I am often asked about how I do it.
This is an overview and a little background from some prior posts.

Everyone's situation is different. It requires compromise, something that is not always easy to do.

I finally recognized that I needed to accept that we both have rights.
There is a right that we often forget. :-)
The right to believe in Mormonism.
That comes into play when one partner changes their mind about their beliefs in the LDS Church's claims.

I was a Mormon for over three decades--certainly, if anyone understood that I would! As a young adult convert, it was my "adopted tribe." I adjusted to the culture shock. It wasn't easy, but I made it work. Besides, I am a bulldog - I have a tenacious personality, I will do the work to find a way for the best outcome!

I could no longer accept or belief the claims, (another story for another time), so ... how do we handle that in our marriage? I was done. Through. Not going to be a Mormon anymore. I needed to tell my husband, and interestingly, he accepted it and asked what I needed from him. I told him I needed him to live the 11th Article of Faith and he said he would, and he has.
(11th Article of Faith: We claim the privilege of worshiping Almighty God according to the dictates of our own conscience, and allow all men the same privilege, let them worship how, where, or what they may. )
Also, it seemed reasonable to "take turns" about a few things. We had done it his way for over 30 years, now he could do it my way, about a few things. And we have! :-)

I completely stopped attending the LDS Church in my late 50's in 1998 after some traumatic events. The last one was The Man in the Restroom story. That was the impetus for figuring out "what is wrong with this picture" and lead to months of research and study, much on line and from books and from a family member doing the same thing. A few years later, my husband retired. I had all ready retired from my last business that I owned. Later, I resigned my membership in 2002.

One Big Lesson I needed to learn,(after making a big mess):
just because I changed my mind, that is no guarantee my spouse will,or anyone else for that matter.
And why would he? Initially, I had the expectation that if I changed my mind, everyone else would. Ahh...not so fast, it does not work that way.

I am 100% certain that there is no way my believing husband of over seven decades will change his mind about his beliefs in Mormonism. I used to think it was just a matter of some information, or hey, look what I found, did you know this, but I did not take into consideration the immense power of the spiritual witness and the power of the belief by faith. That was a wall I could not surmount. And, believe me, I tried.

What I initially failed to take into account, was the power of that belief by faith that others have, that is paramount in Christianity in general, as I well know, coming from a long line of Christian ministers. Nothing new there. They didn't change their faith, or change their mind either.

Well. ....What to do?
Hmmm..... I needed to set some priorities and make a decision that would have the best possible outcome and pay attention to some basic facts of life: nobody can change anybody else. I had to sit with that for a long time to finally "get it." I had to do the work to let go of the emotional attachment to the expectation (a little Buddhism helped me with this), and that I did not have the power to change another person. That was a biggie!

Then I needed to ask myself:
Can I make peace with that?
Can I let it go?
Can I leave it alone and not make it an issue? (This was very hard!)

Then I learned something that took me a lot of years to finally "get" -- it's only an issue if I make it one! Ahh... I had options -- and lots of them. I didn't have to make my decision into more than it was -- or don't make a mountain out of a mole hill.

Maybe, sometimes, people just give in. They can't out-talk or out-fight their partner, they are worn down, so they acquiesce and go along to get along! But did I want that? Clearly -- no.

Maybe, just maybe, the marriage and that investment of love, time, family, financial, emotional issues, etc. is much, much, much more important that a difference of opinion about some beliefs ! Could I make peace with that? You bet I could! Probably helped that I was a convert and had a couple of decades of life prior to Mormonism that was part of who I was also.

I realized early on that I needed to give myself permission to do the work to find my own path to inner happiness and peace. And, that is what happened, little by little. Making Peace with it all was not a conscious goal, it was the result of the process of rewriting thinking scripts left over from Mormonism, seeing The Big Picture and creating my new World View, all the while protecting my self respect, self confidence, etc. I was OK all along. Making peace with my life, all of it was the natural result.

That meant I was learning to process the past, let it go and focus on living in the Now. It's not easy, my mind likes to back and rework things, repeat the past in my head. But did I need that? NOPE! Sure didn't. That included making peace with my life as a Mormon and making peace with my life as a former Mormon. There were no: wouldas, shouldas, couldas, what if's.

It required that I do the work. I was the one to change my attitude and change my focus. Just thinking about it was overwhelming. So, I had to practice some skills. They were new ones. I did some study, research, read a bunch of books, took classes and found out what I needed to do. I needed to learn the skills of focusing on today, having an attitude of gratitude. I needed to learn to be more skeptical, use critical thinking skills, less gullible; think about what I wanted to accept and believe from any source. No more: go along to get along just because someone else is doing it, or believes it, or suggested I do it.

More conclusions:
Some things are just not worth fighting or arguing about for or against.
We can't all be the same.
We can't all believe the same things.
We can't be everything to anyone all the time.
AND:
What did I want for myself and my family: I wanted everything that was within my power. Next I had to figure out what was within my power and what was not.

I decided: I am not going to give up anything; not one iota of my investment in my family, home, marriage because I changed my mind about my beliefs in Mormonism. We are people first. Beliefs second. Once I set that priority and kept it firmly planted in my mind, life started to flow peacefully. It was like opening up a damn that I had constructed within myself. When I let go, things began to flow much more smoothly.

The result: we have a peaceful life for the most part; he is a believer and I am not. He has his beliefs, and I have mine. Do they agree all the time. Absolutely not. Why would we? Is it OK to argue, and make a fuss? Sure it is. We can do that. We can be passionate about our differences. We have agreed to disagree. And, why not? It's OK. We can do that, no matter what the issue is.

I hope to get to 50 plus years of marriage and not let something as insignificant as a difference of opinion about religiously based claims and belief by faith divide us or our family! Do we have to work on it? Of course we do!

So.... life goes on and on and on.
We make the best with what we have.
The older we get, the more changes and health issues we face. Some very scary ones! It's a struggle, but it's always worth it.

We play the cards we are dealt. Not everyone gets the same cards!

I chose well. My spouse is a good man. And, I am told, those are hard to find! :-)
I have a "fix it" personality which I have learned is not always needed! ;-)


It is not always easy, or smooth sailing, but with a little effort and a positive attitude it is so much easier! Resentments and anger melt away in the face of a positive attitude and laughter. Wow. How did I miss that?

There was no room for negative self talk, or negative energy either. I knew I was OK. I knew I could do anything I set my mind to. I have to slap myself around some times and knock some sense into my head...again, and again....and admit my errors, take responsibility, make amends, and start over, dozens of times, but the more I stay on course, stay focused on what I really wanted for myself and my family, the easier it becomes.

Appreciation is an amazing power supply. It's like magic. Practically nobody can resist it! :-) It's surprising how far a simple compliment will go! A -- thank you!
Just walk down the street or drive your car with a smile on your face !
Say something to get a laugh from someone. They won't forget you. It will break down barriers and open doors.

I have learned that life is best lived with a sense of humor. A lot of laughter every day. I'm so convinced of the health benefits of laughter (well documented) it ought to be prescribed by doctors! :-)

With what years I have left, I have given myself permission to get to the laughter, find the fun and enjoy it. A smile and laughter is contagious! Practically nobody can resist that either!

Difference of opinions, in the long run of a very long life with good people are really not that important! ahh... What a relief to know it's OK to let go, let it be, don't let the past mess up my present....... and just ....enjoy today!

[These are my observations and conclusions. They are subject to change as I receive "further light and knowledge"!-]

SusieQ#1 Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> I finally recognized that I needed to accept that
> we both have rights.
> There is a right that we often forget. :-)
> The right to believe in Mormonism.

Did you give an ultimatum to your spouse about his Moism belief?

That's not usually why a mixed mo/exmo marriage has problems. The one not believing isn't making ultimatums that the TBM spouse stop believing or the marriage is finished.

When was the last time anyone here heard of an exmo issuing an utlimatum on the marriage like that?

Jesus Smith Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> SusieQ#1 Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > I finally recognized that I needed to accept
> that
> > we both have rights.
> > There is a right that we often forget. :-)
> > The right to believe in Mormonism.
>
> Did you give an ultimatum to your spouse about his
> Moism belief?
>
> That's not usually why a mixed mo/exmo marriage
> has problems. The one not believing isn't making
> ultimatums that the TBM spouse stop believing or
> the marriage is finished.
>
> When was the last time anyone here heard of an
> exmo issuing an utlimatum on the marriage like
> that?



Ultimatums are not productive, or have positive results. They don't work, in my view. There are no ultimatums in our household.

I think what J.S. is trying to say is that most of the time a "mixed" marriage has problems, it is due to the Mo giving the ex-mo an ultimatum to stay in the church or end the marriage. It was a rhetorical question to you, asking if you had given your husband an ultimatum, done so to make a point. And as I posted below, we are lucky to have spouses that DID NOT make us chose between them and the church.

SQ#1 wrote:

"Ultimatums are not productive, or have positive results. They don't work, in my view. There are no ultimatums in our household."

Again, your recipe doesn't apply to most folks. You're not the believing wife facing the threat of losing your ticket to heaven. TBM men don't care if their earthly spouse quits. If said spouse cuts them off, they'll divorce and find someone who won't, and there's plenty of poontang waiting behind the veil.

Lets try this again, shall we?

Jesus Smith asked:

"Did you give an ultimatum to your spouse about his Moism belief?"

Answer: "No"

Jesus Smith then points out ...

"That's not usually why a mixed mo/exmo marriage has problems. The one not believing isn't making ultimatums that the TBM spouse stop believing or the marriage is finished."

... which apparently went in one ear and out the other with no resistance.

Then Jesus Smith asks:

"When was the last time anyone here heard of an exmo issuing an utlimatum on the marriage like that?"

Answer: "Never"

You know, Q, if everyone did things my way, the world would be a great place ... FOR ME! ... Again, your situation is beyond unique which means its not really applicable to the vast majority of marital issues found on RFM.

Always blame the victim!

Timothy



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 11/11/2010 04:52PM by Timothy.

Susie, this was just what I needed to read! I, too, have a fix-it personality and I tend to get frustrated at my dh for believing something that is so unbelievable to me. I am still working to learn to respect his right to believe. Your words of wisdom were very helpful to me. Thank you for sharing your insight. As for what the above poster said, it is a different story when a spouse gives an ultimatum. Fortunately, you and I both have good guys who love us more than the church! I feel for those that are not as lucky!

a spouse who has the same beliefs I used to have. It's mind boggling to the believer to be faced with someone, who for decades had the same beliefs and now wants him to believe differently. Say What? What happened? Makes no sense to my husband. Why would he want to do that? That is not who he is.

So what if he believes in Mormonism! He has that right. I used to. I had that right also.

One of the important things, I found that works well, is to take the religion off the table. No discussion, no attitude, no snide comments, no nastiness, no thinking one or the other is an idiot, and too stupid to know what is right, etc. Knock off the negativity! Just stop it. Stop thinking negative thoughts, stop expressing them. It erodes the relationship.
Keep it up and the marriage will be over. Nobody wants to live like that.

I keep coming back to the old adage to treat people the way you want to be treated. If only more people did that!

SusieQ#1 Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------

>
> Then I learned something that took me a lot of
> years to finally "get" --
>
>it's only an issue if I
> make it one! Ahh... I had options -- and lots of
> them. I didn't have to make my decision into more
> than it was -- or don't make a mountain out of a
> mole hill.
>

Your whole story was interesting to read, and I'm sure will be helpful for some who are struggling with spouses who still believe.

It may be helpful to remember that it took you years to get it. Sometimes you seem to be berating those who try to be too pushy in getting the change they want. It comes across very holier than thou, you shouldn't be doing that, I'm wise and I know.

It doesn't always come across in your posts to others that you have done the same thing that they are doing, and you did it for years. Perhaps you are trying to spare them the futility of spending years doing it, but I was surprised in reading your story that you spent years doing what you get on other people's cases about; and perhaps they've only been doing it for months, not years.

Perhaps when you are whacking them over the head with their own futility, it would be good to remember you did it for years. Many here will not have read your story, and won't know that you did the same thing that you condemn.

Misinterpret the statements, twist the meaning and never "get it". Missed the points all together. In fact, they are driven by such strong negative bias to try to destroy the credibility of the experience of others. What a shame.

True, we missed your point. It was difficult to discern exactly what was being said.

I take it this is your summary:

> Some things are just not worth fighting or arguing about for or against.
> We can't all be the same.
> We can't all believe the same things.
> We can't be everything to anyone all the time.

And again, I think that exmos usually don't usually have a problem with people being different (they did a lot of hand-wringing to quit being a sheeple), they don't worry about unified beliefs (they often left belief altogether), and they gave up pleasing everyone (tbm families have rejected them thoroughly). As such, I think you're preaching to the choir.

What we would like to know, how can we just be accepted by the ones we love without their ultimatums and love-bombings?

.. Its also unfair to ask of SusieQ.

Guarantee if she were the believing spouse, that happy little household without ultimatums would be a living hell for hubby.

Timothy



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 11/11/2010 04:59PM by Timothy.

You do the same thing to other posters here.

Did the church give you, as well as him (especially him) a hard time over that?

Nina Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Did the church give you, as well as him
> (especially him) a hard time over that?

Some individuals have had a harder time adjusting than others, but for the most part, nobody gives us a hard time.
I know many members, some I have known for years. The local leadership has been respectful of our circumstances and don't bother us.

I've had intrusions at times, but they were handled and I made a few things clear that if anyone wants to visit, they need to call first and make an appointment. We live in a small town, we see some of the members around town. Everyone is friendly and decent and so are we.
We treat people with the same kindness and respect we want shown to us. I think that works the best, at least, for us.

Jesus Smith said:
"What we would like to know, how can we just be accepted by the ones we love without their ultimatums and love-bombings?"

First off, nobody likes rejection, however, we may never be accepted for a multitude of reasons, some we may never know the reasons why, either. It's really hard when it's a loved one.

I'm not accepted or accepted and rejected dozens of times in my lifetime.

About ultimatums:

It's my observation that most often, people who use ultimatums are usually frustrated at not being able to understand changing circumstances.

They can't get that round peg back in that round hole! :-)
Nothing fits, nothing is the same.

They are probably operating out of fear. They wonder what they did to cause this change. They want things the way they used to be. They are having a hard time adjusting to big changes from others in their lives.

This is especially true, in my observation with generational Mormons whose whole life, culture, language, dress, etc. is part of their life and heritage. It's always been supported and seen as the right way to live.

My view, is that, when faced with ultimatums, we need to show more love and be understanding--show some compassion for what we are asking from others:
I know this is a shock, surprise, difficult to understand.
Then, in my view, anyhow, it helps to be on your best behavior, appreciative, loving, kind, helpful, going out of your way to help others adjust to what you are asking of them.

This might not work for everyone, but it's part of how I see it if I put myself in my husband's shoes. He had lived with a lot of our family habits, (three decades, at least) and behaviors from me specifically,jointly and individually, and naturally has the expectation they will continue. He didn't know these changes in me would occur. He didn't plan for a day when I didn't want to go to church, or wear the garments, or pray with him, or a dozen other things that were part of our life style.

That's how I see it. It's different for everyone. There are so many dynamics that play into our relationships. It's often hard to find a way to make it all work well, even under the best of circumstances.

That's my thinking on the matter. It's up to us to find what will work in our own family. I'm for doing what ever works to keep the family working as a unit with respect and love.

I don't know if this makes sense, it's a little hard to put into words.

SQ#1 writes:

"My view, is that, when faced with ultimatums, we need to show more love and be understanding--show some compassion for what we are asking from others"

In other words, mormons are entitled to more respect than others?

Unbelievable!

Timothy



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 11/11/2010 09:38PM by Timothy.

This is my story.This is how I do it. If there is something that is of value to someone else, that's great.

It does not work for everyone. Others have other needs, other circumstances, other personalities to deal with.

My initial post pin pints the attitudes and behaviors that are the most productive in our lives. This is how I manage the differences in the dynamics of our home, maintaining our marriage relationship and keeping the family together.

I have found, (sometimes through trial and error), the most effective and productive methods, skills, thinking patterns, to preserve and maintain the kind of life we want for ourselves.


Sadly, some have mistaken my husband and I for someone else, making comments that show they do not know us at all, or how our family functions. If they knew us those comments would never be made as they are not about us.

Susie Q#1 My wife & I have been married over 50 years and counting. She still believes some LDS things, but we are nearly in complete harmony. We pull together and work and see things the same way. It took time and patience and a mix of things that most would not believe if told. The truth of things that transpire in a person's life such as we have been through would be classified as science fiction to those that who have not been through what we have endured. We are so far from the standard of the LDS in that we believe and practice The Love that the Savior pointed out was the greatest commandment to follow. The excess garbage that the tscc and all religions have piled on are not only not acceptable to us but have no basis for their imposition except for control and guilt trips to control their members. This we totally reject.

Dr. B (Buzzard Bait) Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Susie Q#1 My wife & I have been married over 50
> years and counting. She still believes some LDS
> things, but we are nearly in complete harmony. We
> pull together and work and see things the same
> way. It took time and patience and a mix of things
> that most would not believe if told. The truth of
> things that transpire in a person's life such as
> we have been through would be classified as
> science fiction to those that who have not been
> through what we have endured. We are so far from
> the standard of the LDS in that we believe and
> practice The Love that the Savior pointed out was
> the greatest commandment to follow. The excess
> garbage that the tscc and all religions have piled
> on are not only not acceptable to us but have no
> basis for their imposition except for control and
> guilt trips to control their members. This we
> totally reject.


Thank you so much for sharing your story! It's wonderful. Gives people hope! :-)

is useless.

Mormon mentality dictates "my way or the highway" in the face of what they perceive as recalcitrant behavior.

There can be no compromise when dealing with that style of emotional terrorism.

I have never dealt with anyone issuing an ultimatum, nor is there any "emotional terrorism" in my marriage. I know why people use ultimatums, however; it's usually about control and manipulation based on fear.

Not all Mormons play the "my way or the highway" game, or any other head games.

SusieQ#1 Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> I have never dealt with anyone issuing an
> ultimatum, nor is there any "emotional terrorism"
> in my marriage. I know why people use ultimatums,
> however; it's usually about control and
> manipulation based on fear.
>
> Not all Mormons play the "my way or the highway"
> game, or any other head games.


Last year the LDS people were taught to do that in conference. They were told to do that to their "wayward" children. The ones who don't do it aren't following the teachings.

I would like to read more about how ultimatums were taught as appropriate. Was it Gen. Conf, or a local Ward or Stake Conference?

DNA Wrote:
-
>
>
> Last year the LDS people were taught to do that in
> conference. They were told to do that to their
> "wayward" children. The ones who don't do it
> aren't following the teachings.

Timothy's assertions to the contrary, it IS possible to survive in a "mixed" marriage and still be happy!

When I left the church many years ago, the bishop called my husband into his office and observed, "Brother Catnip, your wife has left the church." (Very astute, right??)

DH: Yes, Bishop, she did.

Bishop: Well, what are you going to do about it?

At this point, my husband studied the picture of Jesus on the wall behind the bishop's desk.

DH: I guess I'll have to do what the Savior taught.

Bishop: (startled) And what is that?

DH: Leave the ninety-and-nine, and follow after the one that has strayed.

The bishop couldn't very well argue with that, could he?

That is exactly what DH has done. He remains a believer. I'm an apostate. And we are more in love than ever. Compromise IS possible.

Gotta luv what your DH said to the bishop! YES, it certainly is possible to keep a marriage together and make it stronger, ,adn better, even if one does leave the LDS Church and the other does not.

Susie Q, I loved both your story and the exquisite manner of your replies to people who obviously have not reached your level of peace. You know, peace is one of the Fruits of the Spirit, which only come through the Spirit's work in our souls.

When I read a lot of these posts, the rage and vitriol is so palpable that I can readily see what stage of grief these people are in. We are all in grief-work because of our life experiences and relationship with the church...but you are a wonderful example to me of someone who has successfully navigated this trauma.

Thank you for your story. And give your husband a big fat KISS for all of us who love him!

Thank you, Cyn for your kind words! :-)

Yes,indeed, we all go through different stages/levels of : grief, fear, anger, confusion, shock, hurt, trauma, etc.,etc. navigating our way out of Mormonism and all that entails.

My comments are about the journey to making peace with our lives. It's a new kind of existence. It's my experience that the process of making peace requires understanding what the others, close to us, that are still Mormons are experiencing because of our decisions and changes. It's not just about us, it's about the rest of our family also.

Hubby will take all the "big fat kisses" he can get! :-) That's a hoot.

Joseph Bell Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> ????

Susie, I hope you aren't logging in with another name to give yourself fan mail?

Cyn Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Thank you, Cyn for your kind words! :-)
>
> Yes,indeed, we all go through different
> stages/levels of : grief, fear, anger, confusion,
> shock, hurt, trauma, etc.,etc. navigating our way
> out of Mormonism and all that entails.
>
> My comments are about the journey to making peace
> with our lives. It's a new kind of existence. It's
> my experience that the process of making peace
> requires understanding what the others, close to
> us, that are still Mormons are experiencing
> because of our decisions and changes. It's not
> just about us, it's about the rest of our family
> also.
>
> Hubby will take all the "big fat kisses" he can
> get! :-) That's a hoot.