"The man who has been an apostle the longest is the president of the Church, and by inspiration he selects two other apostles as counselors."
http://beta-newsroom.lds.org/topic/first-presidency

russell nelson lied to us when he came and visited my mission in norway and told us that the 12 choose a new prophet by gathering together and praying about it and the answer has always been unanimous as to who should be the next prophet. what a load of $hit.

and then they still lie about being special witnesses of jesus christ:
"Members of the First Presidency are special witnesses of Jesus Christ, called to teach and testify of Him throughout the world."

http://scriptures.lds.org/en/dc/107/23#23 :
"The twelve traveling councilors are called to be the Twelve Apostles, or special witnesses of ***the name of*** Christ in all the world"

and none of them have ever given a special witness of jesus christ either!:
http://truthundertherazor.blogspot.com/2010/03/have-lds-apostles-and-prophets-seen.html



Edited 3 time(s). Last edit at 11/09/2010 11:36AM by Nick Humphrey.

...because the church is owned by the Corporation of the President, which is a corporation sole, with the church president being the only officer/shareholder, rules of succession already state the most senior apostle becomes the next president. So it's predetermined by law, not inspiration. If God has a hand in it, it's by knocking off any apostle he doesn't want to be president.

http://www.xmission.com/~research/central/chorg3.htm
"
But in the event of death or resignation from office of the President of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, or in the event of a vacancy in that office from any cause, ***the President or Acting President of the Quorum of the Twelve Apostles of said Church, or one of the members of said Quorum thereunto designated by that Quorum***, shall, pending the installation of a successor President of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, be the corporation sole under these articles,
"

Genetics + Fate = Will of God

How were the original apostles chosen? Peter, when replacing Judas, said that to qualify to be a member of the Twelve one had to have (1) witnessed the baptism of Jesus and his entire ministry and (2) to have witnessed the crucifixition, resurrection and ascension of Jesus. Once they found the appropriately qualified members they then choose the man, not by revelation, but by drawing straws! This also explains why the Quorum of the Twelve did not perpetuate itself very long.

Acts 1:21-26
21Wherefore of these men which have companied with us all the time that the Lord Jesus went in and out among us,

22Beginning from the baptism of John, unto that same day that he was taken up from us, must one be ordained to be a witness with us of his resurrection.

23And they appointed two, Joseph called Barsabas, who was surnamed Justus, and Matthias.

24And they prayed, and said, Thou, Lord, which knowest the hearts of all men, shew whether of these two thou hast chosen,

25That he may take part of this ministry and apostleship, from which Judas by transgression fell, that he might go to his own place.

26And they gave forth their lots; and the lot fell upon Matthias; and he was numbered with the eleven apostles.

I wonder if the modern church also casts lots like the apostles of old or do they have another equally definitive way to discern God's will.

LDS General Authorities also choose who is to speak by casting lots, just like the Roman Soldiers at Jesus' crucifixion.

D&C 102:12 - Whenever a high council of the church of Christ is regularly organized, according to the foregoing pattern, it shall be the duty of the twelve councilors to cast lots by numbers, and thereby ascertain who of the twelve shall speak first, commencing with number one and so in succession to number twelve.

Revelation and Inspiration may ass!!! The same goes for reading Conference talks from teleprompters!

Mark 13:11 But when they shall lead you, and deliver you up, take no thought beforehand what ye shall speak, neither do ye premeditate: but whatsoever shall be given you in that hour, that speak ye: for it is not ye that speak, but the Holy Ghost.
D&C 84:85 Neither take ye thought beforehand what ye shall say; but treasure up in your minds continually the words of life, and it shall be given you in the very hour that portion that shall be meted unto every man.

That is information that has been out there but forgotten. In the Reed Smoot hearings Pres. Joseph F Smith admitted that the apostles are not called by any kind of revelation and it was by simple vote. And the prophet is by tradition the senior apostle.

That was in front of a senate hearing, but not something you hear in sunday school...lol

http://www.archive.org/details/proceedingsbefor01unitrich

yeah so i guess the more important question now is how do the apostles get chosen today? just a list of candidates and the current apostles vote on them?
what qualifications do they look for?



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 11/11/2010 05:33AM by Nick Humphrey.

i found the answer:
http://www.archive.org/details/proceedingsbefor01unitrich
(page 91)
Senator McCoMAS. I should like to ask one question. You say that the councilors are appointed by the president of the church.
How are the apostles selected?
Mr. SMITH. In Ihe first place they were chosen by revelation. The council of the apostles have had a voice ever since in the selection of their successors.
Senator McCoMAS. Had a voice?
Mr. SMITH. Yes, sir.
Senator McCoMAS. Have they had the election of their successors to perpetuate the body of apostles since the first revelation?
Mr. SMITH. I do not know that I understand your question.
Senator McCoMAS. You say the first apostles were selected in accordance with revelations.
Mr. SMITH. Yes, sir.
Senator McCoMAS. Revelations to whom?
Mr. SMITH. To Joseph Smith.

(page 92)
Senator McCoMAS. And the twelve apostles were then first named?
Mr. SMITH. Yes, sir.
Senator McCoMAS. When vacancies occurred thereafter, by what body were the vacancies in the twelve apostles filled?
Mr. SMITH. Perhaps I may say in this way: Chosen by the body, the twelve themselves, by and with the consent and approval of the first presidency.
Senator HOAB. Was there a revelation in regard to each of them?
Mr. SMITH. No, sir; not in regard to each of them. Do you mean in the beginning?
Senator HOAR. I understand you to say that the original twelve apostles were selected by revelation?
Mr. SMITH. Yes, sir.
Senator HOAR. Through Joseph Smith ?
Mr. SMITH. Yes, sir; that is right.
Senator HOAR. Is there any revelation in regard to the subsequent ones?
Mr. SMITH. No, sir; it has been the choice of the body.
Senator McCoMAS. Then the apostles are perpetuated in succession by their own act and the approval of the first presidency?
Mr. SMITH. That is right.

Senator BAILEY, who selects the first president?
Mr. SMITH. The first presidency was chosen in the same way. They
are elected--
Senator BAILEY. I believe the presidency consists of the president and two councilors.
Mr. SMITH. That is right.
Senator BAILEY. I do not refer to the councilors. You have already said that the president chooses or designates them. Who chooses or elects the president? For instance, who elected you to your present position?
Mr. SMITH. 1 was nominated by the twelve apostles and submitted to the whole church and sustained by the whole church.
Mr. WORTHINGTON. Explain what you mean by the word "sustained" in that technical sense.
Mr. SMITH. That is, voted upon.
Senator BAILEY. I understand that. As a matter of fact, the apostles nominate the president and the church elects him.
Do I understand that to be the case?
Mr. SMITH. Well, yes, sir; that has been the case. And then, again, the senior apostle, through custom of the church since the death of Joseph Smith, has been recognized on the death of the president as the legitimate successor to the president.
Senator BAILEY. It is a question of succession rather than of election?
Mr. SMITH. Yes, sir.



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 11/11/2010 06:27AM by Nick Humphrey.

1. Fills whatever need they have. (Another lawyer for legal aspects of the cult, or a big business executive for running a corporation.)

2. Biggest brown-noser from the time they went on their mission to the time they are considered (about 30-40 years of service to the Cult minimum).

3. No bad marks on their permanent record kept by the Cult Gestapo. Must have demonstrated total loyalty to the Cult for a minimum 30 years.

4. Bonus points for being related (or wife related) to a current member of the 12, and descended from pioneer polygamous stock.

scarecrowfromoz Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> 4. Bonus points for being related (or wife
> related) to a current member of the 12, and
> descended from pioneer polygamous stock.

i wonder if we could find out how many of them qualify here?

Why anyone believes inspiration or revelation ever touches any of these political sharks is beyond me.

I remember understanding how the process worked, and that it was not selection from god. It was just climbing the ranks when the prophet died. And, I was a good little Molly.

...or is any apostasy the prophet wishes to embrace the new orthodoxy and any who do not embrace it the apostates?

Don't you remember? The Lard will not allow the president of the church to lead the people astray...except where polygamy is involved, or in determining which races are allowed to get the priesthood.

I guess they read where BY excommunicated those who didn't vote for him LOL

I knew that during my HS seminary days in the mid 70s. In the late 70s, an "ascension to the presidency" pamphlet was available to us to give to investigators - it explained it all.

And I've heard the "all the 12 in agreement story," but it applies to the pre-determined leader, so all were simply praying for the opportunity to rubber-stamp.

However... one of the complaints of us at my age is about how the church is different today than years ago, so it wouldn't surprise me if they have recently suppressed knowledge of the process.

So the Church was only worth 1.5 million in 1973? Where did the rest of the money go Harold? Or where you lying in the official document?

by a game of "Ink a Dink a Bottle of Ink"