So, DW is TBM, I've been out for over a year, and we have 4 kids. I'm a RM, married in the temple, BYU grad, held major callings, etc. When I first realized the truth, many people on the board were pessimistic about our marriage. They said DW would leave me, our Bishop/SP would counsel her to divorce me. I didn't believe it then, and I still don't. Our (her) leaders have never counseled her to do that, and I would be SHOCKED if they ever did.

The problem is...me. As I've distanced myself more and more from the morg the past several months, I feel like my love for her has diminished as well. She's a great person (she has some flaws, but who, including me, doesn't), and she's a great mom for the kids.

But I guess I'm realizing that much of my love for her was tied into her living the Gospel, and being a good church person. She's fairly attractive (not beautiful or anything), but would definitely be a categorized as a "sweet spirit." And now that I could care less about the church part of her personality, I feel like part of my love for her is going away with it.

Yes, I still see good things in her, and yes, I serve and help her and the kids, and that hasn't changed, but I honestly don't feel the same for her as I did before. I still don't see a divorce in our future (at least in the next few years), but I guess I'm surprised that those feelings would even surface, and not from her, but from me.

Any thoughts?

Divorce is a lot harder on kids than most people realize.

Kids are pretty young...ages 3-13.

Our sex life has decreased, too, but mainly because of me not wanting intimacy. We've both always had pretty low sex drives, though--usually 1-2 times/week is plenty.

For over a year now I have told DW tht my love for her is separate from my belief in the church.

She has told me that the church is more important to her than I am. I have been holding out, hoping that she will one day change her view; she has not. Just last night after going to bed she railed on me for at least half an hour (completely unprovoked... and I fell asleep in the middle of it; it may have gone on longer).

There has been no intimacy in over a year. Yeah, I worry that I will slip one day. Luckily I have not. But after a year of being marginalized and belittled, my love for her has nearly disappeared. And I long for a relationship; I am very lonely.

@ yeahbutdifferent

Get your financial ducks in a row and prepare to exit.

No sex in a year and a nagging wife is too high a price for the dubious pleasure of her company.


This will only get worse. You can do better.

yeahButDifferent Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> For over a year now I have told DW tht my love for
> her is separate from my belief in the church.
>
> She has told me that the church is more important
> to her than I am. I have been holding out, hoping
> that she will one day change her view; she has
> not. Just last night after going to bed she railed
> on me for at least half an hour (completely
> unprovoked... and I fell asleep in the middle of
> it; it may have gone on longer).
>
> There has been no intimacy in over a year. Yeah, I
> worry that I will slip one day. Luckily I have
> not. But after a year of being marginalized and
> belittled, my love for her has nearly disappeared.
> And I long for a relationship; I am very lonely.


That's exactly what I am longing for too. A relationship...a man that cherishes me. That loves me more than his church and would slay a dragon for me if need be. And even with kids to raise,I get very lonely.

Sometimes, I feel the same way, but I always reach the same conclusion-I'm better off with her than without her,
and if I have to grow old and ugly with someone, I'd rather grow old and ugly with her than anyone else.

But my situation may be a little different than yours. My TBM wife went back to school, finished her degree, started working and no longer defines herself strictly by the parameters the church allows. As a result we have interesting new things to talk about and we can compare notes on our careers and dealing with co-workers etc.

Sure there are younger and maybe very slightly prettier women out there but I doubt they'd even give me a second glance. I still feel pretty damn lucky to be married to my wife even with the TBM badge she so proudly wears.

I've considered divorce. I've thought about cheating on her. I've often wondered how often she thinks about divorcing me. I've decided I have it pretty good and I make an effort to keep things good for her too. At this point I think it's working pretty well.

I hope you find a path that works for you. I don't really have any advice to offer I'm just wishing you well.

Stunted

Don't confuse the heady, excited feelings you used to have for your wife with love.

This is a natural phase of any marriage that lasts for more than a few years.

The trick is to try to spice things up. Go on a mini-vacation, or get the kids out for a couple days. You need to reconnect and find the excitement again.

I will make up some statistics:

1)Half of all first marriages end in divorce.

2)For those who don't divorce, what fraction do you think are "happily married"?

3)Religious differences are a major factor in divorce.

4)MOST children are NOT resilient coming from broken homes.

5)The best chance of raising children to stable adulthood is their parents' happy marriage.

6)The 2nd best chance of raising children to stable adulthood is their parents' happy divorce.

7)The 2nd worst chance of raising children to stable adulthood is their parents' unhappy marriage.

8)The worst chance of raising children to stable adulthood is their parents' unhappy divorce.

9)People change. "To change is to grow" - Buddha

It was silent misery trying to uphold the facade. We finally divorced. The kids felt an invisible, but almost tangible amount of unhappiness when they were younger, from the lack of love and connection in our marriage. Like something was wrong, but they couldn't pinpoint it. Adults now, and knowing the full truth of why I stayed.. They have told me that they wished I would have just divorced and they would have still had both of us, happier, in their lives.
Divorce is not easy. My parents divorced when I was young. However, I do believe that sometimes it IS the right thing to do for a the whole family. My kids would have had happier childhoods if I didn't wait for years until they were older.
It's impossible to uphold the charade %100 all the time. Trying to uphold the appearance of a happy marriage became impossible to endure for me. If I had it to do all over again, I would have divorced sooner. Our marriage was no longer healthy for our family, and showed no signs of future change. My children would have benefited in so many ways had I stepped outside of the situation and looked at it realistically.

IMHO, staying for the sake of the kids, is not always the right thing to do. I wish you the best in your situation. I just wanted to give my 2 cents. I have been reading on RfM for years and yrs now. When I first found this board, I asked the same question here. Most people gave me the same opinion I'm giving you now. Back then I didn't listen. I kept thinking I could make it work. My kids were, and are still everything to me- The center of my life. I thought I was putting them first by my decision to stay. I wasn't thinking that line of logic all the way through. Here I am now, seeing that it's hindsight that's 20/20. This is just my personal situation though. Your marriage may be something that can become happy and healthy for all of you again.

Hope things work out for you.

If yours was based on church activity, then you will have to remake it on the basis of other interests, like stunted did.

And Yeah, but different, I feel bad to read your post. Your wife is acting like such a follower that she can't even see what is good for her. Maybe some marital counseling would help, and maybe it is time to move on.

wane at times in a marriage. Maybe "wane" is not the best word: maybe it's more accurate to say our feelings, emotional connection changes. I can attest that it happens.

Over the years of a long marriage like ours, our emotional connection has changed many times. It's not a problem in my view. It's just the natural ebb and flow of our emotional feelings in our lives usually the result of the circumstances we experience.

Part of marriage is commitment and a sense of responsibility to make the best of things even when things are not the best. We become annoyed, upset, angry, unhappy etc, with our spouses from time to time.

Human beings change over the years. Life leaves it's imprint, and we change, all that is expected, I think.

Part of a successful long marriage is the willingness to work at it, to do what works, what is helpful and what will bring out the best in each other, particularly in difficult times. It's a lot of teamwork. It's a willingness to do things we don't really want to do, but do them anyhow.

It's something that has to be worked on that includes our: attitudes, forgiveness, tolerance, gratitude,honesty, etc. etc. It's about making a real effort to do the things that make a marriage relationship work. Sometimes it means overlooking a lot of things that we don't particularly like or care for. Sometimes we "drive each other crazy" but there is nothing like a lot of laughter to get through it all.

What you are experiencing is perfectly understandable. The cult teaches that you have everything in common with any woman who is faithful LDS. This implies that agreement to perform certain roles will somehow equate to love of the individual. Yet the church does not hesitate to recommend divorce if the church membership of the whole family is at stake. Plus they will shun the exmo and counsel the spouse to limit contact, etc, etc., all anti-family.

You need to get to know the person underneath the super TBM behavior, if there is one. And that's the caveat. The church can keep you so busy being a worker bee that there's no time to individuate, or pursue interests other than fulfillment of duty.

Next time you go to dinner, find out what interested her as a child, as a teen. Did she spend her time drawing? With animals? Playing a musical instrument? Writing stories? Making up dances? Writing plays? Working with wood? There is a stunted person inside there, and you can help her come out. Once you find out what she was like when she had free time, schedule some dates around those interests and see what happens. You could be in for a surprise! She could be far more with your help than she will ever be without you. And you might even love the person you unveil.

Good luck

Anagrammy

Me, too.

Part of my problem is that I thought I had a strong spiritual answer to marry her, but now I see it as an emotional response to (a) someone who boosted my ego by being interested in me and (b) I wanted to have sex, but believed I needed to be married.

Or as my neighbor said, "My wife and I had only one thing in common when we got married; we both wanted to have sex."

I don't think that is unusual at all. All the marriage counselors say religion and money are the most critical things when people marry...having kids or not is another. So you now have a different religious belief than her and it is apparently showing itself in your home. Is it making it hard on you when you are with her family? All of this causes you to no longer care about her as you once did. It doesn't mean you dislike her. You are just different.

Is it affecting you due to children that you have? IF so you need to stand up for those kids. Your feelings are as good and valueable as hers. If you are staying for the kids let me tell you that it isn't better when kids are 20 and 22. I am divorced and my daughter who was 22 at the time doesn't speak to her Father anymore due to what she learned about his character. Honesty is always best.

I wish you well. This is a hard decision, but talking things out is always best. Don't hold it in and make it seem like things are okay when they are not. Perhaps if you shared your feelings more it could improve. And if you wish to be with someone who doesn't have this Mormon baggage, then think it through, but do move on once you are sure...life is so short.

How often are you spending time with her? I don't mean required time bringing up the family and various things around the house. I mean how often do the two of you get quality time where you get to enjoy each others company? Take your wife on some dates, rekindle the flame if you can.

Remember, you don't love her for WHAT she DOES, you love her for WHO she IS.

Luckily, my husband is an inactive catholic, so weather or not I believe in LDS doesn't really matter to him.

But I do know this-- if he EVER told me that ANYTHING (especially a church) mattered more to him than I did... He would be talking to himself by the end of that sentence.

Or at the very least, I would give them the "shut up and listen" treatment:

See, a good and effective message is well thought out, and well laid out. So what you do is, write a letter. Meaning write a letter to your spouse stating that you have lost your faith in this particular church (not all churches or God, if that be the case). Write down all the major points that cause you to doubt the LDS gospel, and write out quotes and sources for where you read or saw the information that confimed your doubts. Or shocking information you discovered.

Then tell your spouse that you have a letter you would like to read for them. But that you firmly believe that when someone tries to talk over you, its because they are afraid you might make a valaid point they are not ready for. So all you ask, is that they remain completely silent until you are finished reading the letter. And if they don't, you will walk out the door for good, and they will never see you again.

Then read the letter out loud to them. And don't forget to add that the rule about "never doubting the LDS gospel" was only invented so that the church could keep growing. And that questioning and investigation cannot destroy truth. It only destroys LIES. So anyone who asks you not to question, is hiding something. People who are telling the truth LOVE to be questioned, because it gives them a chance to further prove their word.

After its been read-- discuss it.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 11/12/2010 02:07AM by melissa3839.

Get some marriage counselling with a non-Mormon therapist. Your marriage and your children's happiness is certainly worth that.

There is no abuse, no infidelity, no sexual dysfunction, no hatred, etc, so I think you have a good chance of being happy together the rest of your life.

Susie Q is right--love naturally ebbs and flows, in the course of your life. You might even be going through a midlife crisis.

You don't have to have a by-the-book, ordinary, boring TBM marriage. Break free! Every person is a different individual. You might need to spend more romantic time together on dates, skiing together, going to a concert now and then--whatever floats your boat. Or, you might need private time. Sometimes couples need to miss each other. Take a seperate weekend vacation, and stay home with the kids so your wife can go off with her girlfriends. Break out of your rut--but at the same time, savor your little private traditions. Often couples are too joined at the hip, and can smother each other. Be aware that you need balance in your life. And, yes, men have moods, too, especially at midlife.

Beware of unreasonable expectations! Mormon, especially, put on an artificial front, and pretend that their marriage and life is perfect, when it is not. Never compare yourself to other couples. Too much is expected of Mormon marriages. IMO, you probably have a great marriage, and you don't APPRECIATE that enough. Express that appreciation to your wife, and it will come back to you.

You have received some great advice in these posts. You seem like a nice, genuine husband and father. My gut feeling is that you will not get divorced. But, try to work on your happiness. Good luck to you.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 11/12/2010 03:53AM by forestpal.

But even as a TBM the whole eternal marriage thing never much appealed to me. I mean, think about it. The only flavor you get is strawberry....for eternity....no end ever...strawberry, strawberry, strawberry.

Thanks for everyone's advice and take on this. I don't see us divorcing at this point, but I've learned to never say never. Just seems like a tough (and long) road if our religious beliefs are always going to be different. At least for now, we're happy enough, and I doubt the kids notice anything.

We are coming up on our 15th anniversary soon, and will be getting a weekend alone together, so that will be good.

Sorry, but anon for this Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Thanks for everyone's advice and take on this. I
> don't see us divorcing at this point, but I've
> learned to never say never. Just seems like a
> tough (and long) road if our religious beliefs are
> always going to be different. At least for now,
> we're happy enough, and I doubt the kids notice
> anything.
>
> We are coming up on our 15th anniversary soon, and
> will be getting a weekend alone together, so that
> will be good.

Is it possible that your cult upbringing is partially to blame for this? Just a thought...

I agree with SQ and forestpal (and forestpal and I lived through broken marriages).

I was just talking to my younger sister this morning. She cheated on and left her husband--the father of her only child--about 6 years ago. She now regrets it.

IF you can save the marriage, I say do your best to do so.

I can see the fallout of my marriage breaking up in my kids--especially our son (and he has had his own divorce now). There was NOTHING we could have really done to save our's. If I could have, I would have stayed with my husband at least until the kids were raised. We still care deeply about each other, but as most know, he is gay. I would have stayed even with him cheating and having relationships on the side. The fallout from divorce can be HUGE.

I look at my parents' marriage and some of my relatives' marriages--who stayed together for over 50 years--and it was because they stuck it out through hard times. As long as there isn't abuse, cheating, etc., I myself would try to make it work. I do agree with many things Dr. Phil says even if many think he is full of it--he says that every morning he gets up and asks himself what he can do that day to make his wife's life better.

Lots of advice here, the one thing I can add is for you to examine your feelings closely. Is it possible that because your wife is still TBM you are subconsciously pulling away from her because you identify her so closely with the Mormon church? She may become a symbol for what you are trying to cut out of your life, Mormonism, instead of seeing her as the person you have loved for years. Try to see her for what and who she is. Forgive me, because I don't remember the source or exact wording, but there was a quote I read years ago that has stayed with me: "Love is a choice." It is not involuntary, it is something you can control. Every day when you wake up you choose whether or not to love her, whether you realize it or not. If you really want to stay together, tell yourself every day, "I choose to love her." It has worked for me in rough times. Good luck to you.

you mention an idea that had not occurred to me directly. I had looked at many other things - the details that irritated that did not used to. & I wondered why, why would that one detail be so prevalent?
and your idea is that the person may become synonymous with the lifestyle or the churh itself. Instead of the prophet or the bishop or jesus or whatever or the holy ghost its that person in your life- rather than pushing away from the doctrine, the rush is one to push away from one person who either a)lives that life or is alive near by & they present or represent to you in your own mind *symolically* the entire mormon church.

fortunately for me, its my brother. not my h usband representing religion that annoys me to me.

possibly you could choose or select another role model human to black ball or be annoyed by rather than putting that animous or role upon your husband or your wife. When you are annoyed with something (in this case the church) & find you are unawredly maybe making them symbolix of it presntly.

that's interesting. I wonder if its possibly easy to do. for anyone not just you. so.

hmm. i wonder how to take that syumbol off that person & make them touch life with them again instead. interesting.

You are looking at divorce if you go down this road. That may or may not be the best, but if you want to save your marriage you need to get to know your wife again. You need to build a new relationship with her, not the prepackaged one that Mormonism handed you.

You also should go to marriage counseling. You could even go alone if she won't go or you don't want to bother her with it right now.

Divorce is expensive and difficult. You are obviously thinking about it or you wouldn't post here. Get to work now on your marriage so that it doesn't become inevitable. You certainly don't want to do this to your kids, and you also don't want to be together just for the kids. Trust me, the kids know when that happens.

wow agreed what if you see yourself as one with them (like a twin, can't see where yourself ends or the other begins) & do not any longer want to be that person in the church you don't believe in anymore individually. So you push away from them your spouse, who is like a twin, without a beginning or an end separate from you to - be a different you in rejecting her/or him- your spouse whose like your twin, you get a free pass twithout exploring the inner you. Put all the dark, the traits the rules the junk in life you don't like anymore-
onto this conveniently placed person -
whose been there all this time, by now they're like a long line of memories you can easily slip parts of your traits or personality or decisions you now disagree with- onto them through a special labeling system.
Because you see you & them as one person or a twin with the same religion well, and kids. & now

you no longer want that religion & are you going to confuse them- with a religion you don't like, or with memories decisions traits choices angers discomforts the pain- which is in YOU,which is part of YOU, your memorys your mind your discomfort

stack it on theirsoul instead?

its a possibility people do things like this & they don't even realize it. that couldn't be you she's just annoying right now & god I hate my church. I hate the tiem I spent in the church. How could spend time like that. what am I going to do I am so frustrated with myself I ache I am angry right now. . . .

here is this convenient person for you to ride a bike near, rent a bounce house for the kids with, go to a concert with, take sky diving lessons or river raft near or rent a cabin with to try 12 positions for the kama sutra with- you've got it. you can have it all this joy- now.

want to make this one person the repository for all you hate instead? what to make this one person the one you love to hate? to make them the one you generate an expression of what you hate about the church that betrayed you?

that's deep. I really thought more of love than that. I hope I haven't hurt your feelings.

I say buy candy get chocolate. now. I'm going on a drive in the mountains.I say maybe go dancing walk on the beach make life a party including your spouse in the party while she's still part of you & life with you not a huge bill for you to hate a place to send every thing that frustrates and racket on the other side of a net against which to retaliate.
Make life with her more a party while she's still a part of your life instead of being sated by mentally parting as part of your idealism ache. BEST ;

I really feel your pain. I've been married 39 years, and have never had a worse time in my marriage. We're still decent looking, DW has good figure and is very attractive. We've lost all intimacy, however, and it's worse since I left the church. I've finally begun a relationship with another woman, which was probably inevitable. She and I are both in great need of intimacy, but we seldom see each other due to geographical separation. I want to break all this to DW but don't know how. I want it to finally be over. But I don't want either of us to fall into financial difficulty, I don't want her to be without the protection of my insurance, and I don't want the kids hurt, even if they're all adults. It's reasonably easy to stay married, but terribly difficult to remain without intimacy or sex, especially when you know that there is someone out there who wants to be there for you, someone else who wants you as badly as your spouse should want you. Am I making sense? It's very depressing

Sure, I experience it. It's pretty typical in relationships. Some things that have helped:

Getting time away from our child. We love her, but we need time to ourselves.

Building our friendship. I have been making an effort to be a better listener and communicator and to be more responsive to her needs. I am working on taking time to be with her instead of holing up as much when I'm tired or stressed.

Stress is a big buzz kill, so we are trying to get better at solving problems that chronically cause us stress. Over the past couple of months, for example, we've been working at organizing our household better and working with our finances. We also made some decisions on issues that had been up in the air for a while and caused us some stress.

Trying some new activities together has been good for us and both of us had made some personal changes, too. Change peaks interests. Sometimes loss of loving feelings is from boredom and changing things up now and then revives those feelings.

I've been working on being more open myself and trying to make it safer for my partner to be more open, too, which has resulted in our feeling much closer.

Hope that is something of a help and I hope you feel the love you want to.

Wow, these threads get thick but I fully agree with most of what is said here. Your marriage I think is part of the ebb and flow of many long lasting marriages. Hang in there. Do things you might not otherwise do.

BTW, I heart cl2, susieq, forestpal and robertb is so wise.