I've gotten some really good advice here before, so although I haven't posted in a while, I'm going to ask a really personal question because I need some help.

Background: I left the church not very long after we got married. I thought I could remain a doubting member, but it turned out I couldn't be happy that way. I still go to church with her though, and I'm still technically a member who follows most standards (I haven't drunk alcohol yet, for example). We've been married a little over a year now, but we're not going to have kids until our marriage is more solid.

So here's part of the problem: She said once that she felt like I was thinking about other girls when we had sex, and I admitted that I did sometimes think about other girls. Honestly, it's more often than not. I previously posted (anonymously) about struggling with her fervent demand that I not look at pornography, and I've done well at meeting that request. I haven't looked for several months.

However, she also hates it when I privately masturbate, and I sometimes do it out of sexual frustration. Sex often ends up not working for us. She's often not in the mood, and because it often doesn't work, I secretly prefer to just masturbate to my own fantasies. I think a major part of the problem is that she sometimes asks what I'm thinking about, and if I'm thinking about someone else, I have to make something up. It makes me paranoid and her suspicious. I'm sure sometimes my made-up answers aren't convincing, and that's part of the reason it doesn't work. Sometimes I do it because I'm not getting turned on, and unless I get turned on, she would feel bad. Although she's very good looking, she's not confident in herself. I'm not sure why I don't always get turned on just thinking about her.

So here's my question: Is it acceptable to fantasize about other women while having sex with your wife? Is it acceptable for her to ask about it, or should she have respected my privacy?

I really worry that we'll never have a mutually satisfying sexual relationship because of things like this. She hates the thought of me even thinking of anyone else (and especially masturbating to it), but I have a hard time only ever thinking of her.

I know it's a very personal question, but I really need some feedback. Thank you so much for helping me with this.

think about other girls.

You sound like a young couple so here's my advice.

Yes men think about other women. Usually if you have a healthy sex life you don't during sex...Anyway...NEVER admit to your young wife with low self esteem that you think about other women...ever......



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 09/15/2011 12:18PM by Susan I/S.

And maybe she needs to be called out on that.

Maybe but she won't admit it...

It sounds like her conditioning as a good mormon wife is getting in the way....

You can think of other women without admitting it.

If I was Ifrequent Poster...I'd say..."I'm thinking of you dear...naked on the beach."....



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 09/15/2011 12:18PM by Susan I/S.

it sounds like the problems here are much deeper, and the O/P isn't going to solve those issues by deceiving his wife.

They need counseling. Serious counseling.

Except I doubt she fantasizes about other men. Although she does occasionally dream about them...

One thing I should probably mention is that she feels entitled to know what I'm fantasizing about. She doesn't think it should be private.

infrequent poster Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Except I doubt she fantasizes about other men.
> Although she does occasionally dream about
> them...
>
> One thing I should probably mention is that she
> feels entitled to know what I'm fantasizing about.
> She doesn't think it should be private.

ok...make something up that has her in the fantasy...

What does she actually fantasize about???

Like others have mentioned...you may need counseling...NON RELIGIOUS counseling....

If you believe otherwise, you are just as immature and naive as she is. I hope you can handle the reality of her having fantasies that don't involve you...

No, I'm quite sure she doesn't fantasize about other men. She feels strongly that it's wrong. I think that's why she has a hard time getting turned on sometimes. I'd encourage her to if I didn't know she would be abhorred by it.

Wow, some people are so quick to stereotype, lol... think about some of the most brainwashed TBM Mollies you know... they don't allow themselves to think about that kind of stuff! I know, cuz I was there myself once. We basically go flagellate ourselves with a whip if we ever do slip up, and that trains us to never let it happen again.

I didn't fantasize about anyone other than my DH for the first 2 years of marriage. If he had been able to keep up with me sexually, that probably would have continued for many more years.

I wonder if it would help her get aroused if you took a long time for foreplay by just whispering in her ear the things you are thinking about doing to her. Maybe write a creative story (like the erotica chick lit that is such a hot seller) and read it to her? You could totally personalize it by talking about one of your favorite places, or a certain dress she wears that you like, etc. Then she not only knows that you are thinking about her and find her attractive, but maybe it helps get her in the mood? Buy some scented massage lotions and spend a while just rubbing it in? Put on some music and candlelight and dance? I don't know her so can't tell what her triggers are, but you'll find something.

Sounds like it's time to visit a sex counselor. Sounds like you're sexually incompatible and need advice from a professional. And by professional, I don't mean a bishop or an LDS therapist who will likely screw things up even more for you.

> So here's my question: Is it acceptable to
> fantasize about other women while having sex with
> your wife? Is it acceptable for her to ask about
> it, or should she have respected my privacy?

Yes it is, but your mistake was that when she asked you told her that you do fantasize about other women. Now every time she has sex with you she will assume you are thinking about other women.

What do you say when she asks "Do these jeans make me look fat?"

Just curious.

She makes comments kind of like that often. I, of course, tell her she's very skinny and beautiful, and I love how she looks.

That probably was a mistake, but I'm a bad liar so when I got called out, I fessed up.

I'm answering the question you SHOULD have asked - GET OUT OF THAT MARRIAGE!!

You have been married for barely a year and look at the mess you are in.

With problems of such magnitude right at the start, how do you see this getting better?

Where do you see yourself 20 years from now?

Will you still be begging for sex, with your wife policing you for pornography, creating problems where none exist?

Find a more compatible mate!

he apparently has little to no clue about women or relationships, and that he appears to prefer masturbation and fantasy over actual sexual encounters (at least with his wife), do you really think things will get significantly better for him simply by dumping his wife and moving on the next woman? Ultimately his present relationship may not work but there are deeper issues going on here that he should address and get figured out before he moves on to another woman and expects her to understand him in a way he does not understand himself.

OP should consider counseling.

Glo, it's possible that you might be right. I just have to feel like I've really given it my best before I really consider that option.

J. Chan, I think I know a little more than you give me credit for. I've usually had very healthy relationships prior to this one. Me leaving the church has lead to problems, and differing sexual expectations and opinions on sexual appropriateness that is what I'm asking about.

Counseling may be a good idea though.

could possibly care less than I do. Do you feel that you are capable of finding a more compatible partner? If so, why? And, if so, why did you marry this particular woman? I'm asking because I'm curious.

I diagree with Glo. It's more typical for a man to have a higher sex drive than women - I know there are exceptions. But what I'm saying is that this is a common occurrence. In such situations some men turn to affairs, others turn to masturbation, porn and fantasies. I highly recommend the latter.

It's natural for her to feel entitled to know about your fantasies, masturbation and porn viewing. You are also entitled to not tell her. These things don't destroy marriages (unless it's a true porn addiction, which is pretty severe).

You can have your privacy and still have a successful marriage. She doesn't have to know everything - unless you cheat on her.

If I was to insist that porn is private and not her business, it would end the marriage. I do appreciate you voicing your opinion though that I'm entitled to think whatever I want, that makes sense to me.

infrequent poster Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
However, she also hates it when I privately
> masturbate, and I sometimes do it out of sexual
> frustration.

If you do it privately how does she know? Just curious...

I agree with Hela and Itz. You have some issues to work out with a councelor.

She's just said that she hates it. I do sometimes tell her when I've done it and feel guilty about it. Maybe the guilt is residual from Mormonism, and I feel the need to confess. Maybe I'm too honest... I don't know.

can there be such a thing??? i would like to think not....she is asking you about the masturbation and fantasies why??
i like that you are thruthful and its hard for you to lie! i think you should try and work it out....she is not in her prime yet.... y'all under 25 i assume..... and you are in your prime..... so there will be differences in sex drive and views on it..... are you making sure there is LOts of "prep" time before the actual consummation?? that is the key to happiness!! her happiness will be your happiness..... try looking at and exploring her body SLOWLY!! lights on and all....especially the way you describe her.... get therapy from a sex therapist if you still have problems..... get help...also helping around the house and doing things for her you dont normally do has been shown to INCREASE her desire!! YEAH BABY YEAH!!!

Marriage can be a wonderful union if three key components are in place to have a solid foundation:

1) Healthy intimacy and Sexual Relationship
2) Positive friendship and companionship
3) Mutual Committment

I got that from a Jewish Rabii awhile back, and I agree with it. Of course there are other things that are important, but perhaps those are the most important. You decide.

Hey, all us guys say and do insensitive things in a marriage. Nobody's perfect. It really all boils down to what you want with her. Do you want a committed healthy relationship with her? Do you love her? If you answer affirmative, then you need to go into some major damage control right now buddy.

You hurt her feelings when you responded "yes" to her question. She probably is insecure about her body, her image, her beauty, and her self worth now. As a husband, you have got to be her best friend. You must tell her everyday that she is the most beautiful woman in the world - to you. I'm always telling my wife things like that because ITS TRUE AND SHE NEEDS TO HEAR IT FROM ME. Your wife needs to hear that everyday from you. Sex ain't everything. If you have a good woman who puts up with your sorry ass - well you got something there. My wife puts up with me and all my short comings. Let me give you a few examples of what I say to her, routinely, "I love that skirt on you, it really makes you look skinny", "wow, you look so smoking hot right now, OMG", "I love the way that sweater fits you, I mean Wow" or "How do you keep your legs and but looking so firm and sexy honey, are you exercising?" Recently I went to a wedding for a coworker. My wife simply radiated beauty. She was glowing. She had on a sexy black dress on, her makeup was perfect, hair was beautiful, nails were done..and I complimented her incessantly. On the ride home, I told her sincerely that I thought she was the most beautiful woman at the wedding.

Dude. Take it from me. I've been at this a long time. What you're doing is not working. You gotta do better. You can either be right or you can be happy.

4 things you need to do immediately for damage control:
1) Flowers and a sincere apology
2) Stop letting her now your are looking at porn. Focus on her.
3) Start complimenting her sincerely, everyday, and forever
4) If this doesn't improve, see a sex counselor

Anon10, you have some good advice, but I want to clarify the situation a bit for you.

I admitted to fantasizing months ago, not recently. And I haven't looked at porn for months either. I do try and compliment her often, but I could definitely do better. I'll try that. Thank you for your comments.

First of all, it's your mind. You are free to think about things you want/need to without feeling bad about it. I'm pretty certain that most people fantasize, male and female, when doing the nasty. It's normal.

Sometimes partners are secure enough to talk to each other about it--it might even help turn each other on. But, this it's not every relationship that can handle this kind of openness.

Obviously, your wife is insecure, unrealistic about sex, and intrusive when you don't want her to be. So, DON'T tell her what you are thinking. You might put the responsibility back on her. When she asks, try saying something like, "Why do you ask? Are you thinking about someone else." She likely is, especially if it comes to mind, even if she won't admit it.

You can imagine how messed up the Mormon thinking of sex is--it's going on with her. You need to be aware of her needs, and if she can only understand sex in a certain context without having a nervous breakdown, then don't let her go there.

It's also none of her business if you wank it. Do not tell her this if it will blow her mind! It is not fair to her. She has a naive concept of the world, not completely her fault, and she might not be able to accept things for a while--you've only been married one year!

and yes I've had sex with all kinds of women (figuratively). I've had sex with my office girls (figuratively). And I've had sex with movie stars (figuratively). The right advice was to lie and say you don't think about other women. Kinda weird that she asked - maybe a bit insecure? She's gotta understand that men's brains aren't wired the same and that sex to you isn't the same as sex to her. And what turns you on isn't always the same as what gets her off. A study in Denmark showed that just before climax women have all kinds of neurons firing all over their brain. In men, neurons fire in just one place - the pleasure center.

You have described the symptoms of underlying issues in your marriage. Please see a counselor (preferably with your wife, but otherwise without) so that these issues can be resolved.

Seek therapy, both of you!

You need an automatic answer. So you are always thinking about your honeymoon when she asks. Or how hot she looked on your first date, etc. Pick an occasion she remembers and THAT'S what you're fantasizing about, no matter what else was really on your mind.

If you're a little evil like me, you'll call it your ultimate sexual experience, leaving her thinking perhaps she needs to step up her game and blow your mind to give you more fantasies to choose from.

How old is your wife and do you think she look sexy .AND YES SEE A COUNSELOR NOW.

I suspect it's always happened and I suspect it will happen as long as the species survives. Your wife may uncomfortable with the idea that her husband has sexual fantasies that include other women but that isn't going to change a million years of evolution.

The advice to lie to her and deny it is probably the easiest way to maintain some peace in the marriage. I think it would be better if your relationship grew to the point where some reality could be introduced and both partners are OK with that reality.

My wife had a similar fit over masturbation when I left the church. She felt like it was the root of all of our problems and that if I just stopped we could go back to the closeness we had with each other prior to my apostasy. Once I explained that the big M had been part of my life since I was 12 and had also been part of my life all through our marriage her eyes opened up a bit and now she doesn't care.

Stunted

www.sexinfo101.com

http://www.sexinfo101.com/forum/married-long-term-relationships/22724-body-worship-how-eek.html

In spite of what you may read in books of fiction claiming to be straight from the mouth of God, lusting after a woman is not the same as committing adultery. All (straight) guys have sexual thoughts about women other than their wife. Masturbation is not really a problem unless it makes it so you can't "perform" with your wife. Most of your problems arise from her Mormon beliefs about being held accountable, and punished for your thoughts, and her being brainwashed into thinking that masturbation is abnormal.

Since you can't enlighten her overnight, (and may never) the advice of many above to not share all your thoughts is good advice.

Also,

Trying not to think about other women while you have sex is like trying not to think about pink elephants. The harder you try, the more you do it. If you don't worry about it when it happens, it will happen a lot less.

Not to be the devil's advocate here, but I do have a different p.o.v. to offer... I'm the apostate who has sexual fantasies because DH has very little drive (and almost zero interest in me at all since I told him I'm no longer TBM).

Counseling? Yeah, great advice BUT sometimes the spouse just refuses to go, especially if it's a sex therapist or a non-member therapist. This has been my case, so what can you do? You can try to go on your own but it's difficult when only one of you is working on the marriage.

If she's TBM, chances are she will never get past the 'horror' of fantasies / masturbation / porn, etc. Just do it in secret because if you aren't getting some kind of release, you will begin to really resent her and then your relationship really goes to hell. Trust me on this!

You're gonna have to build up those lying skills. I'm not advocating telling real lies but little white ones to save your marriage are okay in my book. I can totally get how seeing her in nothing less than garments is a turn-off, but never tell her you're thinking about anyone other than her. If you're fantasizing about Heidi Klum on a beach, sub your wife's name instead when she asks. "Honey, I'm thinking about whisking you away to our own private beach..." Make sure you look her in the eyes and smile while you do this - reach out and touch her, take her hand, rub her shoulder. Body action is louder than words.

I recently heard about a study that concluded men and women ask different questions of their cheating spouses when they find out. The majority of women want to know if he's in love with the other woman; the majority of men want to know about the quality and quantity of sex involved. In other words, women fixate on the emotional attachments, so your wife needs to know you love and adore her and are totally committed to her.

My two cents...



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 09/15/2011 01:37PM by AngelCowgirl.

I think your perspective is very interesting. To be honest, I sometimes do resent her because I don't get the release I wish I was getting. Although I definitely can't ever look at porn, because if I did she'd end the marriage (and I'm a bad liar about things I feel guilty about), maybe I could justify some other things and feel okay about keeping it private :)

I'll really have to think about whether I'm ready to lie to her face during sex. It's kind of against my nature, but in the long term, if we can't reach a better situation than where we're at now, the relationship isn't worth it to me. So maybe that's what I should do.

The funny thing is, I mentioned a similar study to her once, and she said she'd be more concerned about the sex, while I'd actually be more concerned about the emotional attachment. Weird, huh? For some reason she takes sex really seriously.

Thanks for your comments.

> I'll really have to think about whether I'm ready
> to lie to her face during sex.

She asks you these things DURING sex? No wonder you can't get the "release".

Your wife sounds extremely repressed and insecure...and like the majority of young Mormon brides. Is it just me or are the most good looking women usually the most insecure? I don't think she can handle honesty from you, I'm confident all she hears is, "you're not pretty enough, you're not sexy enough, you're not satisfying in bed". And she's probably paralyzed by the thought that she will loose you because of it. She's got to get a clue, get some self worth, and learn to enjoy herself in bed...AND stop asking questions that she doesn't want the answers to. I do agree that you should compliment her often, but it's up to her to find and fix the deep root of her feeling of inferiority.

Good luck to you both.

I think I agree with you, but me leaving the church kind of makes me seem like I'm in the morally inferior position (even though I'm really not), so it makes it uncomfortable for me to dispense that kind of advice. So how do I get her to try and build her own self-esteem? I give many compliments, but she doesn't really listen to them.

Sometimes it seems like it will be impossible to get her to have more realistic views about sex, and not let the kinds of things discussed above affect her self-esteem. It's a tough situation.

Thanks for the good wishes.

Yes, I'm sure to her you are the morally inferior one. I think she sees your masturbation as a perversion making the blow to her psyche that much more painful. She has probably convinced her self that if you have to resort to something as drastic as that she must really be repulsive. How do you get her to try to build her own self esteem? Woah, that's a hard one. That may be out of your hands. I wish I had answers for you. You may feel inclined to mention at the right moment in a very safe and non threatening way that her level of self confidence doesn't match the person that she is, and then list all the great things about her physically, emotionally and intellectually and say that sometimes it makes you wonder, because it really doesn't add up. Maybe that will start her thinking.

I feel for you.

Okay. You're newlyweds, and if one or both of you kept the so-called standards of TSCC there is a lot to get through.

For her,especially if she's young,there's the idea that she is "used goods" or a "licked cupcake." Especially if you have left the church. She thought she married someone faithful to TSCC, or at least who had the potential to be. When my DH left TSCC before I did it was very hard for me to get in the right place mentally to have sex. I seriously considered divorce. I thought I was entitled to a faithful LDS man who would bring me happiness by doing what the church told him to regardless of how awesome the husband I had was. I can only imagine how much worse it would have been if my husband had told me that he was doing things the church considers unacceptable.

Combined with inexperience or discomfort, she may feel like a failure. Especially if you told her once you think about other women sometimes.

However there is good news. She is still with you. You have a chance to work on this. My suggestion? Be the best damn husband you can be. From this moment on. We're talking flowers, consideration, and even buying her tampons if she needs. You sacrifice for her and she will notice. Tell her you love her. Kiss her every day. Read The 5 Love Languages: The Secret to Love That Lasts by Gary Chapman and learn to speak her love language fluently. Offer to read it with her. She might like that.

Also, for a little when-she's-at-her-meetings reading, Pick up Ian Kerner's "She comes first." Seriously.

I also wouldn't rule out counseling as well if some of these things don't work. :-)

Good luck!

she's not going to change, with or without counselling.

fuck when it comes to sexuality. (Are you reading Shannon?)

For helamonster (I believe), I didn't fantasize about having sex with other men while having sex with my husband (or now my boyfriend)--except once when I knew my marriage was over and he decided he wanted to have sex. It was not a pleasant experience--and I fantasized about my old boyfriend (now my present boyfriend). Shocked me as I never fantasize about someone else.

I contribute it almost exclusively to my mormon upbringing.

A woman who thinks about sex, likes sex, etc., etc., etc., is a slut. We were only to "service" our husbands as they have a higher sex drive and if they didn't, they wouldn't feel the need to get married.

I start reading things like this thread and it just blows my mind--the mind fuck is beyond comprehension.

I agree with others--you both need therapy and, personally, I don't see it ever getting better as long as she is mormon and maybe not even if she left the church. Luckily, my experiences have allowed me to shed MOST of the insanity, but not all.

And like angelcowgirl said--to me, I told my gay husband that he could have all the sex he wanted, but I requested that he not fall in love with anyone else (talk about an impossible request). He did.

In my own experience, I may not fantasize about having sex with other men, but I still have feelings for a few other men who I wished I could have married. I don't really think about it in terms of "sex" but more in how they would fulfill me emotionally.

I found it very shocking that I am a sexual being as I was taught for most of my life that I wasn't or shouldn't be.

For that reason, I doubt your wife is going to change AT ALL.

Do you want to work this out with her?

Keep the porn secret, and the fantasizing secret. She doesn't need to know, if she can't have a mature conversation with you about it.