Now that I am out of the church I have been thinking of things in a whole new way. While I was in church the goal was always to get married in the temple. Now I am not sure if I even want to get married. I look at my siblings lives and they are so busy with kids and church. I do not want to trade places with them at all! Plus I hear the world might be having a population problem so maybe I am not being selfish by not having any kids. I really wouldn't trade places with my bros because all I see them is getting bossed around by their wives and my Dad gets bossed around by his wife as well. I don't know I don't think marriage is what it is cut out to be from my observation. Plus people that are in a marriage will never tell you it sucks.

Then again sometimes I think to myself that I don't want to die alone and maybe having kids would be fun.

Before I met my wife I could not imagine myself ever getting married. After I met, dated and grew to love her, I couldn't imagine myself not being married to her. I'm not trying to fill your head with "match made in heaven" crap, but when you find the right one, you will know. Until then, have a good time, and don't compromise, just to "not be alone".

You can have fun with them, but over all....it's a lifetime of work and worry and love. Love keeps us from strangling them when they're teens.

QFT

And people change - and usually for the worse. I think it's great it you are really compatible but it is far, far worse to be married and unhappy than single.

Kids - lot of responsibility and it never ends but can be quite a joy. If you have kids, they will become your new focus in life.

Funny thing is that I know many single people that envy their married friends BUT I also know many married people that envy their single friends! Goes back to who you marry I think.

I'm 42, female, nevermo, serial monogamist and kidfree.

I love my life but I've never desired marriage or motherhood.

I think people who live their lives as close as they can to how they themselves desire to live them are generally more prone to being happy, contented people.... whether they be in conventional families, unconventional families, dedicated to a vocation, living like Grizzly Adams or whatever is their desire.

The key is getting to know what YOU want.

I like being married and I like kids, but I can only speak for myself.

More than half of marriages are unhappy, so your question is a good one.

Marriage is like a tornedo. It begins with all kinds of sucking and blowing, but in the end, you always lose your house.

Been there, done that. Only give away 1/2 your stuff one time. Then find a compatable sweetheart and live in sin.

Just sayin'...


YesTotallyJadedRon

One trades a level of independence to have a relationship. I think the answer as to which is better depends on the needs of the person at the time.

I can say with absolute certainty, being single is better than being in a bad relationship.

I would have said "single" but since I'm now married to someone I absolutely adore and who adores me.. someone who just by knowing him makes me feel like a a kinder, more patient, more responsible person....someone who would protect me as fiercely as I would protect him...Well yeah, you get the picture.... so for me I have to say "Married"!

or partnered people who never had children: They are very self aware. They have had the mental space to think through who they are and what they need to be true to themselves.

Sometimes in relationships and all the time in parenthood the vast majority of mental energy goes toward figuring out "who am in regard to this relationship?" Which I think is probably easier than doing the work of thinking through, "Who am I and what do I seek?" One is reactive and easy the other is proactive and somehow more adult.

SweetZ Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> you get the picture.... so for me I have to say
> "Married"!

again, why do people think there are only two options?!: single or married

there are MANY options:
single
married
cohabitate
girlfriend/boyfriend, but dont live together, but have sex
free love
etc

yup I agree with you nick.. before I got married, I had boyfriends that I dated for many years-I had my share of free love...but until I met my husband I never really wanted to be married... I guess that was my point.

Having been on both sides of the situation I would have to say that for me single with no children is the way to go. The only reason I married was because thats what the church commanded and well of course it didnt end well.

I love my kids to death and would not trade them for the world, but if I had it all to do over again I would not get married or have children. Life is short and it is what you make of it. Anytime you bring others into the equation you will gain some things and loose other things. Its always a trade and often times difficult to judge which way the "trade" offs will balance out.

Wish so much that I knew 20 years ago what I know now. You can love someone and have a great life together without having to get married or have children. Morgbots disagree, but this is certainly what I am teaching my children....

You really do have a choice. No matter what your choice is, you deserve to be happy.'

I've been single, in a nightmare abusive marriage, divorced, married and happy for 13 years, and divorced a second time as a single mother. Being beaten was the worst, by far!

Though happiness mainly comes from within, it DOES MATTER WHO YOU MARRY. I was told by the Mormons around me, that it doesn't matter who you marry, as long as he is a RM, and a good TBM, and you get married in the temple. WRONG! Your life--and death--can depend on who you marry!

You might not realize it, but you are in a good place right now. You will not settle! I predict you will be like Jon1, and like my brother, and not imagine yourself married until you actually fall in love with someone. That way, you won't be getting married for the wrong reasons: family pressure, church pressure, peer pressure, sexual urges, boredom, loneliness or needy-ness, etc. You get married because you don't ever want to say "goodbye" to that person, and you want to spend all your time with that person.

Having children is a seperate decision from marriage. A lot of couples don't have children these days. Also, having children is not an all-or-nothing decision. You can have just one child, and not 6. You can postpone having children so you and your wife can have an extended "honeymoon" period, finish your education, establish your careers, travel, or whatever you want to do.

You don't need our approval, or anyone's approval for this decision. As far as advice goes, I would tell you to follow your heart! Following your heart might be bad advice to a Mormon, because sometimes your heart leads you away from the group. Go out and live more of life, and the decision will come to you. Even then, you could always change your mind (before someone gets pregnant, that is).

Oh yeah. Nothing is worse than being in a bad marriage. After two bad marriages, I am single, and I am very happy. I get lonely sometimes, but that is no problem.

I like being a woman, and I did not want to live my one life on this planet without experiencing having a child. It was all I hoped for, and more! I raised my children alone, after their father (husband #2) abandoned us, which made things a little rough for a while. We pulled together, and made it through school, through all the Mormon garbage here in Utah, jobs in the summers and during vacations and after school, sports and adventures, illnesses, through college, and successful careers. The journey with my children was the greatest, most rewarding, most fun, most love-filled part of my life! They have always had a sense of humor, and a positive outlook on life. They are kind, intelligent and interesting. They helped me as much as I helped them.

Ask yourself: Will you ever wonder what you missed?

Ahem...why does it have to be one or the other? My boyfriend and I will have been together for seven years this December. People constantly ask us why we don't just get married if we're determined to stay together anyway, but actually, we're quite proud of the fact that we make it work, in spite of it being comparatively easy to walk away.

We've thought about getting married, and we definitely want children- sorry, no advice there- but we just like knowing that every time we have an argument we choose to stay, and stick it out. Both of us could walk away any day- no mortgage, no merged finances and before we buy anything, we decide who it "belongs" to- so when push comes to shove, we stick together, because this is something we consciously choose.

Don't know if this is any help at all...

It works for me. I have three very close friends who all got married. One is divorced another should be divorced and the third is happily married.

I'd probably have gotten married except I never met a woman who didn't want kids. Some of them wanted lots of kids.

Life is full of changes, challenges, accidents, diseases, fun, sadness -- you name it.
I've been married over 48 years so I don't recall what it's like to be single. I do like my alone time. I think everyone needs some.We're retired so it's a very different life from working, raising kids,and meeting all those responsibilities.

I wouldnt trade my life. I love my family and my grand kids!

I'm a divorce attorney, so I see the worst of the worst of what can happen when marriages go bad, and believe me, it's ghastly.

My opinion now, after much considered, and studied thought, is this: Why, oh why, would you ever enter into an arrangement with another person which requires you to sue that person to get out of the relationship? That's asking for trouble.

I think the grass is always greener on the other side. Would I trade my life, some days yes, some days no. I've worked my ass off to keep my family together and my dh has done the same. Many days he pisses me off and many days I was free as a bird. Would I have done it differently, perhaps, but that's not my reality today.

Good luck. Lots of good advice here.

How would you know you'd have to sue that person in the future, whom you're crazy over and can't wait to marry now?

That almost became my reality. We worked through our differences.

Statistically, it's a pretty sure bet.

Marriage doesn't have to carry around all the baggage you've mentioned-- kids don't necessarily follow, neither does being bossed around by a wife, etc. Given the choice, I would have spent more time being single myself, but I'm happy and my 'unconventional' marriage is fulfilling.

Now, Mormon marriage (and to be fair, other types too) built on faulty ideals and hormones-- yeah, I think you'd be better off staying away from that. I don't know how my in-laws can say they're happy with a straight face.

However, there are other ways of doing things-- it can be hard to believe that if you haven't seen it. My husband and I spent five years in a Mormon marriage and then realized it wasn't working for us. We decided to look at alternate models and we've created something that works for us. We ditched the gender roles, and got honest about needs and wants. Our marriage is more like two people with separate lives under the same roof who check in with each other and spend time together when possible. We call ourselves "roommates and lovers". There's the administrative side of our relationship and the fulfilling emotional partnership. We also gave ourselves permission to split up if it wasn't working well enough.

So, based on the first five years-- yes, single is definitely better.

But based on the last five years-- It could be, but I'll take what I've got.

I knew from an early age I didn't want to be a parent, but marriage was appealing -- at least my naive concept of it. Since Mormonism left me with a huge inferiority complex, having someone love me -- really love me -- would be great. Oh, and the sex, too.

I didn't marry until I was in my 30s, mostly because of the inferiority thing, but also because I didn't want my parents to know I'd left the church and wasn't looking for a "good Mormon girl."

So when I finally found that fantastic woman who loved me just the way I was, and who didn't want children either, I took the plunge.

It was wonderful for a while, but then my LDS baggage collided with her parental abuse baggage. Years of therapy couldn't save us.

After the wounds healed, I realized another problem was that I just couldn't live that closely entwined with a person. My natural personality is a loner. I'm happiest that way. And though my still-beloved ex has had some serious relationships, I think she's starting to realize she's happier living alone, even though she's a very sociable person.

Sure, I get lonely from time to time, but it passes quickly. Sure, I think about the problems of getting old alone, but it's selfish to want a spouse or children just so you'll have someone to take care of you.

I have the life I want, the one that works for me. And that's one of the problems with Mormonism and it's insistance that everyone have the same married-with-kids life. Sorry, old men, it's just not right for some of us.

I think there are a lot of married people in and out of Mormonism who should be single. I think it's at the core of many troubled marriages, with all the other problems as mere symptoms of that basic mismatch.



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 11/09/2010 08:56AM by Stray Mutt.

you dont have to marry anybody, you can live together and do the exact same things =)
people in norway dont get married very often any more.

I am 41, never married, no kids.

I could not imagine my life as wife and mommy.

I can't possibly suggest that one life is better than another because I've never been married. I don't have the experience to compare properly. I'm happy with the life I have chosen.

"Better" is totally subjective. If life seems better to YOU as a single person, rather than married, then it is. Some people enjoy being married. To many, that would be "better." To me, it looks like apartheid and I want nothing to do with it.

ETA: I am not and have not ever been jealous of my married friends. That goes double for those with kids. I feel sorry for them. They seem imprisoned and oppressed. Looks awful. I can't imagine how anyone could be happy in an arrangement like that, but go figure. A lot of people are.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 11/09/2010 11:46AM by dogzilla.

...of being married and having children is a pretty good indicator we shouldn't be married with children. It would be bad for everyone involved. Yet the LDS church keeps pushing and pushing.

I think it's a completely personal decision and the answer is different for everyone. And it depends on who you're in the relationship with (or without). I'm single and I hate it. HATE. Did I mention that I HATE it? It's not that I need someone to define me or whatever, I just hate not having someone to love and share life with. To be that special person to someone else. It's a very lonely existence for me. But I sure wouldn't ever take just whoever comes along, just to have someone to be with. I used to want kids so bad. But I'm in my upper 30's now, and I'm not sure I'd choose to do that at this point in life.

But I think if you don't want to be married, you shouldn't get married. And if you don't want kids, DON'T have them.

We've been together for ten years now. We both decided biological kids were not for us before we even met. We adopted instead. My inlaws ask if I'm not even curious about having bio kids. I never did get the point and still don't. Having kids is not that much fun. There are some fun moments but it's a lot of hard work to reach those moments.

If you don't want to get married why should you? If you don't want kids you definitely shouldn't have them. Even people who desperately want them will find out how hard it is and have some days where they regret it.

We chose a pretty unconventional lifestyle before we met that pretty much ruled out a working relationship with most people. We lucked into each other I guess.

I and my partner (who I call my wife) have been living together unmarried for 27 years. We have 3 children of 22, 20 and 14, all doing very well.

We still get on, one day at a time... ;-)

I believe marriage is unnecessary, but I recognize that some people like the formalization of a promise of commitment.

Res Ipsa Loquitur: I have also thought that it was strange to enter into a legally-binding partnership that would require legal action to "break asunder".

Just one of the reasons I've never done it.

Oh yes, and I'm a nevermo

Edited once to say: Res Ipsa Loquitur - what does your name mean? My Latin's no longer up to it.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 11/10/2010 08:04AM by Soft Machine.

The worst is a narcissist tbm. That combo is anti relationship to the max.

But then marriage as a tbm sucked
and being single as a tbm sucked.

Having tbm children is no picnic either.

They're the ones who want everyone to feel sorry for them who can never admit to any wrongdoing. If you find you're dating someone like that, get out of it and find someone else. TBM goes without saying.

Well, maybe you are one to marry later in life and have no kids. There are people who do that. And there are always ladies who are alone....or divorced who would love to have a partner as they grow older. There is always someone out there if you want someone. But definitely don't have kids unless you really want to provide for them and love them- daily!!!

...and is even enjoyable in many ways. But you have to have the temperment for it. It certainly beats having a disrespectful, immature, or emotionally/physically abusive partner by a long shot.

But if you find a nice, kind, loving, responsible partner, I think it would be much better to be married and have a family. Just take your time and choose well.

After reading all the other responses, I feel a little bit bad that I have limited input on this topic!

I've tried my hand at dating and so far I haven't been very good at it. And my friends of both genders would tell you that they don't know why I'm single, so either they are very generous people or I have some good points floating around in what I refer to as my Miasma of Weirdness and Cuddles©.

I personally do not care for being single, though I am very suited for it, having what's been referred to as a "Bronte-sister personality," which I'm really hoping meant the Bronte sisters also had a penchant for eating cream cheese out of the package and having mood swings. On the other hand, it's very preferable to A) dating one of the Mormon men I used to be hung up on before I left, or B) dating a gentile, but one who is a jerk. Since I keep meeting the latter, I'm rather grudgingly enjoying being single right now. However, long term single-ness would be, at least for me, absolute misery.

What is your age Lurker? haha :)

This is hard to say most of the time. But being single with no children after age 40 can be really hard. It seemed fun when I was younger. But at this age, most of your peer group will have children, be married or at least divorced. Either way their life focus is on family which makes for akward friendships when you realise that your peers are different from you. This is not a problem when you're younger and your peers are in the process of dating or getting married or having babies because there isn't a huge distance between you yet. But it does get very hard later when your peers have been living focused on family for years and dont know how to relate to you anymore. Being alone without a partner is hard but what I never counted on was that I would feel alone among my peers because they ceased to really be peers.

Adult development includes caring for others. It just does. Family or marriage or living together is part of adult growth. Sadly at some point when you feel your peers have grown up and you didn't, you may begin to feel that you are not a real man or woman because you did not develop those traits of adulthood that are developmentally appropriate. I have male and female friends who are single over 40 and they are feeling pain and doubt and insecurity about their manhood and womanhood as they never expected, feeling that their friends who are married or are parents are real adults, real men,real women, while they have remained immature.

Just my two cents as something unexpected to consider as you make choices now.

There came a point when I made my peace with being single and childless. It didn't come easily.

What you said is true, it can be difficult to cultivate friendhips with married people. Many married people are not open to friendships with singles, and of the few that are, there is a wide gap between lifestyles.

My close friends tend to be other older singles.

I think I go the best of both worlds (so far anyway). Single or in serial relationships for 20 years or so, then at around age 40 I knew I wanted to settle down and try to have kids, found my partner and now have two young fellas, though haven't bothered to get married.

having been around the traps for a couple of decades before having kids makes me happier to be 'trapped at home' than I would have been at 25. All my friends who got married early are now with different partners and most have had ugly divorces. I think its easier to contemplate a really long term commitment after you have had some life experience and tried some different relationships and partners.

Single with children is the best.