DNA Wrote:
-


> Last year the LDS people were taught to do that in
> conference. They were told to do that to their
> "wayward" children. The ones who don't do it
> aren't following the teachings.

>Question: Mr DNA - could you post a reference to being taught >in conference last year, to use ultimatums?

>I would like to read more about how ultimatums were taught as >appropriate. Was it Gen. Conf, or a local Ward or Stake >Conference?

Susie, I don't have a link or know who gave the talk in GC. But I think it was the Oct 09 conference because I sent a B-inlaw some clips from it in Oct last year.

Snip…
"Parents should also remember the Lord’s frequent teaching that “whom the Lord loveth he chasteneth” (Hebrews 12:6).13 In his conference talk on tolerance and love, Elder Russell M. Nelson taught that “real love for the sinner may compel courageous confrontation—not acquiescence! Real love does not support self-destructing behavior.”14Wherever the line is drawn between the power of love and the force of law, the breaking of commandments is certain to impact loving family relationships. Jesus taught: “Suppose ye that I am come to give peace on earth? I tell you, Nay; but rather division: “For from henceforth there shall be five in one house divided, three against two, and two against three. “The father shall be divided against the son, and the son against the father; the mother against the daughter, and the daughter against the mother” (Luke 12:51–53)."

"This sobering teaching reminds us that when family members are not united in striving to keep the commandments of God, there will be divisions. We do all that we can to avoid impairing loving relationships, but sometimes it happens after all we can do."

There was more in the talk that made it seem to me that it was giving license and encouragement to people to shun and treat those who have "fallen away" as less than.

So if you cause conflict with non-believing family members, Jesus prophesied it?
There WILL be conflict? So id you have non-believing family members and there is no conflict--what? the believer is not doing enough to cause conflict?

source:

love and law, by dallin hoax:
http://lds.org/ldsorg/v/index.jsp?hideNav=1&locale=0&sourceId=2273ad2dbbb94210VgnVCM100000176f620a____&vgnextoid=f318118dd536c010VgnVCM1000004d82620aRCRD

quoting:
Russell M. Nelson, “Teach Us Tolerance and Love,” Ensign, May 1994, 71.

http://lds.org/ldsorg/v/index.jsp?hideNav=1&locale=0&sourceId=84d4425e0848b010VgnVCM1000004d82620a____&vgnextoid=2354fccf2b7db010VgnVCM1000004d82620aRCRD



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 11/12/2010 05:32PM by Nick Humphrey.

You'll have to find the specific talk as I don't drink and drive on the information highway:

http://new.lds.org/general-conference/conferences?lang=eng

Gots all the talks!

Timothy

He's 19 and parties. And does stupid boy stuff that ends up causing second degree burns on his back. His friends record their antics and post them on youtube. Then he writes what an epic night it was like it's really cool on FB. Of course friends and family chastise the idiocy. Lesson learned we hope. But wait there is more. And it's on topic.

My husbands Baptist sisters family have taken in a young 19 year old friend of their oldest daughter. This young lady happens to be from a Mormon family.... and my Modar was hot on her vibe before I even knew she was Mormon. I am not sure of the whole story but her Mormon family kicked her out. I do know she attended a fireside halloween night. But I am not sure how active she is. But she seems really sweet and my niece is really sweet.

The problem is after our nephews dumb overshare, the young lady engaged my neices in harsh social shunning of their cousin. My husband's family has typically met the nephews screw ups with honest call outs but always demonstrating unconditional love.

The shunning was very disturbing to the family and the behavior was quickly addressed and things returned to normal.

This young LDS girl was kicked out of her family home for not complying with some family expectation. So she thinks that shunning and rejection is what you do when you want to modify behavior.

referring to.

I've never been shunned by any LDS folks, to my knowledge. If they are shunning me,I don't know about it!

Hmmm.....putting on my Mormon member-believer hat -- I wouldn't have interpreted those comments as an edict to shun people. But that's just me.
There are too many other scriptures that contradict those comments. Love your neighbor as yourself, leave the ninety and nine and go get the lost sheep, etc, etc. etc.

The Articles of Faith - #11:
We claim the privilege of worshiping Almighty God according to the dictates of our own conscience, and allow all men the same privilege, let them worship how, where, or what they may.

Not a word about shunning in it.

No,the 11th article of faith doesn't SAY anything about shunning,but it's just another example of the hypocracy of the lds church. The 11th article of faith was my "weapon" to use when I was shunned. I would tell the person shunning-I thought followed the articles of faith. They don't. I'm glad you haven't been shunned. It's a horrible experience. My 7 and 10 year olds have been equally shunned. How sad is that.

loveskids Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> No,the 11th article of faith doesn't SAY anything
> about shunning,but it's just another example of
> the hypocracy of the lds church. The 11th article
> of faith was my "weapon" to use when I was
> shunned. I would tell the person shunning-I
> thought followed the articles of faith. They
> don't. I'm glad you haven't been shunned. It's a
> horrible experience. My 7 and 10 year olds have
> been equally shunned. How sad is that.

I agree with you.

It's magical thinking to think that it is the norm for an adult child to decide to leave the LDS church and not get shunned by the family for doing so.

If an adult child drinks alcohol in moderation, they will most likely be shunned for it and have to pay a penalty.

If an adult child lives with a girlfriend, there will be a penalty.

If a teen goes to "The wrong" concert and listens to the wrong music, there is likely to be a penalty.

If you are mainstream LDS, and you don't follow the rules, there is a penalty. Sometimes a severe penalty. I was told that I would be cut out of my parents will when I was a teen and didn't want to go to church.

So how do they all learn this? It's taught in a thousand ways that starts with the leaders.

SusieQ#1 Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> The Articles of Faith - #11:
> We claim the privilege of worshiping Almighty God
> according to the dictates of our own conscience,
> and allow all men the same privilege, let them
> worship how, where, or what they may.
>
> Not a word about shunning in it.

But that so doesn't happen. I couldn't live in my parents house when I was a teen unless I went to the LDS church with them. At 16 I found an apartment, then got in a car wreck and had to move back home and go to church.

Well its true that if I had a son and he did something I did not approve of, of course I would not pat him on the back and say, "Good job, son. Do it again!" I would just continually tell him I will always love him, but that his actions worry me.

But I certainly would NEVER disown him.

When you reach the point that you are willing to turn your back on the people you love, because the organization you are in tells you too... That's when you know you are in a dangerous group, and you need to leave it.



Edited 3 time(s). Last edit at 11/12/2010 09:34PM by melissa3839.

There are two classes of mormons, worthy temple recommend holders and unworthy members who are excluded from family weddings. This is required ritualized shunning.

Shunning does not always take one form as done by the Amish and JWs. Although many mormons do social shunning, it is often subtle and less formalized than in some other cults.

Parents are teaching shunning if they require their children to limit friendships with outsiders, gentiles, people of the world, slurs meaning nonmos in the mormon culture.

I once wrote a post which listed about fifteen examples of common mormon shunning. Most of them were officially required.

Mormons don't usually use the word "shunning" for what they do, but they do often use the word "ostracize," a synonym.

Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 11/13/2010 11:42AM by Timothy.

I know personally, and not a one of them said they were officially taught to shun people who left the church.
I don't know who does that. I know I didn't -- the idea was to not give up, to love them (family members in particular) and in our case, when some went "inactive" and left the LDS Church in their teens and old enough to make their own decisions, they didn't go to church and that was that.
Nobody got kicked out of our house because they wouldn't go to church.
If there were problems at home,(whatever they were) they often ended up at our house at least temporarily!

You don't shun except when it's required and unpreventable and that's commendable. Mormons don't use the word "shunning" for how the priesthood treats women and how they treat inactives and non-members even though these are examples of the church officially requiring it.

Unoffical shunning is also encouraged, but is often more subtle and not observable to some members who don't run smack into it.

Agreed. Most people would not ever admit to "shunning" because it's a terrible word and a terrible thing. But it happens either subtly like with constant little "digs" about a person who wears more than one set of earings, a male who doesnt go on a mission (or has facial hair--evil!!!), or if you don't get your hometeaching done on time, or if you don't pay a full tithe, or if you admit to masturbation.
And sometimes shunning happens not so suddenly when you get excommunicated for being an historian or someone who knows about genetics.

That's another synonym for shunning, an official practice among mormons.

Subtle shunning is taught in GC when GAs and relief society presidents share stories about confronting returned missionaries and telling them that they aren't "following the prophet" and getting in their faces about it.
Lots of examples like that if you go through the talks. Little acts of shunning about "challenging people to be worthy"-and it usually happens to children and young adults.

SQ#1 writes:

"I've been discussing this with other LDS folks I know personally, and not a one of them said they were officially taught to shun people who left the church."

LOLOLOL! ... Like most of your assertions, this one is likewise unverifiable. Do you really expect folks in this forum to blindly accept what you try to pass off as solid research?

Here's more comic relief:

"I've never been shunned by any LDS folks, to my knowledge. If they are shunning me, I don't know about it!

If it hasn't happened to you, it hasn't happened to anyone? Is that what you're saying? There's a whole truckload of real people here on RFM who will tell you that ain't so. And Why does the word of active LDS trump the word of former LDS?

I've been a victim of this un-taught shunning for over thirty years. You don't know who does that? ROTFLMAO! You don't know very many mormons!

Timothy

Is a form of shunning.

Read susieq#1's thread on that. She was shunned.

If it didn't happen to her personally, then it never happens.

One of her two standard posts (the other being that "every church does it").

Mormons practice de facto shunning. They don’t view it that way, but to those of us subjected to it, it sure feels that way.

Mormons shun their neighbors because they are too busy and wrapped up in church callings/activities to spend any time getting to know people who don’t attend church with them. They encourage their children to only spend time with other Mormon kids, non-Mormon kids are left out of the mix. Non-Mormon family are told to wait outside while someone they love is being married inside the temple.

Isn’t that shunning?

Shun – to avoid deliberately and especially habitually (Merriam-Webster)

caedmon Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Non-Mormon family are told to wait outside
> while someone they love is being married inside
> the temple.
>
> Isn’t that shunning?

non-lds haitian flood victims anyone? =)

school/growing up/work/church before I converted,LDS Church/family/friends...... and on and on.
I say over and over - the fact is: human behavior is the same everywhere, just the faces change. :-)

I left the church 40 plus years ago and have never been shunned by Mormon friends and family. Some Mormons will shun, but not all. It is gross stereotyping to say that. As far as the words in conference, I think they are open to interpretation. None of my my friendsand family has interpreted them as a command to shun me.

I was shunned as a member groing up simply because I was different. Liked metal, had facial hair and long hair. It was me not "following the prophet." and it was clear that these were subtle teachings about being "obedient" that came from on high.

40 years? Things change. Control has become much more part of "the gospel."

And I probably wouldn't care about this topic so much, but I was shunned as a member just for my physical appearance.

bona dea Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> I left the church 40 plus years ago and have never
> been shunned by Mormon friends and family. Some
> Mormons will shun, but not all. It is gross
> stereotyping to say that. As far as the words in
> conference, I think they are open to
> interpretation. None of my my friendsand family
> has interpreted them as a command to shun me.


That's my experience, and I agree that the "words in conference" are open to interpretation.
I'm not convinced there is any shunning policy.
There may be people who don't know how to treat people who left the LDS Church, but to shun them? I have never experienced it or witnessed it.

http://www.lds4u.com/lesson5/templequestions.htm

This is the one that most members don't seem to understand and for good reason, it's not explained well.

#7: Do you support, affiliate with, or agree with any group or individual whose teachings or practices are contrary to or oppose those accepted by the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints?

In my experience, this has always been explained to me by the leaders as referring to polygamous groups, and other groups that are not following the main church teachings.

The reason for the question, as explained to me was that they didn't want those groups using the temples for their ordinances as they didn't have their own temples.

That's my understanding and experience.

I'm quite sure there is no reason to believe that the LDS Church won't allow someone into their temple if they associate with family and friends that are no longer LDS. That would be absurd! :-)

My view is that I don't think there is any leader that will claim an official teaching or unofficial one to shun people, members, former members, etc. I don't think there is such an official teaching.

I know of a person who was shunned in order to pevent her from poisioning the minds of other LDS.. she was well on her way to being exed, and other members were specifically warned not to have communication with her for fear that they would also be led astray. She had perviously served as RS president.

Now I on the other hand have never felt shunned and I am still very close with many TBMs.

many of my tbm friends have removed me as a friend on facebook: shunning.

many of them have called me hurtful names while trying in vain to debunk truths i have posted about the church on fb: shunning.

I've read on here that interviewees are asked as part of TR worthiness interviews if they associate with those who don't support the Mormon church - I don't remember the exact language. I understand it as worthy members are not supposed to associate with the "wrong kind of people". That's definitely encouraging shunning, even if the exact term isn't used.

It has been my experience that many Mormons practice forms of shunning in their every day life. Once they find out I'm not interested in ever having anything to do with their religion, they avoid me, sometimes quite pointedly. I have met some who call themselves Mormons, but don't openly shun unworthies, but they seem to be in the minority, or they're most likely Jack Mormons to varying degrees.

Serena Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> I've read on here that interviewees are asked as
> part of TR worthiness interviews if they associate
> with those who don't support the Mormon church - I
> don't remember the exact language.

"
6. Do you affiliate with any group or individual whose teachings or practices are contrary to or oppose those accepted by The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, or do you sympathize with the precepts of any such group or individual?
"
http://www.lds-mormon.com/veilworker/recommend.shtml

Nick Humphrey Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Serena Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > I've read on here that interviewees are asked
> as
> > part of TR worthiness interviews if they
> associate
> > with those who don't support the Mormon church -
> I
> > don't remember the exact language.
>
> "
> 6. Do you affiliate with any group or individual
> whose teachings or practices are contrary to or
> oppose those accepted by The Church of Jesus
> Christ of Latter-day Saints, or do you sympathize
> with the precepts of any such group or
> individual?
> "
> http://www.lds-mormon.com/veilworker/recommend.sht
> ml


I covered that in a post above -- what I was taught. That is not shunning, not in any shape or form, in my view.

We have a lot of people calling all kinds of behavior: shunning, that I don't see as shunning at all. It's a big problem with the definition of the word and what people think it means.
I will maintain that the LDS Church has NO official teaching to shun people. It's interpreted that way by SOME members, but certainly, not all, and NO leader ever promoted such behavior that I experienced in the last four or more decades. But, hey, that's just me! :-)

The fact that you don't see that as shunning is all well and good, but here's a clue for you... you do not get to define other's feelings and experiences for them.

Seriously, how would you like it if someone decided that your church bathroom experience was just you "being irrationally overly sensitive and getting offended over nothing"?

If you knew me personally, you know that would not happen!!

I think some members do very ridiculous things and treat some people very unfairly and ignore and shun people. According to LDS teachings, they need to repent! :-)

I see that some of you feel you were shunned.

Some posters think they know me, so they make very strange comments that are not about me at all.

If you were shunned, that's a shame.