on top of that they mis-lead me concerning the history, drained my parents of what little money they had, took 2 entire years from me during the prime of my life, put my life in danger on the 'mission' and continue to do the same to my family and countless other un-suspecting emotionally vulnerable/naive/young people.

This really pisses me off. I've seen many on this board say the best revenge is living a good life. I'm really not so sure about that. I'm starting to think that the best revenge is...well revenge. I'm not advocating violence or destruction of property or anything like that, but I think I have been much too silent as an exmo with what I know. Is it even ethical to stand by and do/say nothing as the church repeats its pattern of abuse on the next generation?

I have ideas floating around in my head on how to de-program on a large scale...just not sure if I want to proceed. Has anyone here done anything more pro-active in speaking out against the church other than in private with family and close friends? What resulted?

If they can succeed in indoctrinating and deceiving on a large scale, then why would it not be possible to do the same in reverse?

While some would not leave the church no matter what....a small spiritual guerilla campaign here and there could prevent a lot of needless suffering. It's not that I want the church to just self-destruct, but there are so many TBMs completely trapped in it and they do not how to get out. I'm not talking about the faker mormons or the hypocritical mormons. I'm talking about your average grunt mormon that never turns down a calling, faithfully pays tithing, does everything they are asked of, and are suffering. They are being exploited.

that a full frontal assault on someone's beliefs usually makes them feel MORE dedicated to it. Think of the LDS mindset . . . that any opposition is from Satan, or it's persecution (and therefore evidence that the church is actually true), or that it's just a bunch of anti-mormon lies (and YOU are the anti-mormon).

If you attack, what's most likely to happen is that you will lose relationships, and they will end up stronger in their faith.

You might want to read up on getting people out of cults. Steven Hassan has a great website called freedomofmind.com and he has a couple of good books. He also has a 45-minute video on the web about mini-interventions, small things you can do or say that might help a cult member to think outside the box for a minute.

But I am kind of interested in what your ideas are for helping get people out. I'm not an exmo missionary type, but I would like to see people who are being hurt my moism break free from it.

It's toxic to family and individual emotional wellbeing and is racist, sexist, and homophobic.

Unfortunately, we can only help those who want to be helped. This would include potential converts, those questioning the faith, and those who have seen the light.

I don't think we can do much for those who are still deeply entrenched until they show signs they're willing to listen.

I agree! Maybe there isn't too much I can do, but I'm constantly do something whenever a opportunity presents it self. A few exemples: When our newspaper responded to the morg PR concerning "September Dawn", calling it anti, I called the editor and reponded with a letter online and one written via snail mail with links to MMM and poygamy, quoting mormon sites. Both appeared. When the DVD disappeared from our Library, I donated 2 more and told them about members and mishies swapping earlyer BOM editions (light and delightsome) with 'whitewashed' :) versions. I showed them the origional and left a few of those, highlighting that and 'polygamy is an amomination' verses. I buy up those versions and re-donate hem to 2nd-hand bookstores etc.

There are numerous blogs/comment sections about polygamy and I miss no opportinity. I use twitter and FB. I'm always polite tho'. I talked to mishies on the street and at home.
Is it revenge? At first, when I was SO angry, but it was my fault to have believed the lies. Now I just hope a prospective investigator gets the info before being 'locked' into the brainwash.

Agree with above comments.

You only have authority over your OWN life; when you start messing with other people's lives and belief systems, you are just setting yourself up for frustration.

It is virtually impossible to use reason and facts on a person who has an emotional commitment to some system.

Be a happy, nice person who behaves honorably without having to go to church every Sunday, and you won't have to say a word to challenge their belief system.

Be assured that time, truth and history are working against them.

There will always be emotionally needy people who need the weirdness to feel "special" but few people who are lured into the cult remain active for long, and most of the young people born into Mormon families leave once they are out on their own.

Laugh every time you see an ad for TSCC - Monson & Company are paying a pretty penny to try and sell their stupid-ass "product" - it is a sign of how they are desperate they are to attract converts (spending money on professional marketing instead of slave labor by members).

So do you think that a craze for Mormon and Mormon-related topics will soon be sweeping the nation??

Only if Mittens tries to move into the WH or "Sister-Wives" suddenly gets more interesting.

Church members have the luxury of dismissing their critics by assigning them to Satan. This only happens in religion. Can you imagine if people in business or politics never listened to their critics? Those people don't win elections or succeed in business. They have to listen, because critics normally bring some level of truth to the discussion, even when exaggerated. But in religion, we can say, "It's Satan at work," and dismiss every word ... very convenient.

I think the best way we can do it is everyone who's been abused and church doctorine has been used to justify it or church culture has been used in some way for it should go public all at once. How could they do anything about it when theres so many of us.

What you fail to realize is that many, many people are here reading this bulletin board every single day, even if many of them do not post. You are doing more than you realize. If even one of these people becomes a moving force against the morg in social settings, then tentacles will start to spread everywhere. I've already had many good conversations with two open-minded Mormons about the morg at work, and although they seem content in the faith, they listen to me rant and don't care. They are good people, but you never know what effect you have on people until further down the road and their effect on even further people. Kinda sounds like the gospel being explained to depressed missionaries who only hope to convert one or even none but still influence others to join later down the line.
Have hope, brethren!

I agree that it is next to impossible to change someone's emotional mind with rational facts.

However, I think a media story about the nature of private interviews with minors would be an eye-opener to the rest of the public and might bring more scrutiny to the ridiculous doctrines.

While there are a gazillion doctrinal points one could make that show rational people the truth, the interviews would be a place where most thinking people would see the "cultish" activity. Think of trying to knock down a huge building vs chipping away at a vulnerable spot in the structure.

Mormons (and others of their ilk) are taught that the the world thinks highly of them and respects them. When I tell people I used to be mormon, but gave it up, NOBODY says, "oh, that's too bad!" We all have a good laugh about it making fun of it all and speaking evil of the Lord's annointed.

I lost two years of my life fullfilling the process of annoying thousands of people to attempt to create more mormons. Considering its goofy doctrine and ugly history, that was no easy task. However, it's super much more easy to be the anti-mormon missionary. Nope, not because of Satan, but because TSCC isn't what it claims to be. I've had lots more success deconverting than I ever did converting.....

I couldn't find the online video...

Google: steve hassan freedom of mind.
That will take you to his website.
Then click on home.
There will be a list of videos.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 11/13/2010 01:09PM by Twinker.

I too sometimes want to be more aggressive. One thought that has been going throug my head is the idea of restitution. I spent two years full-time and countless weekends building up the kingdome. I wonder if I owe at least that much to correct my errors.

I think what we're talking about is a de-conversion playbook. What does or should it look like? There are probably several different plays depending on where the person you are talking to is at. Hardcore TBM's are long-term projects but what can we do about the "golden questioners", new converts, investigators, teens, college students, etc. Also, is it at some point more compassionate to let the elderly just continue with their beliefs.

Revenge is actually being there for younger family members and for friends who doubt and want someone to listen to their doubts. When people are ready they will see that you are an apostate living a fullfilling life, and they will share their doubts with you. If this leads to a de-conversion than you have "won" some revenge.

And sharing your experiences with nonmembers certainly spreads tentacles that we can't fully imagine-- as was mentioned above.
I share my stories about bishop's interviews with anyone who wants the "dirt."
Normal people are horrified with this practice, and won't even dream of being taught by missionaries.

I still have that "little factory" booklet by Packer, and I've shared it with co-workers.

It doesn't take much for people to be convinced how wierd mormonism is.

great thread! bumping..

Hit them with their own scam.
They say it is impossible to counter a fervid tesstimony,
Therefore "testify" that you know the LDS is false.
By their own standards they have no way to go

This board has been online since '97 and gets 10's of 1,000's of hits per day and approx. 1,000 posts (ref. http://www.exmormon.org/bboards.htm). Eric K or Susan I/S could provide you with site visitor traffic numbers; they exceeded 250,000 in April, I believe.

PostMormon.org is a more recent site (since '07). Here's what owner Jeff Ricks recently posted: "Last month [October 2010] our website received 10.8 million hits, which surpasses the previous all time record of 10.5 million hits in April of this year. It seems that LDS Conference months are when we rack up highest number of hits throughout the year. Thank you to all of you for your continued participation in this community! We all are providing a very good service to our fellow Mormon Church 'graduates.'" (ref. http://www.postmormon.org/exp_e/index.php/discussions/viewthread/24972/). That's nearly 350,000 people visiting the site PER DAY!

Recently, on this board, someone posted what they said were resignation numbers for 1995 to 2002, which are not unreasonable, given the increase in 'anti-Mormon' (i.e., truth about the LDS fraud) websites such as this one:

1995 35,420
1996 50,177
1997 55,200
1998 78,750
1999 81,200
2000 87,500
2001 101,454
2002 105,763

Based on an average annual increase in resignations of 10K, here are approx. no.'s for 2003 to 2010:

2003 116,000
2004 126,000
2005 136,000
2006 146,000
2007 156,000
2008 166,000
2009 176,000
2010 186,000

In May 2006, disfellowshipped LDS author (for writing "An Insider's View of Mormon Origins") and retired CES Director Grant Palmer said the no. of church staff handling resignation 'requests' (instructions) had been increased five-fold to handle the flood of people resigning from the Morg (the interview audio is online at http://mormonstories.org/?p=92 - see episode 4).

More than 300,000 people have read the online info. of how cultic Mormonism affects people psychologically - the LDS mind-f*ck - and their self-esteem, and what they can do to liberate themselves: http://members.shaw.ca/blair_watson/

The related presentation (from the 2006 Ex-Mormon Conference) is online at http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZYOmvTuq5CA&feature=related

Every time there's a news story related to TSCC or the Mormonism-rooted FLDS cult or Warren Jeffs (FLDS 'prophet') on CNN and many other news websites, ex-Mormons are posting comments about cultic Mormonism, what a liar and abuser of females JS was, and much more.

After so much effort, the only people who don't know that Mormonism is cultic and believe TSCC's white-wash about JS, early church history, etc. are 'brainwashed' Latter-day Saints. No one can make them want to wake up and learn the truth. They have to reach a point psychologically where they're willing to do so. Thankfully, the Morg is so boring and dysfunctional that at least for people in the 40's and younger - savvy with the Internet, typically - as well as some in their 50's and older, TSCC pushes them out, effectively.

The LDS Church will continue to shoot itself in the feet - as it's done in the past with Prop 8, its multi-billion-dollar Great & Spacious Mall-and-Condos project in SLC, insisting that members clean - for free - chapels and other church buildings, etc. Looking ahead, as people in their 50's and older age and die, the Morg will dwindle in size at an accelerated rate, I predict. It's already happening.

If you know questioning/doubting Latter-day Saints, you can 'nudge' them along with the following info. from a post I did earlier this year:

"It is error only, and not truth, that shrinks from inquiry." -- Thomas Paine, one of the Founding Fathers of the United States of America, intellectual, philosopher, and writer.

One of the best ways of cracking open Mormons' 'faith' is to reveal to them the fact that Joseph Smith (JS) was a liar, manipulator, adulterer and pedophile.

The LDS Church's section summary for D&C 132, the 'revelation' on polygamy written (down) by JS just over 166 years ago, says:

"Revelation given through Joseph Smith the Prophet, at Nauvoo, Illinois, recorded July 12, 1843, relating to the new and everlasting covenant, including the eternity of the marriage covenant, as also plurality of wives. HC 5: 501–507. Although the revelation was recorded in 1843, it is evident from the historical records that the doctrines and principles involved in this revelation had been known by the Prophet since 1831."

(ref. http://scriptures.lds.org/en/dc/132)

According to LDS scripture, two key polygamy "principles" were:

i. A Mormon priesthood holder could desire and marry only virgins who were "vowed to no other man" (i.e., not betrothed to a fiancée, or married).
ii. The first wife (Emma, in JS' case) had to give her consent to the plural marriage.

The scripture in question was D&C 132:61:

"And again, as pertaining to the law of the priesthood—if any man espouse a virgin, and desire to espouse another, and the first give her consent, and if he espouse the second, and they are virgins, and have vowed to no other man, then is he justified; he cannot commit adultery for they are given unto him; for he cannot commit adultery with that that belongeth unto him and to no one else."

(ref. http://scriptures.lds.org/en/dc/132/61#61)

In the case of 11 women that 'prophet' and Mormon Church president Joseph Smith made his plural wives, they were already vowed to their husband, and as married women, certainly not virgins (ref. http://www.wivesofjosephsmith.org/).

"...for he cannot commit adultery with that that belongeth unto him and to no one else." The 11 women belonged to their husband.

JS committed adultery at least 11 times (12, actually, when you include his extra-marital affair with teenager Fanny Alger, servant girl in the Smith home; ref. http://www.wivesofjosephsmith.org/02-FannyAlger.htm).

The LDS Church has a partial list of the married women, single women, and teenage girls that JS made his plural wives on the church's genealogy website at http://www.familysearch.org/eng/default.asp

Enter Smith's first and last name, birth year (1805) and birth place (Vermont, United States). Click on Search. Then click on the underlined Joseph Smith (Ancestral File 1). Scroll down to see the partial list of his plural wives. Note when he (at age 37) married Helen Mar Kimball (May 1843) and her age by clicking on her name (she was just 14).

JS' marriage to Fanny Alger can be viewed on the church's FamilySearch.org website by entering her first and last name, marriage year to JS (1835) and selecting "United States" and "Ohio" from the drop-down menus, and clicking on Search, then continuing from there.

Why did Joseph Smith make married women his plural wives - committing adultery in the process - when the Lord forbade it, and did so not just once or twice, but 11 times? Why wasn't he excommunicated for adultery?

The Mormon Church and LDS 'prophets' have taught for generations that adultery is a 'sin' next to murder and any church member who has committed adultery does not have the Holy Ghost with him/her and cannot receive revelation from God.

JS disobeyed the 'revealed' word of God (directly to him, no less) every time he desired, pursued and married a married Mormon woman. In the case of at least one of them, Sylvia Lyon (married to Windsor Lyon), JS fathered her daughter:

“On January 27, 1844 her [Sylvia’s] only surviving child, Philofreen, also died. At this time, Sylvia was eight months pregnant with her fourth child, Josephine Rosetta Lyon. Josephine later wrote, “Just prior to my mothers death in 1882 she called me to her bedside and told me that her days were numbered and before she passed away from mortality she desired to tell me something which she had kept as an entire secret from me and from all others but which she now desired to communicate to me. She then told me that I was the daughter of the Prophet Joseph Smith”. (ref. http://www.wivesofjosephsmith.org/08-SylviaSessionsLyon.htm)

In May 1843, JS made a 14-year-old, two 17-year-olds and a 19-year-old his plural wives. The 14-year-old, Helen Mar Kimball, was his youngest-yet plural wife, as the genealogy data on the list of JS' plural wives on FamilySearch.org shows.

One wonders why, of all the single women in Nauvoo who were in their 20s and 30s, JS pursued and married teenage girls young enough to be his daughters and other men's wives.

On July 12, 1843, just two months after JS married the teenage girls mentioned above, he wrote down a 'divine' death threat ("threat of destruction") directed at his first and only legal wife, Emma (who was Relief Society president) if she didn't accept his plural wives, remain with him, "cleave unto" him, and accept polygamy. D&C 132:52 and 54:

52 And let mine handmaid, Emma Smith, receive all those [plural wives] that have been given unto my servant Joseph, and who are virtuous and pure [virgins] before me; and those who are not pure, and have said they were pure, shall be destroyed, saith the Lord God.

54 And I command mine handmaid, Emma Smith, to abide and cleave unto my servant Joseph, and to none else. But if she will not abide this commandment she shall be destroyed, saith the Lord; for I am the Lord thy God, and will destroy her if she abide not in my law [polygamy].

(ref. http://scriptures.lds.org/en/dc/132/52#54)

How extraordinarily convenient for JS that the Lord was willing to turn a blind eye to his adultery (no rebuke, no revelation that he should be excommunicated), and back him up in his practice of polygamy by threatening to kill (destroy) Emma if she didn't get on JS' polygamy 'wagon' pronto!

According to the 'revelation' on polygamy that JS wrote down on July 12, 1843, the reason for plural marriage was to get virgins pregnant so that they would bear children, thereby increasing God’s glory:

“But if one or either of the ten virgins, after she is espoused, shall be with another man, she has committed adultery, and shall be destroyed; for they are given unto him to multiply and replenish the earth, according to my commandment, and to fulfil the promise which was given by my Father before the foundation of the world, and for their exaltation in the eternal worlds, that they may bear the souls of men; for herein is the work of my Father continued, that he may be glorified.”

(ref. http://scriptures.lds.org/en/dc/132/63#63)

In JS' day, the only way for Mormon women and teenage girls to "bear the souls of men" was to become pregnant through sexual intercourse (human artificial insemination wasn't developed until the 1940s).

Gaining access to females who could "multiply and replenish the earth" was important to JS. In the case of 16-year-old Lucy Walker, whose mother died after the Walker family converted to Mormonism and moved to Nauvoo in the spring of 1841, he separated the teenage girl from her father (by sending him away on a 2-year mission to the Eastern United States) and her surviving siblings (her sister, Lydia, had died only months before of “brain fever”) by placing her siblings with families in Nauvoo and ‘inviting’ the unsuspecting girl to live in the home of ‘the Prophet’ (himself).

“While living in the Smith home, Lucy remembers: “In the year 1842 President Joseph Smith sought an interview with me, and said, ‘I have a message for you, I have been commanded of God to take another wife, and you are the woman.’ My astonishment knew no bounds. This announcement was indeed a thunderbolt to me...He asked me if I believed him to be a Prophet of God. ‘Most assuredly I do I replied.’...He fully Explained to me the principle of plural or celestial marriage. Said this principle was again to be restored for the benefit of the human family. That it would prove an everlasting blessing to my father’s house.”

“What do you have to Say?” Joseph asked. “Nothing” Lucy replied, “How could I speak, or what would I say?” Joseph encouraged her to pray: “tempted and tortured beyond endureance until life was not desirable. Oh that the grave would kindly receive me that I might find rest on the bosom of my dear mother...Why – Why Should I be chosen from among thy daughters, Father I am only a child in years and experience. No mother to council; no father near to tell me what to do, in this trying hour. Oh let this bitter cup pass. And thus I prayed in the agony of my soul.”

Joseph told Lucy that the marriage would have to be secret, but that he would acknowledge her as his wife, “beyond the Rocky Mountains”. He then gave Lucy an ultimatum, “It is a command of God to you. I will give you untill to-morrow to decide this matter. If you reject this message the gate will be closed forever against you.”

“Lucy married Joseph on May 1, 1843. At the time, Emma was in St. Louis buying supplies for the Nauvoo hotel. Lucy remembers, “Emma Smith was not present and she did not consent to the marriage; she did not know anything about it at all.”’ (ref. http://www.wivesofjosephsmith.org/23-LucyWalker.htm)

Not informing Emma of his latest plural marriage and first obtaining Emma’s consent was a violation of the Lord’s commandment to JS: “…if any man espouse a virgin, and desire to espouse another, and the first give her consent...for he cannot commit adultery with that that belongeth unto him and to no one else.”

(ref. http://scriptures.lds.org/en/dc/132/61#61).

Secretly marrying Lucy Walker was not the first time that JS did not obtain Emma’s consent (she discovered her husband and teenage servant girl Fanny Alger having sex in the barn and complained to Mormon Apostle Oliver Cowdery, Joseph’s second cousin and BoM scribe, about her husband’s extra-marital affair; Fanny was sent away by Emma because the teenage girl was “was unable to conceal the consequences of her celestial relation with the prophet”, in other words, Fanny’s swelling womb; ref. http://www.wivesofjosephsmith.org/02-FannyAlger.htm).

2. In the BoM, in Jacob 2:24, it says:

"Behold, David and Solomon truly had many wives and concubines, which thing was abominable before me, saith the Lord."
(ref. http://scriptures.lds.org/en/jacob/2/24#24)

However, in the 'revelation' on polygamy that Joseph Smith wrote down on July 12, 1843, it says (in verse 1):

"Verily, thus saith the Lord unto you my servant Joseph, that inasmuch as you have inquired of my hand to know and understand wherein I, the Lord, justified my servants Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob, as also Moses, David and Solomon, my servants, as touching the principle and doctrine of their having many wives and concubines"
(ref. http://scriptures.lds.org/en/dc/132)

How is it that in the BoM, the Lord, who according to scripture is the same yesterday, today and tomorrow, condemned as "abominable" the practice of David and Solomon of having wives and concubines, but then contradicted himself in the 'revelation' on polygamy to JS by saying he "justified" (i.e., approved of) the practice?

Answer: When JS WROTE the BoM prior to its publication in 1830, he had only one wife: Emma. But in July 1843, when he wrote down the 'revelation' on polygamy that supposedly came from 'the Lord' (into his mind), he had several plural wives (ref. http://www.wivesofjosephsmith.org/). In July 1843, Joseph Smith had forgotten what he wrote about David and Solomon and their practice of having wives and concubines 13+ years earlier.

3. Quote in LDS Apostle Russell Nelson's article, "A Treasured Testament", in the July 1993 Ensign (the article is online at www.lds.org; use the Search function to find it):

"Joseph Smith would put the seer stone into a hat, and put his face in the hat, drawing it closely around his face to exclude the light; and in the darkness the spiritual light would shine. A piece of something resembling parchment would appear, and on that appeared the writing. One character at a time would appear, and under it was the interpretation in English. Brother Joseph would read off the English to Oliver Cowdery, who was his principal scribe, and when it was written down and repeated to Brother Joseph to see if it was correct, then it would disappear, and another character with the interpretation would appear. Thus the Book of Mormon was translated by the gift and power of God, and not by any power of man."

Why hasn't the LDS Church taught members and potential converts about Smith's 'magical'-rock-and-hat BoM 'translation' technique? The answer is obvious: Who would remain a member and who would join if they knew the truth?!

Why were the gold plates even needed, since Joseph Smith's 'peep' stone clearly did the job as far as 'translating' the BoM is concerned?! The huge problem is that it says in the BoM (and LDS 'prophets' have taught for generations) that 'the Lord' commanded BoM 'prophets' to keep an account of what was going on during their lives as well as teachings and doctrines.

But according to the quote in Nelson's article, there was no gold plate in JS' hat, only the 'magical' rock ('seer' stone) that mysteriously emitted "something resembling parchment" upon which one character at a time would appear. There are 1,150,219 characters in the BoM, which means that it took JS nearly a year (at eight hours per day) of putting his face in his hat and calling out the characters to his scribe to 'translate' the BoM. Why don't church pictures show him doing so?

4. A Seer Stone and a Hat - "Translating" the Book of Mormon: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wPnu0bx3oWg

5. For generations, a fundamental Book of Mormon (BoM) 'truth' was the following: "Wherefore, it is an abridgment of the Record of the People of Nephi; and also of the Lamanites; written to the Lamanites, which are a remnant of the House of Israel;" (ref. http://www.inephi.com/1.htm).

However, in light of DNA evidence of the past 20 years that has consistently shown that the ancestors of Native Americans came from northeast Asia and not from ancient Israel/Judea, as described in the BoM, the LDS Church has officially abandoned its 'truth' - taught to millions of church members and potential converts since JS' day - that American Indians are Jewish in origin (via Laman and Lemuel, who came from Jerusalem with Lehi, Sariah, Laman, Lemuel, and other Jewish family members).

Here is what the Introduction of 19th- to 20th-century editions of the BoM, including the 1981 edition that many Latter-day Saints living today used in church and at home, said (emphasis in capital letters is mine):

"The Book of Mormon is a volume of holy scripture comparable to the Bible. It is a record of God’s dealings with the ancient inhabitants of the Americas and contains, as does the Bible, the fulness of the everlasting gospel.

The book was written by many ancient prophets by the spirit of prophecy and revelation. Their words, written on gold plates, were quoted and abridged by a prophet-historian named Mormon. The record gives an account of two great civilizations. One came from Jerusalem in 600 B.C., and afterward separated into two nations, known as the Nephites and the Lamanites. The other came much earlier when the Lord confounded the tongues at the Tower of Babel. This group is known as the Jaredites. After thousands of years, all were destroyed except the Lamanites, and they are the PRINCIPAL ancestors of the American Indians."

Here is what JS wrote in March 1842 in a letter to John Wentworth, editor and proprietor of the Chicago Democrat newspaper:

"In this important and interesting book the history of ancient America is unfolded, from its first settlement by a colony that came from the Tower of Babel at the confusion of languages to the beginning of the fifth century of the Christian era. We are informed by these records that America in ancient times has been inhabited by two distinct races of people. The first were called Jaredites and came directly from the Tower of Babel. The second race came directly from the city of Jerusalem about six hundred years before Christ. They were principally Israelites of the descendants of Joseph. The Jaredites were destroyed about the time that the Israelites came from Jerusalem, who succeeded them in the inheritance of the country. The principal nation of the second race fell in battle towards the close of the fourth century. The remnant are the Indians that now inhabit this country."

(ref. http://www.lds.org/ldsorg/v/index.jsp?hideNav=1&locale=0&sourceId=c26876e6ffe0c010VgnVCM1000004d82620a____&vgnextoid=2354fccf2b7db010VgnVCM1000004d82620aRCRD)

Here is what the LDS Church is now saying (emphasis in capital letters is mine):

"The Book of Mormon is a volume of holy scripture comparable to the Bible. It is a record of God’s dealings with the ancient inhabitants of the Americas and contains, as does the Bible, the fulness of the everlasting gospel.

The book was written by many ancient prophets by the spirit of prophecy and revelation. Their words, written on gold plates, were quoted and abridged by a prophet-historian named Mormon. The record gives an account of two great civilizations. One came from Jerusalem in 600 B.C., and afterward separated into two nations, known as the Nephites and the Lamanites. The other came much earlier when the Lord confounded the tongues at the Tower of Babel. This group is known as the Jaredites. After thousands of years, all were destroyed except the Lamanites, and they are AMONG the ancestors of the American Indians."

(ref. http://scriptures.lds.org/en/bm/introduction)

"...among the ancestors of the American Indians" clearly implies that there were other ancient people(s) who were also the ancestors of Native Americans, which is, of course, exactly what scientists concluded (no evidence exists to support the Mormon idea of Jewish ancestry of American Indians).

The HUGE problem for the LDS Church is that for the BoM to be true, the ancestors of Native Americans have to be Jewish/come from ancient Israel/Jerusaleum, as described in the BoM."

The chief problem with Mormonism is that it doesn't stand up to scrutiny. Science has proven that the 'keystone' of the LDS religion, the Book of Mormon, is a work of fiction (see the links below for details). Mormonism founder Joseph Smith, Jr. repeatedly failed to relate and even write a reasonably consistent version of his so-called 'First Vision' experience (see the link below). JS kept getting his age, the place, what he saw, and other major elements of the 'First Vision' wrong. Rational people don’t believe a ‘witness’ who tells versions of their ‘true’ story that conflict with versions previously told by the individual. People who won’t use their critical thinking and scrutinize what they’ve been told often do believe ‘charismatic’ types.

According to LDS Church presidents Ezra Benson and Gordon Hinckley in Gen. Conf. talks in Oct. 1986 and Oct. 2002 (online at www.lds.org), Mormonism stands or falls on the BoM being true (historically and in all other respects) and the First Vision having taken place (as per the official church version that has been taught to millions of members and potential converts). The facts are clear: Mormonism falls (the websites linked below provide many of these facts).

All religions, including Mo-ism, are the product of people's imagination (Joseph Smith, in the case of the Mormon religion, with 'spiritual' ideas from other Mormon 'prophets' being layered on during the past 7-8 generations since 1830).

You're not obliged to mentally regurgitate other people's 'spiritual' ideas, what they believe and feel is 'true', and demonstrable nonsense (there's lots of it in cultic Mormonism!).

You have the right to ALWAYS think for yourself and scrutinize what other people, including adult Mormons, have told you is 'true', 'right', 'the will of God', etc. You also have the right to reject all beliefs - religious or otherwise - that are not supported by the facts.

Latter-day Saints fail to understand that truth is independent of what the LDS Church says and what Mormons believe is 'true' when their 'truths' are not supported by solid evidence. Very importantly, their emotions - and emotion-based beliefs - are not an INFALLIBLE guide to the truth.

Here are very good resources that you can study to educate yourself about Mormonism and its history:

Early Mormonism and the Magic World View (by former BYU history professor Dr. D. Michael Quinn): http://www.amazon.com/Early-Mormonism-Magic-World-View/dp/1560850892

The Changing World of Mormonism: http://www.utlm.org/navonlinebooks.htm

To Those Who Are Investigating Mormonism: http://packham.n4m.org/tract.htm

PBS FRONTLINE + American Experience: "The Mormons" (4-hour documentary film aired on PBS in '07 that includes excerpts from interviews with President Gordon Hinckley, Mormon Apostles Boyd Packer and Jeffrey Holland and member of the First Quorum of the Seventy and church historian Marlin Jensen): http://www.pbs.org/mormons/

101 Doubts about Mormonism: http://packham.n4m.org/101.htm

Contradictions in Mormonism: http://packham.n4m.org/contra.htm

Rethinking Mormonism: http://www.i4m.com/think/

Joseph Smith's Changing First Vision Accounts: http://www.irr.org/mit/first-vision/fvision-accounts.html

Losing a Lost Tribe: Native Americans, DNA, and the Mormon Church (by genetic researcher Dr. Simon Southerton, a former LDS bishop): http://www.amazon.com/Losing-Lost-Tribe-Native-Americans/dp/1560851813

"DNA vs. The Book of Mormon" (ref. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=svfxSscxh8o)

Book of Mormon Tories (plagarisms in the BoM involving two American history books, one published in 1789 and the other in 1805, that were available to Joseph Smith): http://www.postmormon.org/exp_e/index.php/magazine/pmm_article_full_text/211

The Lost Book of Abraham (more proof that Joseph Smith lied about his 'translation' ability): http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hcyzkd_m6KE

The 'motherlode' of historical info. about Mormonism (including many quoted official church sources, and their references): http://www.utlm.org/navtopicalindex.htm

Digital photograph of the title page of the 1830 edition of the Book of Mormon that shows that Joseph Smith was the author and proprietor (he claimed he was the 'translator' of the ancient gold plates): http://www.inephi.com/1.htm

The Untold Story of the Death of Joseph Smith: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EvSo0ate4tM&feature=related

‘Faith-disrupting’ teachings and statements of Mormon ‘prophets’ (after Joseph Smith): http://mormonthink.com/prophetsweb.htm#apostleadmits

How Mormonism 'programs' people and affects their self-esteem: http://members.shaw.ca/blair_watson/

40 fears created by LDS 'programming': http://members.shaw.ca/blair_watson/fears.htm

I have to remind myself that Mormonism is a MASSIVE FAILURE. In 180 years they have not even been able to convert 1% of the earth's population. I think the total worldwide membership is something like 0.17% or less.

They have spent millions and millions, sent out a top flight sales force to sell Mormonism (compared to other churches) and what is the result?

13 million out of a nearly 8 billion population. And how many of the glorious 13 million are active?

Mormonism is laughed at by almost the entire world! Gold plates, peep stones, holy underwear, etc. are such a joke!

I think the best revenge is to let the senile old fools who run this mess continue to lie to the masses about what a success their "religion" is while they plow Joe's con game into the ground.

I do understand the need to get back at them. I still say that some sort of documentary on how they treat non-Mormons when it comes to temple weedings would really be a good shot to the groin.

It really isn't about convincing members that their church is not 'true'. It is about like hassan's book is titled - 'empowering people to think for themselves'. Once people give themselves permission to question, they can act in a way that is beneficial to themselves instead of sacrificing for the false church. I think it is really the needless sacrifices of members who feel like they have no other choice is the source of a lot of pain in the church.

If I could reform the church into something less harmful to members, I would first change 3 main aspects of the church:

1) Testimony meetings.
When I see people crying while bearing their testimonies, I believe that the feelings are genuine, but the words are not. In other words, they cry because they feel trapped by their own 'knowledge'. They are not tears of joy because they are so happy that they know the truth. Take for example your average crying 19 year old about to go on a mission. He or she may cry while saying that they know the church is true, but what is really going on is that the tears come from a complete lack of desire to leave their family, friends, girlfriend or boyfriend for 2 years. But he feels he has no choice. They are saying what is socially acceptable in the lds context, while simultaneously convincing people in the audience that their words are sincere. The words are not sincere, but the feelings are. These testimony meetings really do a number on the youth. Google Asch conformity test. In the mind of a youth, they see countless people whom they respect, testify to this 'truth'. When faced with overwhelming opposition, eventually they too see the 'truth'. They begin to conform by drinking the kool-aid.
2) Mandatory missions.
In my experience, by far the most cult-like aspect of the church is the mission. You can check almost all of the boxes on a cult checklist when coming at it from a mission standpoint. It is marketed as a wonderful experience. Anyone who has been on a mission knows that it is not.
3) Temple oaths.
The temple experience takes the youth of the church, who have been indoctrinated to believe that this is sacred space, strips them down naked, violates personal boundaries, then binds them by oath and covenant to god for things they had no idea about before hand. Nobody gets told before they go to the temple that they are about to agree to give everything and I mean EVERYTHING to the church. 'Even their own lives if necessary', I believe is the actual wording. But once again, with conformity factors and fear at play, they go through with it. Now, once bound by their promises to God, they feel they can never say no to the church. After all, they promised god in the most sacred place imaginable.

I agree with what people have already said on here that confronting members with facts and logic will do nothing. A full on frontal assault on the belief system will only trigger defense mechanisms and they will dig their heels in. We have to flank them. They have been convinced that something is true on an emotional level. I believe they can be forced to question that truth if also done on an emotional level. Fight fire with fire.

In regards to testimony meeting, if just one person got up once a month and gave their testimony of how miserable they were as a faithful member, without attacking doctrine or leaders, the effect would be substantial. It would validate the feelings that the members themselves have and are afraid to express. It would have the additional benefit of breaking up the conformity aspect of the meeting. As a youth in the church, I did not hear one person question the church. Had I seen someone else, with all the right credentials question the church, I think I would have given myself permission to question myself.

Such a testimony would go something like this:
Hello brothers and sisters, I was raised in the church, [state all the church experience, education, RM, validate that you know what you are talking about] when I was 19, I was promised that a mission would be the best 2 years of my life. This was not the case. Then go on to explain, on an emotional level, why the mission experience was not a happy experience. How the leaders are verbally abusive. How you get blamed for people not getting baptized. etc. etc.

No need to attack authenticity of the BoM. No need to bring up Joe the con man. But simply present an opposing viewpoint. One that the youth are not getting. If exmos and doubting members did this on a consistent basis, I believe it would be a serious blow to the church. The open-mic nature of the F&T meeting allows this. The church is vulnerable because of this meeting. What the church most desperately needs are the qualified dis-believers to stand up and express their genuine emotions and testimonies of complete let-down and failure of the church. It would validate members feelings, let them know that they are not alone, and that there is no need to keep up the facade of happiness. It would help the youth see a different perspective. It would be great if this were such a problem that eventually the church discontinued this insane brain-washing ritual.

The church has already in some ways countered this viewpoint. If someone claims that they were not happy in the church, it's obvious that they were sinning in private. It would be important to stress in your testimony that you were a member in good standing for many years, followed all the church rules, did your very best, and still the lifestyle did not make you happy.

People don't care too much about truth, they care about being happy. Make them question their 'happiness', and they will eventually give themselves permission to question 'truth'. Again, no need to debate truth with logic and reason. Make an emotional argument based on personal experience, and it will resonate within them because your experiences are the same as theirs, except you are being honest about your feelings in public.

How I wish I would have gotten up in testimony meeting and said I did NOT KNOW the church was true.

I kept all the commandments, and read the B of M 14++ times and prayed and fasted about it, but I never got an answer. I could have said that in a faith-promoting way, because I framed it up in my mind as "I haven't gotten an answer YET, but I'll keep trying as long as necessary."

I think there are a LOT of people who never had a testimony out there. Maybe if they realized that they aren't the only ones it would help them start to ask "why"?

To do what the church should have done. Help nuture the human condition... What better way to say up yours to the church, by schooling it in this manner? And you have done more for humanity that Monson has ever done in his flappy ears.

I posted about this a week or so ago. It does seem to stay with you. But then everyone has something. The is the way it is in this world. You do pay a price in terms of family relationships. I had to go through allot because alcoholism and drug addiction, that was part of my price to pay in order to separate from the church.

I am mostly happy now and like my life.

I don't usually have opinions about what others should do, but getting out of the LDS church is a good thing to do. Go see a therapist if you need to and try not to rebel too much like I did.

by starting a newspaper column called "Understanding Religion" and comparing LDS beliefs with statements of faith and opinion from spokespersons of other faiths in Logan. THe LDS spokesman would only push the buttons and give canned replies, which sounded canned, whereas the ministers of other religions actually seized the opportunity to talk to the people about their beliefs.

Made TSCC absolutely furious- plus I'm female, which I'm sure made it even worse.

Interesting, the only other dickhead was the Catholic priest, who was extremely critical and suspicious of my motives and refused to contribute at all.

How sweeeeet it was.

I agree with imaworkinonit. I've tried to have logical discussions with TBM relatives, but it doesn't work once you hit that wall of programming. In addition, a look-see through the Mormon Letters section on this website showcases the groupthink ideals, where because they see other people writing in to defend their faith, it "boosts their testimony."

I'm still angry on some level with the people I grew up with. I've let go of my anger towards the actual church, but the individuals I had/have to deal with still irk me. Upon thinking back on it, I tend to get riled all over again. I have too much anger and I need to work on it.

I certainly agree with Anon, who said:
"What you fail to realize is that many, many people are here reading this bulletin board every single day, even if many of them do not post. You are doing more than you realize."