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Posted by: anon for this ( )
Date: August 08, 2011 02:50PM

Where the BofM imaginary stories allegedly occurred is becoming divisive among some LDS members. It used to be commonly claimed that the BofM encompassed the entire western hemisphere of both North and South America, with Cumorah in New York being the location of the final battle.

Today there are two major geographical ideas. The first is that all of the BofM events played out in a very limited region of Meso-America. This requires two hill Cumorahs, one in Meso-America where the events happened and the second one in New York where the plates were buried.

The other idea is known as the Heartland theory. It proposes that the BofM events played out in the region of the United States, with only one hill Cumorah for the final battle at the same location where Joseph Smith claimed to have found the gold plates.

Instead of examining which of these geographical theories might or might not fit the BofM and early LDS writings, lets consider how neither can possibly agree with reality, based on what is now known about the development of agriculture, metallurgy and civilization in both North and South America.

Mormon ideas and manure

The BofM describes the peopling of America beginning about 2200 BC with the Tower of Babel and the Jaradites. It says they used watertight barges made of wood. The story includes magic glowing stones for light inside these windowless submarines.

Agricultural seeds, honey bees and flocks of animals from the Near East were transported to America. They also brought plants used for livestock feed. It does not say what these plants and animals were but the BofM claims that after their arrival in America, the Jaradites lived with elephants, horses, swine, sheep, cattle and asses.

The fictional people from Lehi began around 600 BC in Israel and they too made a transoceanic crossing. This group mentions seeds and grains including barley and wheat in America as well as horses and chariots, iron, copper, brass, steel, gold and silver.

A third group also came from Jerusalem to America approximately 580 BC. They are commonly called the Mulekites. These were the people who encountered the last surviving Jaradite. The Mulekites became assimilated with the people of Lehi.

Great civilizations were from these people, based on agriculture, livestock and metallurgy. Full scale warfare also happened, bringing the destruction of these civilizations.

The BofM "prophesied" that after the Europeans were to arrive beginning with Columbus, America's indigenous people would be driven, scattered and destroyed, but not all of them. They would eventually "blossom as the rose" and be restored from their devolved and degenerate condition to their former Christian state of advanced civilization. They would be nurtured and carried by the "gentiles" until then, meaning the European colonizers of the Americas would be "nursing fathers and mothers".

The BofM is supposedly written for the descendants of these fallen and depraved people, so that they will know their real ancestors, will become LDS and be restored to their place in "the Lord's true church".

Mormonism teaches that the second coming of Jesus will not happen until after America's indigenous people have become righteous and respected.

The LDS had commonly thought that all of America's indigenous people came from the Near East, as written in the BofM. Many mormon scholars made allowance for "others" like the Mulekites, that came from Israel but whose records have not been revealed yet.

Since 2007 the meaning of "others" has been expanded. Mormon apologists now include descendants of ice-age people who crossed Beringia more than 10,000 years ago. They use these people who originated before Adam and Eve to explain the failure to find DNA signatures from the Near East.

The popular consensus among apologists is that DNA haplotypes from the fertile crescent have been diluted into a mass population of people whose ancestors anciently migrated into America out of Asia long before the Biblical timeline, even before Adam and Eve.

At the end of the day, all of these mormon ideas will turn a person's thoughts into manure. Even worse, an entire group of living people are degraded by this fictional pseudo-history.

The unique accomplishments and contributions to the world from America's first inhabitants are often ignored by LDS people if things are not in the BofM. If any accomplishments are acknowledged, they are falsely credited to people from the fertile crescent. This is a very harmful aspect of the BofM. The highjacking of culture and history in the name of a fraudulent religion that began in the 19th century needs to end.

Let's examine some of the most significant accomplishments made by America's indigenous people. These are things that get ignored because the facts do not fit the BofM religious myths.

Agriculture

To believe the BofM, one would conclude that Old World seeds, crops and animals were brought to America but disappeared before Columbus. Many LDS have reasoned that because the people turned against the God of the Bible and killed each other, they destroyed their own civilizations and caused their animals and crops to die off and disappear.

The reality is that agriculture developed independently in different parts of the world. For example, there is no book translated from magic golden plates describing people from Jerusalem taking seeds and knowledge into ancient China, teaching people there how to plant and grow crops. Plant domestications happened without the need for outsiders to bring an "advanced" method.

Independent plant domestication happened in South America, Meso-America and in Eastern North America, without cultural diffusion between these regions. It does not support the BofM fictional claim of Near Eastern domesticated plants brought to America and grown. Because indigenous American plants were domesticated in numerous locations without influence from other regions, none of the BofM geography models agree with agricultural reality.

The truth is that more than half of all the world's crops now in cultivation were first domesticated in the Americas long before the time periods alleged in the BofM stories. America's indigenous people have contributed more than 300 food crops to the world.

Until Columbus arrived, these plants were unknown to the rest of the world: avocados, lima beans, kidney beans, shell beans, string beans etc., chocolate, cassava, chicle, chilies, corn, hickory nuts, jicama, maple syrup, manioc, papayas, peanuts, pecans, peppers, persimmons, pineapples, potatoes, pumpkins, squashes, sunflower seeds, sweet potatoes, tapioca, tomatoes, vanilla and long-fiber cotton.

America's indigenous people were not only sophisticated botanists, they developed new types of corn through hybridization. They learned to plant corn, beans and squash together to reduce plant loss to insects. This ancient technique known as the three sisters is still used today, minimizing soil depletion and overuse of pesticides.

They developed irrigation and water conservation. They also domesticated alpaca, dogs, ducks, guineas pigs, honey bees, llama, turkeys and vicuna.

Some of the most important crops in the world today are corn, potatoes, manioc (a staple in parts of Africa) and the American sweet potato.

In the 21st century, a new food crop is being studied by NASA for long term space travel. It is none other than an ancient domesticated American plant called Chenopodium quinoa. It had been a staple of the Inca Empire for many centuries.

None of these plants or animals are mentioned in the BofM, and no BofM prophet predicted the agricultural contributions to the world that America's people would make. Instead, the mormon scriptures tell of a fallen and immoral people who needed the true church of the mormons to raise them back up before the second coming of christ.

The reality is that the world owes a debt of gratitude to America's indigenous people for their agricultural achievements.

Now let's examine some accomplishments that are acknowledged but wrongly attributed to people from the Near East.

Metallurgy

One of the oldest European ideas is that human progress is marked by when stone and metals were used. Christians tied it to the Bible, beginning with Adam about 6,000 years ago.

The stone, bronze and iron ages became theories in archaeology. It was thought that superior people first left the stone age and used metals. These same ones also invented agriculture, domesticated animals and used iron and wheels. Christians claimed that it all began in the Bible lands of the Fertile Crescent and then spread to the rest of the world. Scientists are now discovering how wrong these ideas have been.

People have been mining and cold working copper in the Great Lakes basin of North America for 7,000 years. They were doing this in Minnesota, Michigan and Wisconsin before God made Adam and Eve according to the Bible. They used the copper for ornaments and trade items before they developed agriculture and domesticated crops. Archaeologists used to think that metal work only happened after civilizations began in the Near East.

Great Lakes copper is very pure. They did not melt it for casting in molds because it was easily shaped cold or by heating without needing to melt it.

South America worked with copper too. Because it is not as pure as in the Great Lakes region, Andean people discovered the process of smelting 4,000 years ago to separate the copper from the rock, as well as working with gold and silver. Archaeologists now know that many people throughout the world independently learned how to smelt. America did it without needing anyone from anywhere else in the world coming to them to teach them how.

By 400 AD the people in South America were making bronze. Andean mariners traded their metal work up and down the western coast and about 800 AD they taught the people of western Mexico how to smelt.

Mormon apologists and writers are quick to point out that metal was worked in the Americas, but this is often used to argue that the making of the gold plates was not impossible. Some writers suggest that the use of metal in America might be evidence that people from the Near East brought that art and knowledge to America.

Take a serious look at the timelines of the BofM compared to reality. Copper work in North America was being done even before the time of Adam and Eve. Copper smelting in South America happened before Lehi, but bronze was not made until nearly the end of the BofM stories and was not in the popular geography of Meso-America until long after the fictional stories had ended.

Consider the apologist's geography theories. No smelting was done in the region of the United States. So much for the heartland theory. Likewise, smelting and bronze making was not done in the region of Meso-America until nearly 400 years after the gold plates were allegedly buried and the civilization of Nephites destroyed. The Limited Geography Theory is not supported with metallurgy.

Ancient American metal work does not fit in with the BofM stories of fantasy, while reality does not get talked about when it does not support the BofM.


Writing

Writing is found in Meso-America. Pictographs expressed meaning and many were adapted to denote sound values. Apologists have grabbed onto this as evidence to support the BofM. But this is how writing independently began in all other places in the world that developed it.

Cuneiform record keeping began in Mesopotamia around 5000 years ago. It was later adapted for writing, then was replaced by the Phoenician alphabet beginning about 2,900 years ago.

There is something very unique in America that apologists rarely mention. Quipu were knotted cords of different colors that were used for record keeping in America, beginning at almost the same time that marks on clay tablets began in Mesopotamia.

A 4,600 year old quipu was found in South America which may be one of the earliest forms of communication in the world, roughly as old as the cuneiform of Mesopotamia.

America's people were doing the same thing as in Mesopotamia, but keeping records with knotted cords instead of marks on clay tablets. And they were doing this before the fictional Jaradites came. The quipu were also used for performing addition, subraction, multiplication and division, and as mnemonic devices, to help recall long passages of memorized material.

An elite class of people were taught to read and use the quipu. Ceremonies and gatherings were crucial because the record keepers shared information and history at these times. The Spanish considered the quipu to be idolatrous and destroyed many of them. They forbid ceremonies where information was shared. This was the same as destroying books.

Apologists promote the Mayan glyphs (which have no correspondence to BofM stories) while ignoring the quipu, a highly effective system for the Andean people and the Inca civilization. The earliest stages of record keeping in America happened before the BofM stories began, and in a geographical region outside of Meso-America. Imagine that!

Finally, let's examine accomplishments that happened after the final battle of fantasy in the BofM, after the people were supposedly reduced to barbarianism and wickedness and cursed for destroying god's people.

The BofM ends with descriptions of depraved and degenerate people who tortured and murdered each other, raped women and practiced cannabilism, even feeding women and children to their own husbands and fathers. It leaves the reader with the thought that America's indigenous people remained in that condition, waiting for the arrival of Columbus to bring the influence of Christianity. It leaves the reader thinking that the BofM and Joseph Smith were great things from God in order to improve America's indignous people.

LDS members might think they know the history of ancient America better because of the BofM, but how many mormons take an interest in real history and events between 421 AD and 1492? If America's people were truthfully described at the end of the BofM, it would seem that nothing of significance should have happened after Moroni buried the plates.

Some mormons might think that whatever happened during those centuries, it is not as important as what happened after God led Christian people to America beginning with Columbus. This is another harmful influence of mormonism. A writing of fiction causes otherwise reasonable people to think of human beings as degraded and with little accomplishment. It plants the idea that mormons hold the truth and can "save" these "depraved" ones.

Brain Surgery

America's indigenous people, these depraved and degenerate savages, were far more advanced in medicine and surgery than most people in the U.S. even know.

Scientists were collecting skulls to study the primitive races in America, and in the 1860s a very precise and neatly perforated prehistoric skull was found.

Ever since then, people have argued about what the holes were for. One of the most popular ideas is that the holes were made to let out demons.

It is now beginning to be realized that these holes were emergency surgery to remove shattered bone and clean out pooling blood after a blow to the head.

More trepanned skulls have been found in the Andean region of Peru than the rest of the world together. The skulls span two thousand years, from around 400 BC to AD 1500, showing improvements in surgical techniques and a remarkable increase in the survival of patients to a level that rivals that under today's surgeons.

In Europe and America in the 19th century and early 20th century, surgeons operating on the skull were lucky to save 25 per cent of patients. The Incas had a success rate of around 80 per cent, using stone age tools.

This was not in Meso-America or in the region of the United States, it was not in the locations of currently popular BofM geography models. The period after the BofM tales ended brought the most significant improvements in emergency medical surgeries and survival rates. The Andean people developed the methods into a medical art. This completely disagrees with the LDS stereotype of America's savage indigenous people after the final battle in the BofM.

Cahokia

The Mississippi and Ohio river valleys were the locations of ancient agriculture and cities. The Hopewell culture and Cahokia are some of the best examples.

Until La Salle's travels in the 1670s, no European had ever ventured into these areas.

Between 600 and 1400 AD, an ancient indigenous city was located near St. Louis. Today it is known as Cahokia. By the time La Salle visited it, it's glory had already faded nearly 300 years earlier.

A Catholic mission site was established at Cahokia in 1699. This was the first permanent European settlement on the Mississippi River, but the ancient city was not recognized or understood by the first Europeans.

In 1811 an American named Henry Brackenridge heard about some French monks living near large mounds. He visited them to see the ruins.

From a letter to Thomas Jefferson by Henry Brackenridge, July 25, 1813 -

"When I examined it in 1811, I was astonished that this stupendous monument of antiquity should have been unnoticed by any traveler"

The writers at that time did not know how recent or how old the ancient ruins were. Much was open to the imagination, and fiction such as the BofM was quite popular.

Monks Mound at Cahokia is the largest man-made earthen mound in North America. It is an echo of the most sophisticated prehistoric civilization north of Mexico. In 1250 AD the city was larger than London.

The people and culture of Cahokia had declined because of climate changes, but further to the south, de Vaca, de Sota and La Salle had seen many others still living the cultural ways as they had been in Cahokia before the mini ice-age began.

In the 1960s archaeologists discovered that the people of Cahokia had set up posts in circular arcs. These were used as a calendar to mark the solstice and perhaps the rising or setting of bright stars or constellations.

Today it is known as Woodhenge and had been built in the period from 900 to 1100 AD. One of the circles was 410 feet in diameter and had 48 posts. Each post was 15 to 20 inches in diameter and stood about 20 feet high.

The truth is quite different from mormon delusions of cursed dark skin people, depraved and wicked, killing and eating each other.

Mormon apostle Boyd K. Packer once stated "Some things that are true are not very useful." As an outsider to his faith, I can only see the harm that mormonism causes to all indigenous people in the Americas through the denigration of their history and culture.

Now apologists have created the MDL to defend their right to promote fiction no matter how harmful it is to America's first inhabitants. It seems the time is ripe for America's indigenous people, archaeologists, anthropologists, etc. to turn up the pressure in challenging the pseudo claims of mormonism.

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Posted by: Stunted ( )
Date: August 08, 2011 03:23PM


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Posted by: Leah ( )
Date: August 08, 2011 03:35PM

There never were any Nephites or Lamanites. The Book of Mormon is fiction.

DNA clearly shows that the American Indians are NOT of Semitic descend. They came from Asia.

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Posted by: Sperco ( )
Date: August 08, 2011 03:59PM

I can see using "Anon for this" when you are talking about deeply personal stuff, but why would you not want credit for such a good thread, with nothing personal in it?

Thanks for the info, Anon for this!

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Posted by: The Man in Black ( )
Date: August 08, 2011 04:24PM

I thought that too. And this should be on the short topics.

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Posted by: baura ( )
Date: August 08, 2011 04:13PM

anon for this Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------

> The BofM describes the peopling of America
> beginning about 2200 BC with the Tower of Babel
> and the Jaradites.

That's 300 years AFTER the great pyramid of Giza was constructed.


> To believe the BofM, one would conclude that Old
> World seeds, crops and animals were brought to
> America but disappeared before Columbus.

Not only that but that their seeds and spores (which are VERY long lasting) also somehow disappeared from the paleobotanical record.

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Posted by: baura ( )
Date: September 07, 2011 10:33PM

baura Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> anon for this Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
>
> > The BofM describes the peopling of America
> > beginning about 2200 BC with the Tower of Babel
> > and the Jaradites.
>
> That's 300 years AFTER the great pyramid of Giza
> was constructed.

And 900 years after Narmer unified upper and lower Egypt into one nation.

> > To believe the BofM, one would conclude that
> Old
> > World seeds, crops and animals were brought to
> > America but disappeared before Columbus.
>
> Not only that but that their seeds and spores
> (which are VERY long lasting) also somehow
> disappeared from the paleobotanical record.

Not to mention the language. I'm still waiting for one, JUST ONE, example of a valid pre-Columbian Hebrew or Egyptian or a hybrid Hebraic-Egyptian inscription to be found anywhere in either North or South America.

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Posted by: Emma's Flaming Sword ( )
Date: August 08, 2011 06:52PM

I love to compare and contrast true Native American history with Mormon mythology. It seems every time I study actual history I find the BoM more ludicrous.

Something that I noticed when I was reading about weaponry in Meso America is that the bow and arrow came late to this region, like 500 AD. That’s a big oops for Samuel the Lamanite dodging arrows on the wall.

So many anachronisms, so little time.

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Posted by: amos2 ( )
Date: August 08, 2011 08:50PM

So, one of the many things I can't BELIEVE I fell for was that God was the reaper on the Native Americans. He sent conqistadors and diseases and efficiently wiped out 90% of the population (a fact that was readily observable by 1800, and the Book of Mormon's "prophecy" of Columbus was older then than the book is now).
Well, God's an asshole already, but it gets worse.
Now apologists inform us that there was plenty of room in the Americas and the Book of Mormon for the 15,000+ year population by Asiatic peoples who crossed at the Bering Straight.
So let me get this straight- they'd already been here over 10,000 years when the first Book of Mormon peoples arrived. Then for over 2,000 years, Book of Mormon civiliations which are SPECIFIED in the book as having populations of MILLIONS, coexist and 1)find territory to occupy and 2)have so little interaction that they don't mention them? OK, I'll even GIVE it to you...let's say that yes, the Book of Mormon populations were either too few, or mixed in thoroughly with the hemispheric population, but they were here!
So then God inflicted a WHOLE lot of collateral damage in His Holy Genocide campaign to restore Christianity to the Americas! Fuck, what was the ratio of Lamanites to Asiatic Native Americans in the culling, 1:100? 1:1,000? Really, how many asiatic Amerindians were sucked into the haulocast intended for just a few Lamanites?

OMG, I have to stop because the asininity is making me mad.

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Posted by: newcomer ( )
Date: August 08, 2011 10:31PM

Very well written. Even a nevermo like me could follow along.

About two years ago my Mormon friend's parents went to Peru. And be told me Mormons believe the BoM took place there.

To think, his barely making it parents wasted their money on such nonsense. And of course came up empty.

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Posted by: kdog ( )
Date: August 08, 2011 10:51PM

Awesome post, I love reading this kind of stuff! :)

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Posted by: mrtranquility ( )
Date: August 09, 2011 10:15AM

Who was the most powerful political and military force in Europe 2,000 years ago? The Romans. How do we know this? They left their sh!t everywhere. They had a written language, refined metals, buildings and other structures, and a language that left a huge lasting influence on virtually all European languages.

According to the BoM the Lamanites/Nephites had all these same characteristics. Yet not a single unmistakeably Nephite/Lamanite artifact has been found. No language written or spoken in the New World in the Americas bears any resemblance to an Old World language from 600 B.C.

Applying Occam's Razor, what are the odds that a whole extensive sophisticated culture lasting a millennium would disappear without a trace? The obvious conclusion is that it never did exist, and the BoM is a work of fiction.

You can go into all the minutiae of historical anachronisms in the book, etc., but outside of LDS, Inc. no one bothers, since it doesn't even merit lifting a finger to pursue it.

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Posted by: Jesus Smith ( )
Date: August 09, 2011 10:34AM

Great post, anon.

I would add one tidbit or two:

Sheep--Ammon and the Lamanite king speak of herding sheep. Jesus talks about sheep. Sheep were a very common topic among the nephites/lamanites. None are to be found in remains or among the N/S native Americans pre-col.

Utopian Society of 30-200 CE. Supposedly after Americhrist visited (after destroying more than a dozen large cities, leaving the more righteous part of the people in whatever limited geography they were in--as limited as a multimillion person population and 15-city culture can be), Jesus left the Nephites as a developing nation that spread industriously across all the land. They did away with sacrifice, war, slavery, racism, and had all things in common. They progressed in the sciences (engineering) and in understanding. Just read 4 Nephi. This lasted for nearly 200 years. This is an unprecedented society that all worship, unambiguously, Christ. The Greeks didn't even achieve so lofty of peace and progress in more than 500 years.

There would be warehouses full of evidence collected from ruins and excavated sites from such a civilization. A few dozen vikings (norse sailors) visited a remote part of Canada 1000 years ago, just for a summer. And we have labs full of evidence to support their summer vacation here. The Nephites/Lamanites had millions here, and at one time were a society like no other in history. And we can find...exactly nothing left.

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Posted by: Richard the Bad ( )
Date: August 09, 2011 11:02AM

Very good write up. Just one small nitpick:

"Independent plant domestication happened in South America, Meso-America and in Eastern North America, without cultural diffusion between these regions."

You may want to look at the domesticaton of corn.

http://newswatch.nationalgeographic.com/2009/03/23/corn_domesticated_8700_years_ago/

It definately was domesticated in Mexico, and then spread out to other parts of Americas. In fact, trade and cross cultural interaction was much more extensive than many people realize.

For example: Obsidian from Obsidian Cliff in Yellowstone has been found in prehistoric contexts in New York State. Parrots from the Yucatan have been found in Chaco Canyon. Dentalium shell from Vancouver Island found in the Great Plains. Caltinite from Minnesota throughout North America, etc.

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Posted by: anon for this ( )
Date: August 09, 2011 11:31AM

Your clarification is valuable. I see now how the way I wrote was not clear about what I was thinking.

There were four plants I was thinking about, but corn was not one of them: marshelder (Iva annua), chenopod (Chenopodium berlandieri), squash (Cucurbita pepo), and sunflower (Helianthus annuus).

My source was "Eastern North America as an independent center of plant domestication"

http://www.pnas.org/content/103/33/12223.full

I only wanted to make a point that people have initially domesticated specific plants on their own.

I'm glad you brought up the corn, obsidian, etc. It really drives home how fictional wheat and barley from Lehi's people did not spread but real corn and other items did.

Thank you Richard.

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Posted by: Outcast ( )
Date: August 09, 2011 11:54AM

Masonry has a large body of stories or lore. I have come across those involving "neophytes" and "laymen".

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Posted by: glass-3/4 full ( )
Date: August 09, 2011 12:14PM

I love it when THNKING people discuss things that actually make sense!!!!! I feel like my brain just had a "breakfast for champions"!!!!!

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Posted by: anonimous ( )
Date: September 07, 2011 08:19AM

Where does it state that the Nephites and/or lamanites lived in South or Central America?

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Posted by: WinksWinks ( )
Date: September 07, 2011 11:42AM

"It" doesn't say anything about anywhere, except the fictional placenames in the bom.
Being a work of fiction, "it" took place in gullible peoples minds and was also plagiarized from other works of fiction.

Now, apologists argue over the real world setting for their book of fiction. THEY have suggested various places, including central/south America

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Posted by: ipseego ( )
Date: September 07, 2011 08:39AM

To understand the Book of Mormon we have to study what Americans around 1830 believed about American prehistory. Then we have to add their ideas about religion and history - and it all fits together. Then there is no need at all to consider the Book of Mormon anything other than fiction, written in the days of Joseph Smith, Jr.

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Posted by: lulu ( )
Date: September 07, 2011 01:45PM

"study what Americans around 1830 believed about American prehistory"

What they thought was that Native Americans came from Israel but could never have built the fantastic mounds that were being discovered in the mid-west. So they decided there must have been a superior race that Native Americans annihilated.


Could a late teenager early 20 something have written a bad novel about this? Yes.

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Posted by: Ex-Lamanite ( )
Date: September 07, 2011 09:41AM

Thanks 'anon for this' for posting.

The whole Book of Mormon myth contains overt forms of racism when it claims that dark skin is the result of wickedness and that white skin indicates favor with God.

But it also contains subtle forms of racism. The Book of Mormon suggests that the indigenous people of North and South America were not intelligent enough to develop such magnificent civilizations on their own, at least not without the help of some superior, 'white and delightsome' benefactors. White Americans of the 19th century had no interest in seeing the cultural and technological advancements of Native people, so they had to invent an appropriate mythology to explain the archaeology.

The whole thing is disgusting. Thanks for exposing the truth in such an eloquent manner.

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Posted by: GNPE ( )
Date: September 07, 2011 12:13PM

+1

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Posted by: Rod ( )
Date: September 07, 2011 01:52PM


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Posted by: blueorchid ( )
Date: September 07, 2011 03:34PM

What an important post. I for one, really need the re-education and greatly appreciate what you have posted here. I am so hungry to know the real story now I can't tell you.

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Posted by: drilldoc ( )
Date: September 07, 2011 04:00PM

the B of M does demean the cultures of early American inhabitants depicting a savage and unsophisticated race. Thanks for your historical background - very thought provoking.

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Posted by: voweaver ( )
Date: September 07, 2011 05:16PM

When I read the Book of Mormon, the number and extent of battles seemed overwhelming. If those were true accounts of ancient wars here in the US, we'd be tripping over bones all over the country!


~VOW

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Posted by: kenc ( )
Date: September 07, 2011 07:30PM

Great sources that support your excellent post and fun to read are:

1491:New Revelations of the Americas Before Columbus

1493:Uncovering the New World Columbus Created

both written by Charles Mann

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Posted by: 3X ( )
Date: September 07, 2011 07:52PM

Very informative - please add to Short Topics as suggested earlier.

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Posted by: wine country girl ( )
Date: September 07, 2011 11:10PM


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