 years ago. In fact it fit the victorian story line about sex being 'bad' or 'unvirtuous' and gave women (multiple wives) release time like it was a job they didn't want.
But now its 2010 and guess what! being put onto 'release time' is punishment!
So brother joseph's pychological line worked only for some individuals in his own time.

its dated and needs badly to be updated as it is not meeing people's needs in this reality.

by the way, just because part of human life are nice, & the church noticing them are nice touches
doesn't mean anything about the whole package
is a spiritual destination planning anything except a holding port, a tank.

its not the right place for me.

No. I've not even a tiny smidgeon of a doubt. I am 100% confident that it's not true, because my testimony of its untruth is based on indisputable evidence which is as long as my arm.

One has to really have their head buried in the sand to not see it as a fraud, if they've actually studied all of the evidence which is out there against their claims.

I know that TBMs like to say, "Well your spirit still knows it's true." Sorry, no. It doesn't.

Actually when GBH said it was either 100% true, or even if it was 1% off, it was false, I figured he was admitting that it was FALSE. I have seen enough of their actions to come to the conclusion that it's just another man made church with no more truth or falsity than any other church group or cause.

Don't forget that your own critical thinking skills are slowly getting back their own legs. You, like us, have spent years letting the brethren do the "thinking" for us. Now, of course, we realize that the Mormon synonym for "thinking" is "spinning."

They have to teach us to rely on feelings rather than facts (just pray about it - what if it's true? - you'll have a burning, etc) BECAUSE THE FACTS DO NOT STAND UP TO SCRUTINY.

So what you are really feeling is the residual guilt and self-doubt that the cult conditioning leaves behind. You can trust the facts and the witness of the thousands and thousands (millions?) of exmormons who bear witness all over the internet that these things are not true. That Joseph Smith is a pedophile, adulterer, a con man and a fraud. That membership in his church is actually membership in a huge and heartless money-sucking, human-hating corporation that sucks people dry and throws them away...

I could go on with my untestimony, but let me just say this: If there is a Jesus Christ and he returns, the GA's will fry for attaching his name to this abomination of a church. Ever notice how angry Jesus was that the priests wouldn't allow the lepers to go to the temple? How do you think he would view the LDS treatment of the gays? women? non-tithe payers, apostates?

Anagrammy

Not in 35 years

I used to, but the more I studied Mormonism (all sides- critical and apolgetic/faithpromoting), the more it became obvious it was a man made religion. I was very worried too about whether the church "might still be true." So I had to make darn sure it wasn't. Eventually I got to the point where I realized there's no way it is, and even if it was, then God obviously knows that he made it impossible for me to believe in it anyway(and wouldn't hold me accountable for not following it).

Let us know if you need any good books or websites to continue you're research :)

In the beginning . . . yes.

But after 5 years now, no not so much.

;o)

if it was really true and I got to heavenI would flip off God and tell him he was an asshole.

No. For the very reason G-d would not give us brains to pretend our entire lives we don't have them.

And for the very reason that the whole edifice is a monstrosity created by the first "Prophet" so he could covet other mens' wives.

Just because ancestors trekked across a land does not make the original claims any more true or valid.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 11/13/2010 07:13PM by martinf.

"Just because ancestors trekked across a land does not make the original claims any more true or valid."

That's essentially what my utah BIC TBM friend said to me one day (but you can see the doubts even in him underneath the surface).

"I could not face my ancestors and tell them I thought the BOM was false"

"The BOM is true because it has led to this wonderful church and millions believe in it"

Both lines of reasoning (or non reasoning) can be used to justify Catholicism, Judaism, and Islam (especially the latter).

I feel sorry for my friend because he is married to a hard core TBM wife. Another reason he can't let go.

The omniscient never changing god has created a belief system in Mormonism that contradicts itself on so many levels. It is impossible for it to be the result of an omniscient let alone never changing god.

For example, god would have needed to flip from no polygamy (by commandment) in the Book of Mormon to polygamy essential for salvation in the Doctrine and Covenants.