In another thread, poster "Nina" wrote:

"Steve Benson is obviously very anti-religion, but it must have taking extra strenght and guts to leave 'because and in spite' of his background.

"I'm exmormon and believe in Christ (the one who fulfilled the laws and ordinances according to him), but that is me.

"Remember what Gordon B. Hinkley said: 'Either it is all true or it is a fraud, there is no middle ground.' I happen to agree with that statement."

(Poster: Nina, "Cont: 'honest question to you all," Site: Recovery from Mormonism Bulletin Board, Date: 10 November 2010, 02:39PM)
_____


All or nothing? So be it.

By the way, I am more pro-intellect than I am "anti-religion," although religion is inherently anti-intellectual.

Ironically, one can employ Hinckley's statement (which you cite) against Judeo-Christianity itself.

You said (and I quote):

"Remember what Gordon B. Hinkley said: 'Either it is all true or it is a fraud, there is no middle ground.' I happen to agree with that statement."

Well, OK, then, for starters:

--The Biblical creation-of-the-Earth-in-six-days tale is false.

--The Biblical account of Adam being the first human being is factually incorrect.

--The Biblical Noachian Flood story is a myth.

--The Biblical Exodus under Moses narrative is made up.

--Contrary to claims in the New Testament, rotting corpses do not rise from the dead, loaves and fishes cannot be produced out of thin air and people cannot walk on water. (Human beings can, however, imaginatively concoct fabulous fables in their own heads insisting that such magical things really do happen).

Finally, Thomas Jefferson concluded that if Jesus thought he was divine or the son of God, Jesus was deluded by the cultural and religious Jewish mythologies of his day. The "Jeffersonian Bible," which Jefferson compiled, excised all references to Jesus as divine, since Jefferson rightly determined that such claims were preposterous.

Intellectually speaking, I simply cannot see how you can, with a straight face, claim that all of Judeo-Christianity is true. Evidence, combined with common sense, conclusively indicates that much of it is, well, simply baloney.

"Either it is all true or it is a fraud, there is no middle ground."

Under that uncompromising test (a test which you say you agree with), both Mormonism and Judeo-Christianity are frauds.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 11/12/2010 09:25PM by steve benson.

Gee, whiz Mr. Benson. Nice to have you back!

Well done, Steve. And did you notice that Nina used the word "ordinances?" That's a Mormon buzz word.

"Your halo slippin' down to choke you now"

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BVXTmav24Wk

The Noose

So glad to see you have overcome them.
Completely silent now.
With heaven's help.
You've cast your demons out.
And not to pull your halo down
around your neck and tug you off your cloud.
But I'm more than just a little curious
how you're plannin' to go about making your amends
to the dead.
To the dead.

Recall the deeds as if they're all
someone else's atrocious stories.
Now you stand reborn before us all.
So glad to see you well.

And not to pull your halo down
around your neck and tug you to the ground.
But I'm more than just a little curious
how you're plannin' to go about making your amends
to the dead.
To the dead.

With your halo slippin' down
Your halo slippin'
Your halo slippin' down
Your halo slippin' down

Your halo slippin' down
(But I'm more than just a little curious
how you're plannin' to go about making your amends)
[repeated]

Your halo slippin' down.
Your halo slippin' down to choke you now



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 11/12/2010 11:43PM by atheist&happy:-).

Isn't it wonderful?
Isn't it marvelous?

Gordon B. Hinckley is still dead...

I don't know if you got the email, but the "founding fathers" loved Jesus so much that he came down and handed them the constitution.
I'm pretty sure someone photographed it because I see the picture all over. So it must be true.

The Constitution that permitted slavery but counted slaves at 3/5's of a white person for electoral purposes but didn't permit women to vote?

That Constitution?

source: http://www.law.umkc.edu/faculty/projects/ftrials/conlaw/thirteenthamendment.html

"
Provisions in the Original Constitution

Article I, Section. 2 [Slaves count as 3/5 persons]

Representatives and direct Taxes shall be apportioned among the several States which may be included within this Union, according to their respective Numbers, which shall be determined by adding to the whole Number of free Persons, including those bound to Service for a Term of Years, and excluding Indians not taxed, three fifths of all other Persons [i.e., slaves].
"



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 11/13/2010 02:13PM by Nick Humphrey.

Jesus was totally cool with racism and sexism. Doesn't surprise me that his constitution would have it in there.

> "Remember what Gordon B. Hinkley said: 'Either it is all true or it is a fraud, there is no middle ground.' I happen to agree with that statement."

this is a classic example of false logic:
http://truthundertherazor.blogspot.com/2010/07/lds-church-by-prophet-gordon-hinckley.html

"
This is nothing more than a false dichotomy that performs the function of a debating trick, except he uses it on people who are willing to accept almost anything he says. How can anyone who has experienced the good side of Mormons conclude that Mormonism is 100% fraud?
...
Mormonism is a mixture of good and bad, truth and error. It is grey.
"



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 11/13/2010 07:18AM by Nick Humphrey.

Nick, I think you are missing the point of "it is one or the other".

Either the Book of Mormon is a factual account of people who really lived, or it is made up. It can't be anything else. It is a true or false question, not multiple choice. To prove that, give me one example of a third option to the above Book of Mormon dichotomy.

Now we all know the Book of Mormon is not factual, but that doesn't mean everything in the church is 100% bad. But I have been convinced after years of reading posts here that it is better off to get you and those you love out as quickly as possible.

WhatMeWorry Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Nick, I think you are missing the point of "it is
> one or the other".

that's exactly what it isnt. for one thing, the book of mormon contains scriptures copied directly out of the old and new testament. i know christianity is all bogus, but believing christians would not be able to say that the BOM is ALL false would they?

> Either the Book of Mormon is a factual account of
> people who really lived, or it is made up. It
> can't be anything else. It is a true or false
> question, not multiple choice. To prove that, give
> me one example of a third option to the above Book
> of Mormon dichotomy.

see above reply. fyi, hinckley's statement was concerning the whole of mormonism, not just the BOM (as also explained in my first post):
"
that Joseph went into the [Sacred] Grove; that he saw the Father and the Son; that he talked with them; that Moroni came; that the Book of Mormon was translated from the plates; that the priesthood was restored by those who held it anciently. That's our claim.
"
http://www.pbs.org/mormons/interviews/hinckley.html

> Now we all know the Book of Mormon is not factual,
> but that doesn't mean everything in the church is
> 100% bad. But I have been convinced after years of
> reading posts here that it is better off to get
> you and those you love out as quickly as possible.
i totally agree, i didnt mean to sound in any way supportive of the church, i was quoting someone's argument, which is actually a good one because even giving mormons the benefit of the doubt, you can still prove hinckley's logic faulty, by saying there IS some good in the church, that the case of it being 100% fraud is faulty reasoning.

Every sentence in the Book of Mormon doesn't have to be false to determine whether or not it is genuine.

Is the Book of mormon genuine? Yes or No. Tell me what you think.

Is Gone With the Wind genuine because there really was a civil war? It's genuine historical fiction.

Not that we could know if the claims about the civil war in the book are correct unless we could verify them from other sources.

The BoM has no other external verifiable sources like Gone With the Wind has to help us determine which parts are factual.

Genuine what?
The difference is that the church claims the book is "correct" and God-approved. So it's genuine BS. :-)

As a TBM I felt we were progressive in our "translated correctly" paradigm, and I was at ease with the wiggle room it gave us. ANYTHING in the Bible was subject to correction and reinterpretation in the light of "modern revelation". It simply short-circuits all the Christian arguments that Mormonism isn't Biblical, because the Bible has to agree with modern revelation, not the other way around.

Problem is, the "corrections" typically seem like a minister (like Rigdon) trying to clear up sectarian doctrinal specifics, and only further confirm the absurdities like Adam and Eve, Noah, Moses, etc.

-I am more pro-intellect than I am "anti-religion," although religion is inherently anti-intellectual

Thanks for keeping things logical and rational for us, Steve :)

TG