Recovery Board
: RfM
Recovery from Mormonism (RfM) discussion forum.
They were looking for a previous resident at the address, and they did not know who I was (i.e. 40 years in the cult, RM, YBU grad, HP, BIC, etc). The senior missionary did all the talking. They were fine handsome young men, and I was very nice to them, except for the fact that I was not honest in identifying who I was. I justify it because they are not honest who truly representing who the church is. I have a son their age, and I couldn't help but feel sorry for them. I was just home for work, and I was still dressed in my business suit. This is how the conversation went:
Knock Knock
Me: (opening the door)Yes?
Elder A: Hello, is Bro L here? Are you Bro. L.?
Me: No. Mr. L lived here a few years ago; I am the new owner.
Elder A: Do you have Bro L's address?
Me: "Brother L" are you a relative of his?
Elder A: Oh, no, I'm sorry, yeah we are from his church, and we're just checking on the members. He's a member of our congregation, and were just stopping by to see how he is and if he needs anything.
Me: Oh, okay, well I know he lives over across town on 59th and XX, but I'm not sure. I think he's in the phone book. Okay, sorry I could be of more help. Good luck. (I began to close the door).
Elder A: Well, uh, actually, although we are checking on the members, but also as missionaries we also perform service for members of this community. I see that your yard needs to be raked, and honestly, we would love to rake it for you - that's just sort of what we do.
Me: (As tempting as it was) Well guys, I really appreciate the offer. Seriously, what a nice gesture, however, I'm sure there are much more needy people that could use your services. I mean, I'm sure you are sincere, and that you don't have any ulterior motives to get me to join your church right? This is just a pure offer of Christlike Service?
Elder A: Of course. Do you go to church?
Me: Occassionally.
Elder A: What church do you go to?
Me: When I go, I usually go to a non-denomination church over on X street. I am a Christian.
Elder A: Oh, okay, cool, well, we are representatives of the COJCOLDS, have you heard of our church?
Me: Yes, indeed. I have studied various religions, and I am familiar with "the mormons."
Elder A: Oh okay, so you've heard of the Book of Mormon, and have you ever read it?
Me: Yes, not all the way through though. That 2nd Nephi is a killer.
Elder A: (chuckling)...yeah that's true. Well I have read this book, and I received a witness from the Holy Ghost that it is a true book. How did you feel when you read the book?
Me: Well, when I read it, I thought it was interesting, but honestly, I had a feeling that it was false. I suppose you could say that I also had a witness from the Holy spirit that it was false.
Elder A: Oh, wow, well, fair enough.
Me: Ya know, you must be careful about using only "feelings" as evidence. You must look at the facts too.
Elder A: Well, we're not concerned as much about the facts because facts can be manipulated, but we know that the spirit teaches, reveals, and testify's of truth, and that's how God reveals truth to us.
Me: Did you just say that you are "not concerned about the facts", really? Surely you don't mean that? Even the savior said that there would be false prophets in the last days, and the way you determine if someone is a false prophet or a false church is by their fruits. What are their fruits? Well it's their prophecies - whether they come true or not, and perhaps by their actions. So you see, even though the savior said that he would send the comforter, he also insinuated that we must use our minds in conjuction with the spirit to know truth. We must use both.
Listen guys, I'll be honest, either the BOM is true and Joseph Smith is a prophet or he is not. The facts, the data, the evidence is overwhelming against these two factors.
Elder A: I understand what you are saying, and we agree with you that they are either true or they or not, but we know that the Lord will reveal the truth of the BOM in his own due time.
Me: Really, well perhaps he already has revealed it. Did you know that many prophets have testified that the "Lamanites" - those we live in the Islands, North and South America - have now been shown via DNA evidence to be from Asia - not Israel. Did you that the hill Cumorah in NY, where the BOM was buried, and where over 3 million people were killed in battles, has not produced any evidence whatsoever. You'd think a farmer would find a sword here or a shield there or perhaps a skeleton or two - but nada. The location of the BOM lands have never been found. There is absolutely no evidence whatsoever of the BOM.
Elder A: Well, I mean the Bible, is the same way, you must take the Bible on faith.
Me: Well true, but there is historical, linguistic, cultural, geographic, and other evidence to confirm the Bible. Not so with the BOM.
Plus I KNOW about Joseph Smith, and because I know about his character I know there is no way he is a prophet. For instance, did you know that Joseph Smith was married to over 31 women? It's true. Look it up on the church geneology site. Not only taht, but he was married to a 14 year old and other teens. 11 of the 31 were already married. The reason he was incarcerated at his death was not because of persecution but because his 1st counselor, Wm Law, was extremely upset about what Joseph was doing with these little girls. Joseph then destroyed his printing press in Navou and in doing do violated his 1st amendment right. He was killed in a gun battle.
Guys, you must know the facts, you simply cannot go by feelings. You'll can easily be ripped off. I wish you both the best.
Elder A: Well another testiment to what I am saying is true is taht I am so happy with how the church has made me feel.
Me: I think that's great, but unfortantly, the pharmaceutical industry has produced data to show that the highest distribution of anti-depressant medication in the world, is right there in the Utah corridor. If it makes people so happy, then why per capita, are those people the most depressed people?
Both Elders: "really, hmmn"
Elder A: Well, um, okay, ah, I guess I would like to leave you with this card, and if you have any questions please get on the web site.
Me: Okay, well good luck guys. Bye.
Knock Knock
Me: (opening the door)Yes?
Elder A: Hello, is Bro L here? Are you Bro. L.?
Me: No. Mr. L lived here a few years ago; I am the new owner.
Elder A: Do you have Bro L's address?
Me: "Brother L" are you a relative of his?
Elder A: Oh, no, I'm sorry, yeah we are from his church, and we're just checking on the members. He's a member of our congregation, and were just stopping by to see how he is and if he needs anything.
Me: Oh, okay, well I know he lives over across town on 59th and XX, but I'm not sure. I think he's in the phone book. Okay, sorry I could be of more help. Good luck. (I began to close the door).
Elder A: Well, uh, actually, although we are checking on the members, but also as missionaries we also perform service for members of this community. I see that your yard needs to be raked, and honestly, we would love to rake it for you - that's just sort of what we do.
Me: (As tempting as it was) Well guys, I really appreciate the offer. Seriously, what a nice gesture, however, I'm sure there are much more needy people that could use your services. I mean, I'm sure you are sincere, and that you don't have any ulterior motives to get me to join your church right? This is just a pure offer of Christlike Service?
Elder A: Of course. Do you go to church?
Me: Occassionally.
Elder A: What church do you go to?
Me: When I go, I usually go to a non-denomination church over on X street. I am a Christian.
Elder A: Oh, okay, cool, well, we are representatives of the COJCOLDS, have you heard of our church?
Me: Yes, indeed. I have studied various religions, and I am familiar with "the mormons."
Elder A: Oh okay, so you've heard of the Book of Mormon, and have you ever read it?
Me: Yes, not all the way through though. That 2nd Nephi is a killer.
Elder A: (chuckling)...yeah that's true. Well I have read this book, and I received a witness from the Holy Ghost that it is a true book. How did you feel when you read the book?
Me: Well, when I read it, I thought it was interesting, but honestly, I had a feeling that it was false. I suppose you could say that I also had a witness from the Holy spirit that it was false.
Elder A: Oh, wow, well, fair enough.
Me: Ya know, you must be careful about using only "feelings" as evidence. You must look at the facts too.
Elder A: Well, we're not concerned as much about the facts because facts can be manipulated, but we know that the spirit teaches, reveals, and testify's of truth, and that's how God reveals truth to us.
Me: Did you just say that you are "not concerned about the facts", really? Surely you don't mean that? Even the savior said that there would be false prophets in the last days, and the way you determine if someone is a false prophet or a false church is by their fruits. What are their fruits? Well it's their prophecies - whether they come true or not, and perhaps by their actions. So you see, even though the savior said that he would send the comforter, he also insinuated that we must use our minds in conjuction with the spirit to know truth. We must use both.
Listen guys, I'll be honest, either the BOM is true and Joseph Smith is a prophet or he is not. The facts, the data, the evidence is overwhelming against these two factors.
Elder A: I understand what you are saying, and we agree with you that they are either true or they or not, but we know that the Lord will reveal the truth of the BOM in his own due time.
Me: Really, well perhaps he already has revealed it. Did you know that many prophets have testified that the "Lamanites" - those we live in the Islands, North and South America - have now been shown via DNA evidence to be from Asia - not Israel. Did you that the hill Cumorah in NY, where the BOM was buried, and where over 3 million people were killed in battles, has not produced any evidence whatsoever. You'd think a farmer would find a sword here or a shield there or perhaps a skeleton or two - but nada. The location of the BOM lands have never been found. There is absolutely no evidence whatsoever of the BOM.
Elder A: Well, I mean the Bible, is the same way, you must take the Bible on faith.
Me: Well true, but there is historical, linguistic, cultural, geographic, and other evidence to confirm the Bible. Not so with the BOM.
Plus I KNOW about Joseph Smith, and because I know about his character I know there is no way he is a prophet. For instance, did you know that Joseph Smith was married to over 31 women? It's true. Look it up on the church geneology site. Not only taht, but he was married to a 14 year old and other teens. 11 of the 31 were already married. The reason he was incarcerated at his death was not because of persecution but because his 1st counselor, Wm Law, was extremely upset about what Joseph was doing with these little girls. Joseph then destroyed his printing press in Navou and in doing do violated his 1st amendment right. He was killed in a gun battle.
Guys, you must know the facts, you simply cannot go by feelings. You'll can easily be ripped off. I wish you both the best.
Elder A: Well another testiment to what I am saying is true is taht I am so happy with how the church has made me feel.
Me: I think that's great, but unfortantly, the pharmaceutical industry has produced data to show that the highest distribution of anti-depressant medication in the world, is right there in the Utah corridor. If it makes people so happy, then why per capita, are those people the most depressed people?
Both Elders: "really, hmmn"
Elder A: Well, um, okay, ah, I guess I would like to leave you with this card, and if you have any questions please get on the web site.
Me: Okay, well good luck guys. Bye.
That might plant some seeds of doubt.
that it was really rude for two strangers to come tell you that your yard needed to be raked, even if they did offer to do the work for you. I would have told them to shove off right then.
Your way was much better. You gave them something to think about in an intelligent, articulate, non-angry way. You did great!
Your way was much better. You gave them something to think about in an intelligent, articulate, non-angry way. You did great!
You shoulda said - Well guys, obviously you don't know that trees get stronger if they're able to absorb the nutrients from their leaves when they decompose over the winter.
Are you trying to harm my trees? Do all Mormons hate trees?!!?
And then start crying.
Are you trying to harm my trees? Do all Mormons hate trees?!!?
And then start crying.
Excellent job, AnonExmo.
Not a major point, but a correction nevertheless. The destruction of the printing press was in fact not a violation of the owner's first amendment rights. The Bill of Rights, by each amendment's express terms, applied only to the Federal government, until the 14th Amendment was adopted after the Civil War. After that, the US Supreme Court started applying individual rights from the Bill of Rights to the states on a right by right basis. Even to this day, not all of the rights enumerated in the Bill of Rights have been "applied by incorporation" to the states.
At the time JS destroyed the press, the 14th Amendment had not been adopted, and thus the 1st amendment had not been incorporated into the 14th amendment to apply to states and municipalities.
This doesn't mean, of course, that JS didn't violate the press's owner's rights. Certainly his property rights were violated, such as by trespass to chattels.
I suppose it's an arcane, almost irrelevant fact, but we need to be sure that we have our facts as accurate as possible if we are to combat the falsity that is the Morg.
Not a major point, but a correction nevertheless. The destruction of the printing press was in fact not a violation of the owner's first amendment rights. The Bill of Rights, by each amendment's express terms, applied only to the Federal government, until the 14th Amendment was adopted after the Civil War. After that, the US Supreme Court started applying individual rights from the Bill of Rights to the states on a right by right basis. Even to this day, not all of the rights enumerated in the Bill of Rights have been "applied by incorporation" to the states.
At the time JS destroyed the press, the 14th Amendment had not been adopted, and thus the 1st amendment had not been incorporated into the 14th amendment to apply to states and municipalities.
This doesn't mean, of course, that JS didn't violate the press's owner's rights. Certainly his property rights were violated, such as by trespass to chattels.
I suppose it's an arcane, almost irrelevant fact, but we need to be sure that we have our facts as accurate as possible if we are to combat the falsity that is the Morg.
Res Ipsa is right about incorporation of the Bill of Rights (the incorporation of the Second Amendment for state actors was very recent indeed).
However, the 14th Amendment only binds state actors. Even if the 14th Amendment had been passed at the time and the First Amendment had been incorporated into it, Joseph Smith still was not a state actor when he destroyed the press. Therefore, he would not be violating the First Amendment by doing so, and the only remedy even today (as Res Ipsa noted was the case way back when) would be in tort.
However, the 14th Amendment only binds state actors. Even if the 14th Amendment had been passed at the time and the First Amendment had been incorporated into it, Joseph Smith still was not a state actor when he destroyed the press. Therefore, he would not be violating the First Amendment by doing so, and the only remedy even today (as Res Ipsa noted was the case way back when) would be in tort.
Just kidding. I forgot Joseph Smith was the mayor when he did this, making him...dun dun dun...a state actor. Shows my knowledge of LDS history, lol. Res Ipsa, I never should have doubted you!
... because facts can be manipulated, but we know that the spirit teaches, reveals, and testify's of truth, and that's how God reveals truth to us."
Isn't that amazing. Facts indeed can be misrepresented and evidence can be misinterpreted, but golly. Especially to say that after you told him the spirit told you it wasn't true.
Isn't that amazing. Facts indeed can be misrepresented and evidence can be misinterpreted, but golly. Especially to say that after you told him the spirit told you it wasn't true.
Funny how that never works for the stalker who has a restraining order out against them.
Like if it really was true because the stalker believed it, why doesn't the target ever fall in love instyead of calling the cops?
I mean, can you imagine if this was a real test of truth? -
But your honor, I have a very good feeling that this person really does love me and if only I could get to know them personally...
Oh- well, If your feelings tell you that it is true, I'll have to fine the plaintiff for failing to adjust their lives to accomodate the revealed truth.
Like if it really was true because the stalker believed it, why doesn't the target ever fall in love instyead of calling the cops?
I mean, can you imagine if this was a real test of truth? -
But your honor, I have a very good feeling that this person really does love me and if only I could get to know them personally...
Oh- well, If your feelings tell you that it is true, I'll have to fine the plaintiff for failing to adjust their lives to accomodate the revealed truth.
And if either or both of them is "cursed" with any intellectual curiosity and honesty a seed has been planted.
Nicely done. They seemed like decent chaps. Hopefully you have started them on the path to RFM! ;o))
Facts can be manipulated but "messages from God" can't? Ummm, really? Then what about all those true blue believers in "false" churches.
That's about the stupidest comment I've read in ages. I've never been a missionary but I could just see me saying something like that when I was I true blue born again Christian and then cringing everytime I thought of it later. ;)
That's about the stupidest comment I've read in ages. I've never been a missionary but I could just see me saying something like that when I was I true blue born again Christian and then cringing everytime I thought of it later. ;)
If the guy they're stalking wanted to be in their church, that's where he would be.
It's always fun to play with these young minds.
> Well true, but there is historical, linguistic, cultural, geographic, and other evidence to confirm the Bible.
> Not so with the BOM.
I agree that there is nothing to 'confirm' the BoM. Yet, I disagree about using the word confirm even for the bible. There is evidence supporting some of the historical events and people in the bible, but that is a far cry from confirming its claims and message. In that light, the bible is nothing more than fiction based on actual events. Put the standard disclaimer found in novels --that ties to actual events or people being coincidence-- and it would merit only a passing interest on the shelf.
> Well true, but there is historical, linguistic, cultural, geographic, and other evidence to confirm the Bible.
> Not so with the BOM.
I agree that there is nothing to 'confirm' the BoM. Yet, I disagree about using the word confirm even for the bible. There is evidence supporting some of the historical events and people in the bible, but that is a far cry from confirming its claims and message. In that light, the bible is nothing more than fiction based on actual events. Put the standard disclaimer found in novels --that ties to actual events or people being coincidence-- and it would merit only a passing interest on the shelf.
AnonExmo Wrote:
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> For instance, did you know that Joseph Smith was married to over 31 women? It's true. Look it up on the church geneology site.
http://truthundertherazor.blogspot.com/2010/09/joseph-smith-jr-married-sealed-to-women.html
joseph smith has been sealed/married to over 239 women so far. one of them was born 195 years before joseph and another was born 15 years AFTER he died! =)
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> For instance, did you know that Joseph Smith was married to over 31 women? It's true. Look it up on the church geneology site.
http://truthundertherazor.blogspot.com/2010/09/joseph-smith-jr-married-sealed-to-women.html
joseph smith has been sealed/married to over 239 women so far. one of them was born 195 years before joseph and another was born 15 years AFTER he died! =)
AnonExmo Wrote:
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> Elder A: Oh, no, I'm sorry, yeah we are from his church, and we're just checking on the members. He's a member of our congregation, and were just stopping by to see how he is and if he needs anything.
my reply: "he moved away years ago. he wasnt that important to your congregation was he for you to be checking up on him not until now?"
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> Elder A: Oh, no, I'm sorry, yeah we are from his church, and we're just checking on the members. He's a member of our congregation, and were just stopping by to see how he is and if he needs anything.
my reply: "he moved away years ago. he wasnt that important to your congregation was he for you to be checking up on him not until now?"
LOL it never ceases to amaze me how they claim to offer service to potential members in order to reel them in.
Once a sucker joins, the demands for money and free work start.
Deceptive cult!
Once a sucker joins, the demands for money and free work start.
Deceptive cult!