I am not Mormon, and I joined this board originally because one of my cousins recently began attending the Mormon church and has been asking all of us in the family when she can send missionaries to speak with us about her new religion.

Incidentally, I love the term "Mishies". I've seen many of them, bicycling around in their little white shirts, and it makes them sound cuddly. LOL

I am a Catholic by conversion. To become Catholic you have to take almost a year of instruction (it's called RCIA -- Rite of Christian Initiation for Adults) and attend various retreats, counsel with a priest, etc. before you can join the church at the Easter Vigil. It's a fairly complex process and it is made clear every step of the way that the Church wants you to know what you are getting into, what the Church believes, how those beliefs are derived, all of the attendant rituals (and as an aside, wow -- until I started reading about the temple stuff, I thought the Catholic Church took the prize for the most complicated rituals in Christendom. Good Lord.)

I was raised in a more mainstream Protestant tradition, where you joined a church simply by going up for altar call and beginning to attend regularly. You were supposed to go to Bible Study, etc. but there was no formal instruction like there is in Catholicism; the dogma was pretty straightforward if you were familiar with Christian belief.

From what I understand from my cousin, becoming Mormon involves having the mishies come to your house and tell you a few things about the church, and then you just start going and kind of ease yourself in. But reading up on the history of LDS, with the special glasses and golden plates and Jesus in America and all that, it seems like there's an awful lot of backstory that you might need to know before you actually make the commitment to follow the religion. Furthermore, the backstory is kind of...weird. (I hope I'm not offending anyone by saying that, and to be fair, Catholics have a saint called Christina the Astonishing who was supposed to be able to fly up into the rafters of her church in religious ecstasy so I really can't talk about weird but...yeah. Weird.) I mean, how much of that is divulged before you make the commitment to join the church?

I guess I'm just wondering if there is a Mormon equivalent to RCIA before you can really be considered a member of the church and allowed to go to the temple, etc. Because I'd hate to just start attending a church, find that everyone was very nice and welcoming, begin to settle in, and then all of a sudden discover that I'm supposed to believe in talking salamanders.

So, how is it done?

in fact, right here.
After arming yourself with knowledge, you'd have to be brain damaged to join.

Oh, believe me, you're not offending ANYONE by saying it's weird. We know it's weird, we hate that it's weird, and we regret the time spent in serving and perpetuating the weirdness. Welcome.

there are so many things they will not tell you until you joing. THe Heavenly Mother ( God's wife, but we don't talk about her)

Jesus being the true physical son of God ( he came and have physical relations with Mary)

That God is a exhaulted ( sp sorry) being who wase once mortal.

There are positive sides to it. But the policy is Milk before Meat.

To convert you are SUPPOSED to be able to believe it all before you are Baptised.
A lot of converts joined saying well, Maybe it's true to themselves.
If those of us who did that had jsut said, sorry I can't believe all of it, we'd saved ourselves and some other TBM (True Believeing Mormons) a lot of trouble and grief.

If You really look into it you will find what you need, don't let anyone rush you. Mishies try to pressure you into planning baptisim after a few meetings.

Getting a temple REcommend isn't hard, you have to be a member for a year and in good standing. I had a Bishop who gave one to me because he thought it might help with my doubts. Most Bishops had people to much sticter standards.

nomilk Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------


> Getting a temple REcommend isn't hard, you have to
> be a member for a year and in good standing.

It isnt hard .... as long as giving up at least 10 % of your gross income to the LDS INC financial monster is really easy to do for you.

For many thats over 100 % of their discretionary income....
and its not easy to do at all.

and then there's your spare time.... which you no longer have any of.

all credit to Al who posted it first just a bit ago in another
thread.



http://www.ohnopodcast.com/investigations/2011/7/8/ross-and-carrie-go-mormon-part-1-and-it-came-to-pass.html

Don't do it. You will be very sorry. Of course if you like to take orders, pay up without them being accountable for where your money goes, and if you like secret handshakes,etc. and you like wearing extra garmies because they tell you it will protect you and if you like the idea of keeping nonmormons(including family) from Mormon Temple weddings, then by all means JOIN. Have a great life! NOT!!!!!

It's all really easy, just contact those mishies and they will make it happen. Unfortunately , it will be too late to realize that it was all a hoax especially when they start in on a 10% of gross income is due for tithes but $ offerings need to be more and your bills start racking up. But then getting out can just be as easy when you resign your membership. You will lose all of the friends they assigned to you though...

There 6 meeting with the missionaries (and they do not tell you much) they set a date for you to be put under the water and you are in.Can take less then 2 weeks. Then you start learning about the real org.

LOL No, I don't want to join. I was just curious as to what you have to DO to join. My cousin was not real clear about it (she said "The missionaries will tell you all about it if you just let them talk to you and open your mind!") and when I started looking into it and discovered how much...interesting dogma was involved, I wondered if you had to take classes or something before they'd let you be a full member. It just seems like such a complicated religion.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 08/17/2011 04:00PM by frankiepup.

and then remove your brain because you won't need it anymore.

In all seriousness, once you let the missionaries begin their sales pitch (that's really what the "missionary discussions" are) you will be in the same situation as if they were door-to-door vacuum cleaner salesmen trying to sell you something you don't need, don't want and can't use. But you end up buying it anyway and paying WAY more for it than you needed to.

Might I suggest reading "The Believing Brain" by Michael Shermer, "The Demon-Haunted World" by Carl Sagan and "Religion Explained" by Pascal Boyer. You'll learn more and spend less than studying Mormonism.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 08/17/2011 04:13PM by nebularry.

Some of us grew up in the culture of the cult, and we learned as we went along. You don't really have to know much at all just pay the 10% and you'll get along. They do check your taxes to make sure you actually paid 10%...

None of that is told to you before baptism, and in fact you can go a lifetime without learning much of it, and just kind of accidentally pick it up along the way. Most of us are here because we've had a rude awakening to all the stuff that the church hides from its membership, and yes you can find a lot of it right here.

Here's what you need to know to become a full-fledged mormon, nothing more, nothing less, as far as I remember from being a missionary myself:

1) There is a God who created us, and you are his child and he loves you. His son Jesus died for our sins as part of God's plan, and the Holy Ghost is there to inform you that things are true.

2) Joseph Smith was a prophet, like Moses and Abraham, who was visited by God and Jesus in 1820. This happened in answer to Joseph Smith's prayer asking for truth, and you too can pray to learn truth and you'll get your answer through the Holy Ghost (warm feelings, epiphanies, etc...)

3) Joseph Smith translated the Book of Mormon, which is an account of the people who travelled from Jerusalem to the Americas, and lived (here) during the time of Jesus. Jesus even visited them. Read it for yourself in 3rd Nephi Chapter 11. This account of Jesus goes hand-in-hand with the account of Jesus in the Bible.

4) Jesus died not only so that we could receive forgiveness from our sins, but also so that we could be resurrected and receive a perfect body. Thus he overcame both sin and death.

5) We will all be resurrected, but in order to return to live with God we have to do certain things. We must have faith, we must repent of our sins so that we qualify for the atonement, and we must be baptized and receive the gift of the holy ghost.

**Note, this is all you need to know in order to accept the commitment to be baptized a mormon.

6) Christ's church fell into a state of apostasy not long after his death and the priesthood, or authority from God, was taken away from the earth.

7) God restored the priesthood to Joseph Smith and organized his complete church again in 1830.

8) God created us long before we were born, and we lived with him in the spirit world. There, we accepted a plan which would involve us coming to earth and getting a body.

9) Once we die our bodies will be separated from our spirits and we will be in prison or paradise until the resurrection. We continue to learn and make choices there until final judgement, where we're assigned to either the celestial, terrestrial, or telestial kingdom.

10) Since having a body is such an important part of this phase of existence, we must take care of them. This means no alcohol, coffee, tea, or tobacco. It also means that we must be sexually clean, and not have any sexual relations with someone we're not legally married to.

** Note this is the point where the discussions can get rocky. You absolutely can't be baptized unless you follows these rules exactly. One slip up will delay your baptism until you can show that you have convincingly repented.

11) Being a disciple of Christ takes devotion. One way we can show our devotion is by fasting, or going without food, for a couple of meals in a row. Everyone in the church fasts on the first Sunday of each month, and then gives fast offerings for the poor and needy.

12) We also show our devotion by giving one-tenth of our income to the church.

** Note, fasting isn't a big deal, but you can't be baptize unless you commit to give a tenth of your income to the church. Tithing is hugely important.

13) The church has 3 major missions - proclaim the gospel, prefect the saints, and redeem the dead (by doing vicarious work in the temple)


That's all you need to know, and most of what you'll learn in the discussions.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 08/17/2011 04:20PM by kimball.

OK, to be serious, and answer the question, here goes...

You are taught the "lessons" (six now?). You are asked to live the law of tithing (church tax) and the law of chastity and the "word of wisdom" and attend church. These are the biggees. No smoking, drinking, coffee, marijuana, illicit drugs, sex (except in your marriage), and you gotta pay 10% (of the gross). So after trying out this for a couple of weeks you get interviewed by the local Bishop. He asks lots of questions about your feelings about the church (i.e., your "testimony") and about your past sexual pecidillos (can't spell). If he has a warm feeling about you (and he will almost always), he'll recommend you for baptism and they schedule the dunking date and you're in, well after they lay hands on you and give you the holy spook...

Did I leave anything out? Oh, yea, you gotta say you read at least parts of the Book of Mormon. Mormons get real offended if you can't read a few pages of what Mark Twain called "chloroform in print"....

<snicker>

That's funny! ;o)

The missionaries are told it is ok to lie to get baptisms. They just redefine the word "lie."

ME; I mean, it's just a basic Protestant religion but you don't believe in the Trinity, right?

MISHIES: Right.

ME: So there's no weird beliefs I should know about?

MISHIES (exchange glances): No. (meaning, not weird to us)

In the old days, thirty years ago, the missionaries would start challenging to baptism after one lesson. Now, the prospective member is queried to make sure they have given up coffee, alcohol, cigarettes. These are good predictors of whether or not they will PAY TITHING. Which is the goal, of course, more tithe-paying members. What they don't want is takers, which is why they avoid helping the natives in any material way.

Anagrammy




Anagrammy

anagrammy...(about my future BIL in the post below) he told the missionaries that he didn't know if he could ever give up coffee. They did tell him they didn't like his coffee or coke drinking (not sure how they worded it), but they still baptised him.

I definately don't think this is the norm. They were out for the dunking!

In Mormon thinking, these Holocaust victims now realize their sacrifice was in vain, that their "chosen" status was superceded by a more recent "chosen" group who have grafted themselves into the Jewish lineage by self-declared adoption.

They must be grateful now that they know the truth.

Yeah, the arrogance and lack of respect is appalling, isn't it?

But no different than the dismissing of Native and Central American achievements enmasse labeling them as cursed because of their color and crediting their accomplishments to the white man.

Anagrammy

So they hit the tithing part pretty hard then.

I mean, we tithe in the Catholic church too but if you make outside charitable contributions, that is considered part of your 10% (since your tithe is supposed to help the poor) and no one checks up on you unless you make a specific pledge for something (like a building program). They just give you a tax statement at the end of the year and leave it at that.

I read one story on this board about a man who was not allowed to attend his daughter's wedding because his tithe was not up to date. That sounded pretty crappy to me.

In order to go to the temple to receive all the other ordinances (just as important as baptism if you want to return to God) you have to get a temple recommend. In order to get one you have to not drink/smoke/coffee at all, no sex or near-sex out of wedlock, and pay full tithing. It's all up to the bishop, so some may let some things slide more than others, but those are the rules. You have to "pass" a temple recommend interview with him to get one, and some poeple just lie. But the bishop sees how much tithing you spend, so you can only get away with so much.

One of these vital ordinances is temple marriage. If you don't have a recommend, you can't even so much as step foot in the temple, even to see the wedding of a family member. That's because the cermony involves sacred garb and secret handshakes that others aren't supposed to know. All hell is going to break loose when my little brother gets married, and my wife can see it and I can't.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 08/17/2011 04:46PM by kimball.

Let's be real here though... The only thing they can really check on is your tithing, and how well they check on that depends on your bishop. The rest of it is more a matter of you have to be a good enough Mormon to follow all the rules, or a good enough liar to pretend to.

First of all, thanks for sharing about how Catholics are converted. I've always wondered how conversion or membership happened in other religions. (yes I grew up in a box in Utah)

As for the Mormon conversion, yes there are the missionary discussions as others have said but...they tried to baptise my soon to be BIL after 1 meeting with him, he told them he wanted to learn more first. He was very honest with them that he was inquiring just so he knew more about his future wife's belief's. They met with him a few times over a week, he was baptised after 2 weeks. Yes I tried to warn him, I told him that all they cared about was getting him in the water, that they will be overly kind and sugar coat everything. But he still did it rather quick.

My issue with this is, how can you know enough about any religion after just 2 weeks, especially with the sugar coating that I'm sure most would give. Anyone should do their research before making such a life decision.

I'm glad to hear that Catholic's take a year and give classes, at least they can admit that it's a big change to make and it's something that takes knowledge and commitment (and actually knowing what you are committing too).

I've helped teach RCIA a few times since I converted and it is always made clear that you are not under pressure to convert just because you are taking the class. We've had people who go through the class just to find out about Catholicism, people who were "cradle Catholic" (the Catholic version of what you call Born in the Covenant) who have fallen away and want to brush up, and people who take the class two or three times before they join. There is a point in the process where you decide whether you will join the church during that cycle, and other rituals you go through from that point on if you say you want to join then, but if you aren't joining you can just remain in the class as an inquirer.

Also if you were already baptized into a Christian faith, you don't have to be rebaptized to join the Catholic church. I guess they figure that first baptism "took". Now I'm curious, though -- I want to ask my priest if baptism into the Mormon church counts as well. LOL!

Fellow nevermo here. I was raised in the Catholic church by a middle-of-the-road Catholic family. I also attended Protestant churches for many years.

AFAIK the Catholic church does not accept Mormon baptism.

I think that it's great that you are learning about Mormonism, especially since you have a Mormon cousin who is trying her best to convert other family members. There's a lot to learn about the religion, and with your knowledge you can protect your loved ones from this cult masquerading as a church.

No the Catholic Church does not recognize Mormon baptism. Because the LDS church does not recognize the trinity. They believe God has a body of flesh and bone, and that the three members of the Godhead are separate beings.

The Catholic church DOES recognize just about every other protestant religious baptism, for the very reason that those faiths also recognize the trinity.

Funny story . . .
I was born and raised Catholic but converted to Mormonism in my 20's. I married a Mormon man in the temple and pumped out/adopted a boatload of kids. When we left the LDS church, I chose to re-baptize all of my kids into the Catholic Church (which was a daunting task considering the vast age range of my children).

My two oldest teen girls had to go through RCIA class for a year and I went with them to brush up on my Catholicism. One night the Monsigneur (big boss priest) was teaching. My most "Mormon" daughter was furious to be converting (still felt an affinity for the Mormons) and started bitching to the Monsigneur about everything.

"Why do I have to be re-baptized?" she whined. "Why isn't my Mormon baptism good enough? What's wrong with the Mormon church?!"

"The Mormon Church is a CULT," father replied definitively.

My daughter was too stunned to reply.

I nearly spit my Diet Coke all over the Holy Spirit School library tables.

;o)



Edited 3 time(s). Last edit at 08/17/2011 07:08PM by shannon.

I have seen all kinds get baptised in even a couple living together (not married) with 3 daughters... just so long as they pay the 10% and it's ok. I don't think it really matters to them what you believe. Even drinking and smoking is fine if you don't do it in front of them they will turn a blind eye as long as the 10% to the mormon church is paid. But don't try paying it to another church or charity.

The missionaries will teach the bare minimum while pressuring you the whole time to get baptized. It is very common (maybe a requirement) for the missionaries to get you to commit to baptism on the second or third discussion/visit.

Joining another church requires study and enough attendance to shjow that you really are serious about the church. Missionaries typically consider you ready if you attend a couple meetings at the minimum.

Joining the Catholic church could take a year,more or less, joining the RLDS church could take several months, and many otherr churches also require this much time.

So the question is, why are the missionaries in such a hurry to get those numbers, and why do so many people join the church with very little understanding of its teachings and doctrines?

Don't.

Like smoking meth just one time, it's a real bad idea.

Just don't do it.

I'm a Catholic convert also. I've got friends and family who are Mormon, and I researched the Mormon faith to understand the teachings, not with any interest to become Mormon.

I'm happy as a Catholic. I made the informed, researched decision, I took the classes, and it was my choice.

Don't be fooled by similar terminology used by Mormons and Catholics. The Mormons rewrite their own dictionary when it comes to spiritual definitions.

One of the Mormon practices that REALLY chaps my hide is the "Baptism of the Dead" business. Mormons spend an unholy amount of time doing geneology research, just so they can take the list of dead relatives to the Temple and give them the post-death opportunity to become Mormon. As a convert to Catholicism, this offends me mightily. I already made my decision, and I don't need some descendant trying to change my posthumous mind.

Forget the fact that the practice doesn't make sense to any other faith. It's a matter of respect, IMHO.

You are right on the money with describing the conversion process for Catholics. There is no pressure whatsoever, and actually the convert must convince the baptizing priest that he or she is sincere in intentions.

The Mormon missionaries are salesmen trying to get their objectives: numbers. It's supposed to be six lessons, but long before the last lesson, they've got out their appointment books and want to know when the baptism can be scheduled. It's push-push-push.

My final two cents' worth is that the Vatican has made a statement that the Catholic Church does not recognize or accept a Mormon baptism. A Christian baptism is done "in the name of the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit." Since the Mormons don't believe in the Holy Trinity (the Holy Ghost is a minor player in the God game), it doesn't fit the definition. ANY Protestant baptism is considered valid by the Catholic Church. An interesting point is that a Catholic baptism is not accepted by many Protestant faiths, particularly the Baptist Church.


~VOW



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 08/17/2011 06:14PM by voweaver.

If I had been thinking, I would have realized that. In RCIA you are asked if you were baptized in the name of the Father, the Son, and the Holy Ghost -- if Mormon baptism does not include that then it makes sense the Catholic church would not accept it.

I always thought it was hilarious that Catholics were willing to accept Protestant baptisms but Protestants apparently don't think Catholic baptisms are valid. My original baptism was into the Assemblies of God, so it was full-immersion; Catholics go in more for sprinkling. I thought it was interesting that the Mormons go for full-immersion as well.

As for the baptism for the dead -- I read awhile back that the church got into trouble with the Elie Wiesel Foundation for posthumously baptizing Holocaust victims. That really chapped my hide. Those people were, literally, martyred for their faith -- and the Mormon church is making them posthumously gentile? What? How dare they? Who even THINKS of something like that?

voweaver Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
>
> ....My final two cents' worth is that the Vatican has
> made a statement that the Catholic Church does not
> recognize or accept a Mormon baptism. A Christian
> baptism is done "in the name of the Father, the
> Son, and the Holy Spirit." Since the Mormons
> don't believe in the Holy Trinity (the Holy Ghost
> is a minor player in the God game), it doesn't fit
> the definition. ANY Protestant baptism is
> considered valid by the Catholic Church. An
> interesting point is that a Catholic baptism is
> not accepted by many Protestant faiths,
> particularly the Baptist Church.
>
>
> ~VOW


The Lutherans except Catholic baptisms, I have never heard that many Protestant faiths don't except Catholic baptisms, I know that some faiths don't except infant baptisms.

I recommend it highly. It is accurate as to Mormonism and it is a good preparation for talking with Mormons.

http://www.exmormon.org/tract2.htm

I have taken the missionary discussions and have gone through the RCIA.

It's true, the missionaries try to rush you into baptism as quickly as possible, while telling you as little as possible about their "deeper" beliefs.

It's also true the Catholic Church wants you to know what you will be committing to if you join their church. They are open with what they believe.

When I was taking the discussions, I made it a point to be clear about my intentions. I only wanted to learn more about their church. I didn't want to be baptized. However, they always refered to "When you get baptized......" during these discussions, as if they "knew" I would join their church. That always infuriated me.

When I was in the RCIA, I never felt pressured to join their church. I already knew I wanted to BE Catholic. I just had to go through the formal formation process. Even if I had reached a point where I changed my mind and thought I wasn't ready to go through with becoming Catholic, I could always hold off and take my time, no questions asked.

Needless to say, I had a much better experience in the RCIA than what I did taking the missionary discussions. In the missionary dissusions, I was just served with the "milk" and no "meat". In the RCIA I was served with both.