I don't think we can, really. It's probably a form of mental masturbation or something, but I would like to know why--I mean really, WHY--Mormons act the way they do. I got to thinking more about this after reading the entry by "foundoubt." Considering the Christian behavior, acts, and attitudes of others, why do members of "the only 'true' church" treat others the way they do? Why will your atheist buddies come over to check on you after your operation, but no one from the LDS church drops buy unless by assignment? Are there valid answers to this piss-poor behavior that constitutes really bad manners?

My Father In Law experienced Exactly the behaviour you describe. He went into hospital for a cancer op, and none of the people from Church ( including the Bishop whom he had known for 30 years ) visited him.
It happens because generally the people at Church aren't your true friends. You may share a belief but when you think about it, are they the people you would choose to associate yourself with?
The majority of Mormons (and I know I'm generalising here) attend Church because they want/need something. Comfort, status, emotional support, power, someone to talk to etc Not because they want to give something, like friendship.

With callings and meeting and all the Church stuff that having the time to cultivate real friendships is out of the question, while trying to shoehorn some living into a cult controlled life.

Mormons don’t even have time to stop and examine what they’re doing and the consequences that they’re having because the cult programming stops them from thinking along any lines that would allow them to perceive the Church for what it really is.

I see your point, however, TBM will always serve the church before everything and anyone else. I understand the church tactic to keep their sheep so busy that they have no time to think, that is a retention tool. But the question is, why, WHY, don't they say NO, my plate is full, and I have to do other things? They will never say NO to the church, but they have no problem saying NO to everyone else. that is the question.

Example: My sister (youngest, I have 2) still TBM. When I had my twins, I was hospitalized for 2 months before my babies were born. They were born 3 months premature, so after they were born, they had to stay in the hospital for another 2 months. So in total, I spent 4 months in the hospital that year. She did not come to visit me or my children even once. This is my own sister. She was just too busy with her callings in the church to fit me in. A few times my children could have died.

She has 5 children of her own, and I visited her in the hospital, even if she was there for only 2 days, for every single one of her children.

My mother and this sister are the only ones in our family still TBM, every one else is out. If there is ever an event that falls on the same date as a crummy church activity, my sister will always choose the crummy church activity over our 'heathen' family event. Every single time. She will never, EVER, miss her visiting teaching, but she will not visit one of us in the hospital.

I agree with jon, When i went to church it was all about me and what i got from being there, popularity, status and attention and everyone else was the same. it was almost like a competition. I was friends with people because they were in my group.( with a couple of exceptions) if i saw those people today i wouldn't really know them and they wouldn't know me.

My thoughts are hard to put into words and explain, but I'll give it a try.

Mormonism teaches a mindset of doing not much more than just enough. Picture a race of undetermined length, you just run as far as possible. That's how many religious people view things. Mormons are more like a race with a finish line. With a finish line, everybody does just enough. Even Olympic runners always stop after the finish line, they do just enough.

Mormons conceptualize a finish line. I've done enough for a temple recommend, I don't need to go further. I've got a high status calling, I don't need to go further. I pay tithing and fast offerings, I don't need to give more to charitable causes. My sons went on missions, I don't need to do more. I did my home teaching, I don't need to do more. etc. etc.

All those build a finish line where in their minds the race is over, they can stop now. Without a finish line, you continually think that you should do more, and you do more.

I've theorized for years that the temple recommend was the most damaging thing for the church. It makes people think that they've done enough.

You can be a real ass, and tell the complete truth in a recommend interview, and still be worthy to get one. Then said ass thinks that they are doing enough.

Mormons sometimes consciously think this out, but for many it is just out of conscious reach. But in their minds there is a finish line where they have done enough already that month, so visiting the sick etc. isn't necessary. they already reached the finish line that month.

People without this mindset keep on doing what seems right all the time; there is no line where they have done enough, so now it's bro/sis so-and-so turn.



Edited 3 time(s). Last edit at 11/10/2010 10:09AM by DNA.

I should probably save it.

DNA-- I very much agree wiht this. Although much of the time, you can never seem to have enough callings in the church-- most LDS memebrs have this snotty, smug, "I'm better than everyone else because I'm sealed in the temple" attitude.

I don't mean to sound hateful, its just I have a lot of scared feelings from the way I was treated by some members, so forgive me if I sound vicious sometimes. I'm not usually a hateful person, I promise, lol. this is just a really big sore spot for me.

Some LDS memebrs think its ok to go around treating everyone like a worthless piece of crap, because they think they'll be in the highest kingdom, and everyone else will be the low-lives with less power and privilage, in lower kingdoms.

And once they get married in a temple, they just go totally lax, and start doing whatever they want. They figure they got their temple sealing, so nothing else matters now. What a load of crap.

Screw them!



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 11/11/2010 01:09AM by melissa3839.

Somewhere in my theory I need to account for the seemingly irreconcilable other side of the coin, the part where people feel guilty for not ever being perfect enough.

Human behavior often doesn't seem to make sense at all. Mormons can know of other people who are sick and need help, and easily think, "I've done enough, let their home teacher/VT do it"; then later, and seemingly unrelated to that incident, have an underlying, "I'll never reach perfection" guilt thing going.

It's a dualistic, "I'm sealed and attend the temple, and done my HT/VT this month, that's enough, let someone else do it", and then have an underlying, "I've got to strive for perfection and will never make it" thing going.

Of course there are some very arrogant holier than thou types who are missing the strive for perfection guilt altogether, they really do think that they have it made, with room to spare.

I had an accident last saturday--a bad fall due to my being a moron--but i digress. i am now by myself with my right arm in a weird immobilizing contraption, not able to work or drive or dress myself. still in a lot of pain. haven't had an experience like this since leaving TSCC and utah. what a difference.

When i was in utah and needed someone to drive me to the hospital for gall bladder surgery, i got "well,whos your VT?" no offers of help and finally my aging aunt who was afraid to drive, took me.

this week my neighbors, uu church friends and people at work are all over it. no one is assigned. they just call and come. it has been very sobering. i don't feel so alone. i feel so sorry for people who only hang on to mormonism because they feel like they have a community of friends. that friendship is so conditional.

And are you getting by okay? It's sad to think of you all laid up like that.

well, just doing time now. thanks for askin. gotta figger out how to drag my butt back to work with this contraption attached to my side. don't ask me what i'll do when i get there--but as long as i get my carcass in the door, they have to pay me and i dont have to go on reduced-pay disability. after bone heals the PT starts--and i'm a woosie so not lookin forward to that.

since I heard about your accident on facebook. Wish I could be there, but I'm so glad you have so many people ready and able to help.

Not that there aren't nice, unselfish Mormons, but fundamentally, Mormonism is a selfish belief system. It's all about earning your own salvation, making yourself a God, being a Savior in Zion for your kindred dead, jumping through LDS hoops to feel good about yourself, accomplished, special. It's not about getting outside yourself and helping others. If you help others, it's often because you are assigned to do so - not because you are interested or motivated to volunteer to do so. It's just another thing to check off your "making Godhood" list along with making sure your son has a white shirt on, not piercing your ears an extra time and avoiding coffee. And if you are so busy doing everything "right" you are going to notice immediately if someone is doing something "wrong". You aren't going to react with compassion - you are going to have the attitude "Well, I manage to jump through all the hoops - why can't you?" Combine that with teachings like "the righteous will prosper in the land" and "don't let non-LDS lead you astray"... you are going to have a lot of distance between you and your neighbor, instead of loving your neighbor as commanded. You'll feel superior to your neighbor or afraid of your neighbor as a threat to your salvation because they are "different."

I had an epiphany other day as to why our bishop is such a jackwagon. Because he doesn't care much about the Savior or service. He is in Mormonism for what he can get out of Mormonism. The priesthood power. He harps about the priesthood power every talk he gives. He grew up in a family where the mom left the dad because he was Catholic and eventually she realized he'd never convert so they got a divorce. Bishop went through a terrible time because of this, by his own words, and now his main interest in religion is because it gives him the priesthood power to keep his family together. God himself is on the bishop's team to get the bishop what the bishop wants.

A lot of Mormons are like this. There is something they want that Mormonism promises so they jump through Mormon hoops to get it. Outside of Mormonism, people tend to be good or bad because they WANT to be good or bad. If they check on their friends, help out at a charity, are loyal to another person it's because they choose to do so. Mormons do so because they think it's required to get the payoff Mormonism promises.

IMO

"...fundamentally, Mormonism is a selfish belief system"


a cogent insight - I wonder if it is more tellingly presented as:

"Mormonism is a me-oriented belief system"


??

As a "child" of the mormon god, you will be told what to do and when to do it.
Or unless someone with authority (read that someone who has a more direct line with god) tells...er asks you to do it, then you don't need to do it.

our home burned down. 95% was lost.

After the commotion was over and we dug through the smoldering ashes to see what could be salvaged, guess who shows up? Yep, the bishop, whom I've never met. After he snooped around, probably looking for an ashtray or a melted bottle of booze, he so graciously informed us in a solemn tone that the ward is behind us.

Rather than offer help, the saintly ones only came to ask for a brick or two as it was one of the old pioneer homes here in town and they wanted to have a reminder. They showed up like vultures.

If you call that help, well, that's about all the help we got and believe me, we could have used it.

We re-built without their help.

Plastic people with plastic hearts.

ST

Oh gee...I didn't know they were supposed to come visit. Mormons I mean. I was in the hospital for 10 days after a sezure (can't spell) 5 days with cancer complications,5 more days after 2 cancer surgeries,my then 4 year old was in the hospital for 10 days with a massive infection in her leg. She almost lost her leg. Would ya believe we didn't get one mormon visitor in all those hospital stays. I guess we weren't righteous enough,or maybe the hospitals were to far away. I was offened by it,but really surprised when no one showed up to visit dd.

My ward seems more and more impersonal -- I don't remember it being this way when I was younger. People used to hang out and talk (or have an after church potluck). Now, as soon as the third hour is over, it's a race to the door. Fake smiles all the way to the parking lot. Probably a reflection of the times.

Some other churches, and just good people in general, are more like the special Olympics. They want to help everyone feel good and enjoy life, whether they are in first place or not.

Mormonism is like the real Olympics. If you're not in the top three... you suck.

It's about climbing to the top. Being the wife of the bishop, getting into the bishopric, EQ presidency, Relief society presidency, etc. 10th place in the ward doesn't count. It's not the special Olympics where everyone is a winner.

I can relate to all the experiences you are sharing in this discussion. I had just gotten out of the hospital after eight months of procedures and I received no visitors. I had to call the bishop three times before he finally showed up. No help, no offers of help, no other visits. A few weeks later we got a letter asking from the same bishop for donations for some anti-gay marriage propositions the church was secretly pushing.

I also remember the bishopric getting a stern letter from church headquarters chastising them for doling out more help to members than the ward collected from fast offerings and that the ward needed to collect more offerings. Gasp, the ward was not being profitable enough.

This is probably one of the least-christian of christian churches that I have seen

delegating charity interferes with natural feelings of empathy.

If a priesthood holder abuses, LD$ often ignore feelings to help the victim, and stop the abuse, and instead make excuses for the priesthood a$$ who is abusing so they can sustain, and support him. They obey the authority, and blame, and forget the victim.

If a member has lingering love and acceptance for family that leaves, they can turn it off like a light switch, and shun them instead. All for obedience to cult ideas.

Passing the buck is a fine art in TSCC. People in need are not given understanding, but are considered projects, and burdens, because of obedience. I only asked for help when I had no other option, and dreaded it, because I was treated like garbage. It was traumatic for me. They put you through the standard interrogation to remind you how much they care: who's your vt?, who's your ht?, ask the rs president, that's the bishop's job, etc. - LD$ are always looking for someone to pass "the problem" onto, because they are obeying, not feeling.

atheist&happy:-) Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> delegating charity interferes with natural
> feelings of empathy.
>
> If a priesthood holder abuses, LD$ often ignore
> feelings to help the victim, and stop the abuse,
> and instead make excuses for the priesthood a$$
> who is abusing so they can sustain, and support
> him. They obey the authority, and blame, and
> forget the victim.
>
> If a member has lingering love and acceptance for
> family that leaves, they can turn it off like a
> light switch, and shun them instead. All for
> obedience to cult ideas.
>
> Passing the buck is a fine art in TSCC. People in
> need are not given understanding, but are
> considered projects, and burdens, because of
> obedience. I only asked for help when I had no
> other option, and dreaded it, because I was
> treated like garbage. It was traumatic for me.
> They put you through the standard interrogation to
> remind you how much they care: who's your vt?,
> who's your ht?, ask the rs president, that's the
> bishop's job, etc. - LD$ are always looking for
> someone to pass "the problem" onto, because they
> are obeying, not feeling.


So true.

You have been assigned a checklist of things to do, and if you do them, you are supposed to be a "good person", or worthy, or something like that.

If it's not on the list, it's optional.

And there is SOOO much expected of church members, I think they are more stressed out than other people: more kids, more financial obligations (tithing), more things to do in the off-work hours (meetings, vt, ht, service projects, scripture study, temple attendance, develop your talents, etc). AND they get to be told how to think and feel as well.

That's a lot of stress. I think at the end of the day that people get burned out and they are just surviving themselves. They don't have the time or the energy (and maybe not even the SKILLS . . . and I speak for myself, here) to nurture REAL friendships, because most of their friends are essentially ASSIGNED to them (either because they are explicitly TOLD to befriend them or because they only socialize with people in the ward and similar callings because those are the only people they ever spend TIME with, as all their free time is spent at church functions).

Again . . . if it's not on their list of "must-do" things, they just might not do it.

imaworkinonit Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> most of their friends are
> essentially ASSIGNED to them (either because they
> are explicitly TOLD to befriend them or because
> they only socialize with people in the ward and
> similar callings because those are the only people
> they ever spend TIME with, as all their free time
> is spent at church functions).
>


In my last ward, every Sunday in GD class they would see who wasn't there and assign people to "Miss" them. Then the person was supposed to call them and tell them that they had missed them when they weren't at church.

This is a false gospel that it NOT centered on the true love of christ. This church was created by man not by God. I asked myself the same questions you are asking when I was active and I thought I was crazy fro thinking those thoughts. I would rationalize and excuse the behavior but in fact I've learned that many of my so called friends were assigned to be my friends. I don't believe that they really cared to be a true friend. Now, I'm discovering what a true friend is in Christ and I feel genuine love from these friends who HONESTLY care. They pray for me and listen to me. They don't get into my personal space (my home. They invite me to lunch not because it's the end of the month and time is running out but because they want to be with me.

For 10 yrs. I had the same home teacher and it hurt me when one day I discovered that he didn't even know the names of my children. Another experience was when my friend ( I truly believed that she was because my heart was in a different place than hers) was taken off my visiting teachers list because I admitted that I wasn't teacher her a lesson. I continued to try to embrace her and be her friend but she didn't respond to my phone calls or e-mail so u see it's all based around an assignment of service that morgs believe will get them closer to the highest kingdom. Really it's a very big BS trip.

Mormonism stands in the developmental world as a basic blue meme. You can find more information as to the development of these concepts from an understanding of spiral dynamics which shows how societies, cultures, people develop. Mormonism is really a movement from the red meme to the blue meme... here are some charachteristics of a Blue meme world view (value structure).

BLUE – The Law & Order, Higher Truth, Absolutistic Value Structure
Blue Primary Characteristics:
C Home of the Mythical Self.
C New sources of wisdom and truth are revealed. Moses’ delivery of the Ten Commandments from Mt. Sinai signaled
the arrival of Blue. Such absolute “thou shalts” and “thou shalt nots” are necessary to introduce order, discipline,
meaning, and purpose into the human evolutionary stream.
C A single Higher Truth, Power, or Authority rules the Universe, sets human destiny and limitations, prescribes what is
“right” and “wrong,” and gives meaning and direction to human existence. There is a grand design behind existence
and a purpose to everything, though mortals may not comprehend it.
C Hierarchical structures. The Absolute Authority (God, the Bible, the Commander in Chief, etc.) sits at the pinnacle and
speaks to a lesser authority, who in turn speaks to those further down the chain of command.
C Following the divinely appointed pathway ties me to something greater than myself (a cause, belief, tradition,
organization, or movement).
C Black and white, polarized thinking.
C Good opposes evil in an ongoing battle for dominion.
C Blue ideologues have complete faith in their beliefs and in the inevitable victory of their version of The Truth.
C There is an absolute belief in one right way, and unquestioned obedience to authority.
C Understanding and tolerance are limited. There are no gray areas or compromises among true believers.
C Any “non-system” approach is: A) wrong by definition, B) probably sinful, and C) may have been introduced solely as
a test of one’s faith.
C With Blue comes written language. This enables knowledge to be recorded in enduring form across generations.
Doctrines are spelled out in “The Book”. Scripture is interpreted literally, verbatim. Written texts become sacred (the
Torah, The Bible, The Koran, etc.).
C Behavioral freedom is restricted. The Higher Authority is always watching us. Ultimate rewards await those who do
what is right, and woe unto everyone else. Spontaneity yields to compliance, keeping Red impulses firmly in check by
obeying higher orders.
C Codes of morality and conduct are based on eternal, absolute principles. Impulsivity is controlled through guilt. One
conforms out of fear of punishment, shunning, or excommunication.
C Too much freedom and a lack of clear direction are experienced as stressful.
C One’s sense of personal worth comes from evaluations made by outside authorities.
C Religious conversions – wiping the slate clean and being born again with a new mission and purpose in life.
C Satisfaction is found in doing one’s duty. Law and discipline build character and moral fiber.
C Righteous living produces stability now and guarantees a future reward. People willingly sacrifice present desires in
the sure knowledge that they will be rewarded with something wonderful in the future.
C Benefits perceived as unearned produce guilt.
C To the question, “Haven’t we heard this before?” comes the response, “Yes, and it will be good for you to hear it
again.”
C One’s close associates must share the same beliefs, which may include both religion and politics. Friendships and
networking happen among inner circles of believers. However, when conflicts break about among inner circle
members, they may be vicious. Even family members may never speak to one another again.
C One’s heritage is an extension of a time line that is to be passed on to future generations.
C Most people need a Blue structure in their lives (be it Christian, Confucian, or something secular) that they can anchor
their lives to. Young people flounder when they are not able to find a Blue anchor for their lives.
Blue In Societies:
C Politics are characterized by fascism, nationalism, shared ideologies, and theocracies.
C Everyone is expected to know their place and keep to it, to not fraternize with one’s betters, to make the most of what
has been allotted to then, and to be thankful for it.
C Everyone sacrifices for the common good. People gladly submit to authoritarianism to “get the trains running on time
again.” Overt self-interest is wrong and jeopardizes one’s place among the fellowship of believers.
8
Blue At Its Best:
C Brings stability to the lawless chaos of Red.
C Finding happiness in service to others. Sharing, charity, and taking care of one’s fellows in times of trouble.
C Produces people with peace of mind, a clear hope for the future, and abiding faith that there is meaning and purpose
in life.
C Carries through on responsibilities and commitments. People who are “the salt of the earth.”
Blue At It’s Worst:
C Rigid, dogmatic, and closed minded.
C Self-righteous and judgmental.
C Stern task-masters who are never satisfied with less than perfection. Finding fault takes precedence over recognizing
the good. Children are never allowed to be good enough.
Where Blue is Seen:
C A child’s first experimentations with right and wrong, fair and unfair, sharing equally, and resolving conflicts with the
aid of an authority (parent or teacher).
C Attempts to go “back to basics” and restore those traditional values and morals that made us great in the past.
C Spare the rod and spoil the child.
C Religious fundamentalism in all its forms: Hasidic Judaism, Nation of Islam educational system, Islamic Jihads,
Christian fundamentalism, the Amish, the Moral Majority.
C Fanatical atheism.
C Frank Capra’s It’s a Wonderful Life, Garrison Keillor’s Lake Wobegon, Andy Taylor’s Mayberry.
C Puritan America.
C The military, patriotism, codes of chivalry and honor.
C The Salvation Army.
C Boy and Girl Scouts.
C Robert’s Rules of Order.
C Alcoholics Anonymous.
Blue Population & Power:
C 40% of the people in the world, 30% of the power in the world.
Growth: What Moves People from Blue to Orange:
C People begin to seek freedom from the limitations that accompany faith in the One True Doctrine, or from the
restraints imposed by relationships with other true believers. They may become increasingly angry and resentful over
limitations imposed on their personal freedom.
C “I’m tired of being ‘right.’ I just want to be happy.”
C There is an initial cautious, inoffensive, and controlled movement back toward independent thinking. It becomes
possible to deviate from the One Truth, as long as one remains in close proximity to it.
C True believers begin to voice quiet uncertainty among some of their peers. One may be respectful of authority when it
is present, but critical when it is not.
C The ability to distinguish among different versions of the truth emerges. Questions arise about exactly where truth
resides, and who is authorized to interpret it. Truth becomes open to the masses, not just a privileged priestly
hierarchy.
C Doubts about the infallibility of authority allow for reinterpretation of the truth to better fit the “real world”.
C God wants us to use the brains he gave us, not just blindly obey.
C Real improvements begin to seem possible through independent thinking and a little less restriction from authority.
The trains don’t have to just run on time; they can be made to run faster, too. Believers begin discussing reforms they
would like to implement.
C We come to believe that we ourselves are a better authority than the established authority. Newly emerging autonomy
layered over a Blue belief in absolute authority can lead to a strong sense of our own total rightness.
C People search out the failings of established authorities, whose feet turn out to be made of clay. Whistle blowers
appear. The misdeeds of those in authority are publicly reported.
9
C Self-made martyrs appear who need to be punished by the system so they can be reborn even stronger. By reacting
against these critics, Blue establishes their legitimacy. If martyrs are ignored, they will find a way to somehow be
punished or made victims of the authority.
C One begins to accept that overt rejection of authority will cost them the support of those who still believe in it.
C Always tell the truth, but the whole truth need not always be told.

I know, I can't understand. When I was a young adult, I seldon attended the dances because no one ever offered a ride, even though a few of the girls were near neighbours. I only went if I took the bus to the dance and left by 10:30pm to take the bus back home.

Once I turned 18 and attended a singles ward, I had girls that would drive by and see me walking to the chapel in -40C winter (in Canada), and wave but not stop their (empty) car and offer a ride.

On the other hand, my best friend who was not a mormom and lived in a small town 50 km from me, would come and pick me up so we could go out, then drive me home before she went home herself.

I eventually purchased a car of my own, and drove myself all over the place, but growing up in Canada, my family was poor since we relocated from Brasil and my father's degree was not recognized. So my father had to go back to university to get his engineering equivalent and my parents did cleaning jobs to support us. I waitressed and cleaned homes with them as well during times I was not in school.

I don't know why no one ever extended friendship. I am not sure if it was because we were poor. We were always clean, our home was simple but spotlessly clean. We were friendly. I don't know if it was jealousy on the part of the girls. My sister and I were very beautiful when we were younger. The guys were always nice, but the girls kept away.

Not sure why, but I always clearly saw that all my non member friends were very genuine, while in the church I got no friendship at all, unless I was someone's project or assignment.

Maybe it was that "dirty and dark" South American blood? Serious. Some people think this way. Like my BIL who didn't think it was good for his son to marry and Asian girl. "the bretheren counseled against mixed marriages".

The blue meme model fits perfectly. I think it amplifies some of the theories in "Patterns of Culture" by Ruth Benedict (seminal sociology book from late 30's). She said behaviors tend to cluster. Ironically, the Zuni Indians have a blue meme culture with some of the same characteristics/initiations as Mormonism.

Mormons are self-involved with endless lists and points to earn. Young people are told to Remember Who They Are, meaning the inflation of the ego, rather than what Christ taught, which was Remember the Poor.

Big difference. When I left Mormonism, normal compassion re-emerged. There was no bishop or VT responsible for helping--it was up to me to check on neighbors and offer rides. So much better. No one wants a plastic-smiling "assigned" friend. We know the difference.

The other point is that the church is imitating the "fruit" of the spirit as spelled out in the BIble. If you believe in Christ, you will do these things, if you have the Holy SPirit, that is. So the church just assigns people to display the fruit. Like fake "spontaneous" testimony-bearing. Let's fake everything for the sake of the growth of the church. We don't care if it crushes compassion inside you--you're already a 'bot.

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