So attending college away from the morg was the best move I've ever made! It's so nice to hear ideas unfiltered through a faith-promoting lens.

Anyhow, my psychology class lecture today was on psychometrics, particularly I.Q. The professor pointed out that Jews outscore gentiles by a whole 15 point on IQ tests. And that the reason for inter-group disparities in crime & income is because intelligence differs between groups.

Jews score 115
Asians " 105
Whites "100
Hispanics "90
Blacks " 85

Why are Jews so smart? Is there something about being the "chosen people"? I don't know whether to believe the bible (I know the book of moron is garbage!)

God chose His people and let them life in a rathole. Makes sense.

I don't want to accuse you of trolling, but this is your first post, and the kind of thing you say is being taught at your college sounds more like race-baiting and has little support in mainstream academia.

American Anthropological Association
Statement on "Race"
(May 17, 1998)
“The following statement was adopted by the Executive Board of the American Anthropological Association, acting on a draft prepared by a committee of representative American anthropologists. It does not reflect a consensus of all members of the AAA, as individuals vary in their approaches to the study of "race." We believe that it represents generally the contemporary thinking and scholarly positions of a majority of anthropologists.
________________________________________
In the United States both scholars and the general public have been conditioned to viewing human races as natural and separate divisions within the human species based on visible physical differences. With the vast expansion of scientific knowledge in this century, however, it has become clear that human populations are not unambiguous, clearly demarcated, biologically distinct groups.

Evidence from the analysis of genetics (e.g., DNA) indicates that most physical variation, about 94%, lies within so-called racial groups. Conventional geographic "racial" groupings differ from one another only in about 6% of their genes. This means that there is greater variation within "racial" groups than between them. In neighboring populations there is much overlapping of genes and their phenotypic (physical) expressions.

Throughout history whenever different groups have come into contact, they have interbred. The continued sharing of genetic materials has maintained all of humankind as a single species.
Physical variations in any given trait tend to occur gradually rather than abruptly over geographic areas. And because physical traits are inherited independently of one another, knowing the range of one trait does not predict the presence of others. For example, skin color varies largely from light in the temperate areas in the north to dark in the tropical areas in the south; its intensity is not related to nose shape or hair texture.

Dark skin may be associated with frizzy or kinky hair or curly or wavy or straight hair, all of which are found among different indigenous peoples in tropical regions. These facts render any attempt to establish lines of division among biological populations both arbitrary and subjective.

Historical research has shown that the idea of "race" has always carried more meanings than mere physical differences; indeed, physical variations in the human species have no meaning except the social ones that humans put on them. Today scholars in many fields argue that "race" as it is understood in the United States of America was a social mechanism invented during the 18th century to refer to those populations brought together in colonial America: the English and other European settlers, the conquered Indian peoples, and those peoples of Africa brought in to provide slave labor.

From its inception, this modern concept of "race" was modeled after an ancient theorem of the Great Chain of Being, which posited natural categories on a hierarchy established by God or nature. Thus "race" was a mode of classification linked specifically to peoples in the colonial situation. It subsumed a growing ideology of inequality devised to rationalize European attitudes and treatment of the conquered and enslaved peoples. Proponents of slavery in particular during the 19th century used "race" to justify the retention of slavery. The ideology magnified the differences among Europeans, Africans, and Indians, established a rigid hierarchy of socially exclusive categories underscored and bolstered unequal rank and status differences, and provided the rationalization that the inequality was natural or God-given. The different physical traits of African-Americans and Indians became markers or symbols of their status differences.

As they were constructing US society, leaders among European-Americans fabricated the cultural/behavioral characteristics associated with each "race," linking superior traits with Europeans and negative and inferior ones to blacks and Indians. Numerous arbitrary and fictitious beliefs about the different peoples were institutionalized and deeply embedded in American thought.

Early in the 19th century the growing fields of science began to reflect the public consciousness about human differences. Differences among the "racial" categories were projected to their greatest extreme when the argument was posed that Africans, Indians, and Europeans were separate species, with Africans the least human and closer taxonomically to apes.

Ultimately "race" as an ideology about human differences was subsequently spread to other areas of the world. It became a strategy for dividing, ranking, and controlling colonized people used by colonial powers everywhere. But it was not limited to the colonial situation. In the latter part of the 19th century it was employed by Europeans to rank one another and to justify social, economic, and political inequalities among their peoples. During World War II, the Nazis under Adolf Hitler enjoined the expanded ideology of "race" and "racial" differences and took them to a logical end: the extermination of 11 million people of "inferior races" (e.g., Jews, Gypsies, Africans, homosexuals, and so forth) and other unspeakable brutalities of the Holocaust.

"Race" thus evolved as a worldview, a body of prejudgments that distorts our ideas about human differences and group behavior. Racial beliefs constitute myths about the diversity in the human species and about the abilities and behavior of people homogenized into "racial" categories. The myths fused behavior and physical features together in the public mind, impeding our comprehension of both biological variations and cultural behavior, implying that both are genetically determined. Racial myths bear no relationship to the reality of human capabilities or behavior.

Scientists today find that reliance on such folk beliefs about human differences in research has led to countless errors.
At the end of the 20th century, we now understand that human cultural behavior is learned, conditioned into infants beginning at birth, and always subject to modification.

No human is born with a built-in culture or language. Our temperaments, dispositions, and personalities, regardless of genetic propensities, are developed within sets of meanings and values that we call "culture." Studies of infant and early childhood learning and behavior attest to the reality of our cultures in forming who we are.

It is a basic tenet of anthropological knowledge that all normal human beings have the capacity to learn any cultural behavior. The American experience with immigrants from hundreds of different language and cultural backgrounds who have acquired some version of American culture traits and behavior is the clearest evidence of this fact. Moreover, people of all physical variations have learned different cultural behaviors and continue to do so as modern transportation moves millions of immigrants around the world.

How people have been accepted and treated within the context of a given society or culture has a direct impact on how they perform in that society. The "racial" worldview was invented to assign some groups to perpetual low status, while others were permitted access to privilege, power, and wealth. The tragedy in the United States has been that the policies and practices stemming from this worldview succeeded all too well in constructing unequal populations among Europeans, Native Americans, and peoples of African descent.

Given what we know about the capacity of normal humans to achieve and function within any culture, we conclude that present-day inequalities between so-called "racial" groups are not consequences of their biological inheritance but products of historical and contemporary social, economic, educational, and political circumstances.”

Maybe it's just selection. Not too many of us survived hitler.

As for chosen, Jews think we are chosen for our task and you are chosen for yours. I.e. there is NO "one true religion." But I'm with Tevye, "Once in a while, God, couldn't you choose someone else?"

I think your professor is blowing smoke... or he/she hasn't done their homework, and is generalizing too much. A brief search found the following, that states there are also significant differences among subgroups:

"These highly successful minorities differ significantly in IQ subtest profiles. Ashkenazi Jews, for example, demonstrate verbal and mathematical scores more than one standard deviation above average, but visuospatial scores roughly one half standard deviation lower than the White average, whereas East Asians demonstrate high visuospatial scores, but average or slightly below average verbal scores. Concordantly, the professions in which these populations tend to be over-represented differ. The Asian pattern of subtest scores is found in fully assimilated third-generation Asian Americans, as well as in Inuits and Native Americans (both of Asian origin)."

http://psychology.wikia.com/wiki/Race_and_intelligence

This article states that Ashkenazi Jews - not all Jews in general - do score high in some aspects of intelligence tests, and differences in test scores (both high and low) do exist in and between different groups and subgroups.

By the way, what does the professor say about differences in racial groups in their adaptive behavior skills? For example:

"Mercer (1973) reported that on the basis of IQ alone 10 times as many Blacks as Whites would be classified as retarded, but when adaptive behavior measures are added to the criterion, this difference completely disapears. Some ethnic differences in cognitive ability appear in some aspects of cognitive ability and not others."

[same reference page as above]

STUDY!

And so can you!

When people, throughout their lifetimes, are expected to do well, or poorly in various endeavors, according to their ethnicities, they often fulfill those expectations. In addition, when literacy and verbal skills are stressed in a culture, those skills will generally emerge. The same goes for visual perceptual and spatial skills.

good summary, "another guy"

Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 11/04/2010 10:17PM by evolution.

Jews have to learn to read the Torah in Hebrew, so they know how to learn a foreign language from a young age. They have a long history of literacy because of this requirement, leading them to careers in medicine, banking, law and civil service. This has breed a culture where intellectual pursuits are greatly valued.

I don't believe your IQ stats, but Jews work hard and value education, so they are more successful professionally than other groups.

That's messed up. I'm a college professor and I tell my students early on not to make a fallacious appeal to authority -- in other words, just because your professors, or anyone else in authority, says something doesn't make it true.
The morg is famous for abusing true.

I agree with axe, it's not that one race is genetically "smarter" than the other, it's that Jewish families generally place a lot of emphasis on education and academia. The religion as a whole advocates learning from a young age.

It's actually just a cultural issue, not a genetic one.

I have read the studies and there does seem to be a disproportionate number of smart and well known Jews, particularly considering their small numbers, The big question is why.However, the professor did not pull it out of his ass. The studies are well known and somewhat controversial. Asians also scored well.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 11/05/2010 07:27PM by bona dea.

All those who identify as Jews, or who are identified by others as Jews, are incredibly diverse. They come from virtually all racial groups, as well as all--or almost all--of the numerically most important ethnicities.

There are black Jews (African-American as well as African-African), Asian Jews from many of the Asian regions and countries, Indian Jews from the sub-continent...Jews from just about everywhere except, perhaps, some of the tribal groups: Australian Aborigines, Native Americans, Amazonian native peoples, Inuit peoples, the Khoisan peoples of southern Africa, etc.

There are significant numbers of Jews from Ethiopia (who trace their history back to the Biblical Queen of Sheba), and many, many Jews from lands which are now Arabic speaking (Yemen, Iraq, Syria, Morocco, etc.).

In western, industrialized nations (in particular) it is true that, on average, "Jews" (the ones taking IQ tests) do test higher in IQ than "comparable" non-Jews who take IQ tests.

I really doubt that the same, and in the same percentages and numbers, could be said for Ethiopian Jews (who barely entered into the First World in the latter years of the twentieth-century), and the Yemenite Jews (of whom the same could be said as the Ethiopians).

The numbers you're citing refer to a specific sub-group of Jews, not to "Jews" in general.

Perhaps, but intelligence is not the same thing as being technically savvy.I'm sure there were geniuses in the stone age too. I do not recall the details of the study, but they did consider famous Jews in history whose IQs obviously were not tested because they lived before there was such a thing as testing.

I grew up with two college educated parents in a house full of books. My parents were actively involved with my school work and expected me to do well. I think this had a lot more to do with my academic and professional success than did my ethnicity.

I was lucky.

I agree with Bob T; everything he says is true of a huge percentage of western Jewish families. The Jewish people have historically been known as "the people of the Book" (meaning: the Bible), but the saying is even more true when phrased that Jews, overall, are "the people of BOOKS" (plural, and meaning books in general). Jews buy huge amounts of books, on literally every subject under the sun, and those books are READ.

There are two other characteristics which I think are important when it comes to the relationship between being a Jew and having a higher-than-average IQ.

The first is: Jews DEBATE. They do this almost reflexively; it is so much a part of Jewish culture that it's the equivalent of oxygen.

There is a very old Jewish story about the son of a deeply observant Jewish rabbi, who one day approaches his father with a confession he is sure will surely cause him to be expelled from the family: he is an atheist. When he is finally able to get the words out, there is a moment of deep silence as his father absorbs the gravity of what his son has just told him. Then the rabbi abruptly jumps up, out of his chair, calls to his wife to bring wine and food for celebration, and begins dancing around the room, his face alight with happiness. "At last, my son," he says. "NOW we can begin to TALK."

He had been waiting for this moment for all of his son's life--the moment when his son would enter into the neverending Jewish debate about life, and thus become a real adult (regardless of his chronological age).

People who grow up in families where there is always reasoned intellectual debate going on tend to not only develop their own intellectual powers to the utmost, they also tend to choose life partners who want that too. And as this pattern is repeated through the generations, the kids do tend to become smarter and smarter, as nature and nuture seamlessly work together towards exactly that end.

There is one other thing that I think I am the only person to have ever noticed. (Jews don't notice it because they take it for granted, in a fish-living-in-water way. Non-Jews don't notice because they seldom "see" this, even when it's in front of their eyes.)

On average, Jews develop a highly sophisticated sense of timelines and history DECADES before non-Jews do (assuming that the non-Jews ever do, because most or many do not). This sense of history, of being able to think, and to FEEL, the difference between a hundred years ago, and three hundred years ago, and one or two or three or four millennia ago, develops "naturally," and at very young ages in most Jews lives. The way the religious holidays and observances are, Jews are constantly conjuring with the differences in time: "this" happened before the Romans (for example), "that" happened a thousand years or more after the Romans, the Inquisition went on for centuries (until the mid-1800s), and Israel became a country in 1948. Unless individual Jews can deal with a timeline of about five thousand years or so, Jewish culture is basically incomprehensible. So kids, from pre-kindergarten on, grow up learning real history (even the mythic parts are the historical equivalents of the Illiad and Odyssey), and they progressively develop a huge historical timeline in their heads that is--to my knowledge--unmatched in non-Jewish culture. This requires individual intellectual development, and by the time they're going through school, they've already got several huge steps up on several essential learning disciplines (history, math, literature, and at least some foreign language) compared to kids their own chronological age who are not raised in culturally Jewish homes. (This has nothing to do with religion, by the way. Jewish atheist parents raise and teach their kids these things as much as more observant parents do--and maybe a whole lot more than some VERY religious Jewish parents--but much of the time, Jewish kids just "naturally" operate in a different, and more advanced, intellectual world than most non-Jewish kids.)

There is one last factor: within Jewish culture, being smart is cool. This has always been true: the smartest males and females are and always have been the most desirable marital partners, because going back centuries for probably three thousand years now, it was obvious to everyone that two smart parents generally produce smarter kids than the alternatives.

There are undoubtedly other elements involved in answering the question of why tested Jewish IQs are so much higher on average than are non-Jews, on average, but I think that these are at least some of the important factors which enter into the "why."



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 11/05/2010 11:25AM by tevai.

I once worked with an engineer from India. Somebody in our office stated that a tavern in our (US) city had been in business since 1940, and said "that is a long time."

The Hindu guy said "Not really. My family has been farming the same sorghum field for hundreds of years."

Somebody else said "Your village must be boring."

Hindu guy said "Not really. Mongols came through. Alexander came through. British came through. Always something happening in my village."

Bob T Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> I once worked with an engineer from India.
> Somebody in our office stated that a tavern in our
> (US) city had been in business since 1940, and
> said "that is a long time."
>
> The Hindu guy said "Not really. My family has
> been farming the same sorghum field for hundreds
> of years."
>
> Somebody else said "Your village must be boring."
>
> Hindu guy said "Not really. Mongols came through.
> Alexander came through. British came through.
> Always something happening in my village."

Yes, this is EXACTLY what I was talking about. :-)

"Moses dragged us for 40 years through the desert to bring us to the one place in the Middle East where there was no oil."

-Golda Meir

Many of them were murdered throughout history. Many of the smartest ones survived and passed along their genes.

Huge percentages of them compared to other groups are doctors and scientists, writers and musical geniuses.

NOT

Both my neighbors growing up were Jewish. One was a holocaust survivor and always warned us kids not to take a good situation for granted because things can change for the worst in a heartbeat.

In the old days, in Europe, Jews were like gypsies and could not own land because the established families owned land and so they were locked out. The only thing they could do was trade and so that is why there are so many Jewish bankers and brokers. Of course they got rich being traders and bankers. This of course made them scapegoats when economies turned for the worst and the citizens and government turned on them.

Jews realize things can turn on them and so they want to invest in something universally marketable and portable in case they have to leave one country for another one quickly.

They educate themselves for this reason because the parents and grandparents had this fear in the back of their minds. The pressure is to become a medical professional, a lawyer, an engineer, a banker, ect... Nothing makes Jewish parents more upset than hearing their children say they are dropping out of school or want to become an artist. They will always get the big lecture on becoming something someone in the world wants instead of a goof ball living in the moment. It's about being wanted everywhere because of having highly sought after expertise more than anything.

various cultures have placed on education.
Nothing to do with RACE.

Agreed.

Jews are not a race. Jews exist in ALL races.

I find racial generalization of any kind very offensive. And I would also question the method by which these statistics were gathered. It sounds like your professor is blowing smoke to me.
Someone remind me of the old saying? 80% of statistics are made up on the spot? I would venture to say that the average person does not know their IQ. Not to mention the many people who have multi-ethnic origins and are not mentioned.

I have more difficulty relating to people whose culture is very different than my own - not at all on race or nationality

For example - I cant relate at ALL to TBMs or Christian Fundies.
My experinence with Black people relates to education which is important in their family - and that goes for everyone else too.

Here is a site with some interesting links concerning Jewish archievements.

http://www.jewishachievement.com/domains/end.html

My take on the subject is that Jewish people, always being scrutinized wherever they lived, tend to work extra hard to prove themselfs. It appears that the Ashkenazim tends to outdo the Serphardim a bit, simply, because Europe put more emphasis on education.

oh, and btw. @ dr5, it was Tevye, not Yankel who lamented: "God, why don't you chose someone else".

I know my Broadway shows. Must be all that Ashkenazic smartness. :)

Amen, bro :^)

Sorry, BaGirl! The Ashkenasim are primarily from Eastern Europe, Germany Austria and Russia as well. The post diaspora Sephardim comes from Spain.

I have two doctorates, my dad had a PhD, my brother is a human doctor, and my mom is a college graduate.

There you go dr5. Stereotyping can be truth at times :)

A lot of IQ test use questions fo aldults use situations from life experiences.

EX If you need milk and go to the store and find it is closed when you get there what do you do?

A.Go to a different store to get milk
B.Go home without milk
C.Go to the farmer ask for milk

What do you choose? It depens on where you live and what your life is like. Mabye you drive to another store, but what if in your neighbourhoood there is only 1, If you grew up in the projects have you ever seen a farmer? This question was on IQ tests for years, the "correct" answer is A, but a lot of black people would answer B and get it wrong. To most of us driving to another store would make sence, but to a large part of the poorer population B is the only answer because there was only one store in the neighbourhood.

EI (emotional Intellegence), tests are a much better judge of how poeple will do in life

The study not only included IQ scores but the percentage of well known Jews such as Jesus, Spinoza, MArx. Einstein and so on. The number was disproprtionately high.

The would not have written or believed in most of the utter CRAP that is the Old Testament.

Though controversial, the Bell Curve will provide answers. Race is only a factor when one doesn't consider environment and culture which have subtle, long term effects on IQ. Also, IQ questions are frequently culturally biased. It can't be helped; someone has to write the questions. Besides, IQ is only one part of what makes us who we are. Though IQs run above average in my family, many of us suffer debilitating depression and anxiety. IQ doesn't exist in a vacuum.

As a public school teacher for 36 years, I was always impressed by my Jewish students. I never had one that wasn't above average. I have often wondered how this could be.

I don't believe in the "chosen people" idea but they are doing something that seems to put them on another plain. When I think of the fact that they are only 10 million on this planet and yet they are disproportionatly represented as Nobel Prize winners.

There is almost no field that they don't excel i.e. medicine, music, math, all of the sciences among just a few.

A few years back there was a contest to design plans for the new
World Trade Center. The winner was a young Jewish archetect. This same person was also performing as a pianist at Carnegie Hall. So there he is at the top of his game in two wonderful fields. I wish I could excel in just one.

Think of almost any academic field and you will find Jewish leaders. In the last century, three names (among others) stand out.....Eienstein, Freud, and Marx.

I don't believe in "God's Chosen People" but they surely are doing something right.

Apfvrf

Jewish. And having a degree or a profession doesn't mean you are smart. I've known complete fools with PhD's.

Is it due to cultural/family expectations?

When I moved to a rural area, the school was geared to turning out farm labourers.

My parents moved us to a neighbouring town and the school there was geared to turning out workers at the MOD Ordnance base or a large engineering plant.

No one expected any better of the kids, so most of them started work on the farm or at the ordnance depot or the factory.

Is it that culturally and by their families, Jews were expected to do great things so are encouraged to flourish? Whilst a poor black kid in a ghetto is not expected to do very much with their life, so probably doesn't?

matt Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Is it due to cultural/family expectations?
>
> > Is it that culturally and by their families, Jews
> were expected to do great things so are encouraged
> to flourish? Whilst a poor black kid in a ghetto
> is not expected to do very much with their life,
> so probably doesn't?


I think this is a big part of it. In a very large percentage of Jewish families, and within Jewish culture, people are supposed to take whatever-they-were-born-with (intellectually...and as talents such as music, etc.), and develop those innate abilities to the max.

The difference between most Jewish upbringing and the other examples you cite is that within Jewish culture, this cultural and familial expectation (which, during childhood and adolescence becomes an internalized drive within the individual) is often fairly much detached from socio-economic and geographic "barriers." The poorest, most unfortunate Jewish kid, given innate ability, talent, and drive, is usually able (by some means or another) to get educated and to achieve at levels roughly comparable to the "richest" kid. Depending on the particular place involved and the time in history, this may be through patronage, or scholarships, or wise use of educational loans, but if there ARE "means" (i.e., the situation is not just totally hopeless), those means will generally be connected with and utilized to their ultimate potential.

Also: throughout Jewish history miserably poor but brilliant students have been and are often sought out and valued by comparatively more well-to-do families as marriage partners, because good brains well utilized (whose DNA will be passed on to that family's future generations) are more important to those families than inherited wealth or socio-economic status.

In the examples you talk about in your post, this kind of cultural and community support doesn't really exist, except in some much "larger," but often seemingly unavailable, context: national scholarships, etc. The gifted kid born into the examples you cite has a very rough go ahead of her or him, and the truth is that, most of the time, they just aren't able or allowed to succeed to the level of their natural abilities.

Which is why we need scholarships and support (educational, intellectual, financial, and social) for the best, brightest, and most talented of all of the younger generations growing up, regardless of the circumstances of any of their births. When I think of all the great innate potential wasted because those who had it were born into less-than-ideal circumstances, I mourn.