"As a medical diagnosis, pedophilia (or paedophilia) is defined as a psychiatric disorder in adults or late adolescents (persons age 16 or older) typically characterized by a primary or exclusive sexual interest in prepubescent children (generally age 13 years or younger, though onset of puberty may vary). The child must be at least five years younger in the case of adolescent pedophiles (16 or older) to be termed pedophilia"
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pedophilia

anyone have any info on marriage laws from joseph smith's time? did he have (sex with) any wives under the age of 14?

Illinois law at the time forbade sex outside of marriage even if the engaging parties were single and consensual.

The problem with Smith's "affair" with fourteen-year-old Helen Mar Kimball is that Horn-Dog Joe was already married to Emma, so he was in no position to ask HMK's consent nor was she in a position to grant her consent.

And what kind of sick f**k parent endorses or condones such deplorable conduct?

"Oh, honey, you get to marry and f**k the prophet! ... Isn't it wonderful? ... Isn't it marvelous?"

The mind-f**k HMK's parents and Horn-Dog Joe laid on the poor child goes beyond pedophelia or rape. In my mind, a thousand horrible deaths are not enough for the perpetrators of this crime.

Timothy



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 08/03/2011 07:48AM by Timothy.

"The mind-f**k HMK's parents and Horn-Dog Joe laid on the poor child goes beyond pedophelia or rape"

and it eventually led to HMK's stockholm syndrome.

"Illinois law at the time forbade sex outside of marriage even if the engaging parties were single and consensual."

thanks, do you have a URL or something?

i didnt mean to let "horn dog joe" off the hook by my post, i was just wanting to talk about it and see what insights people might give.

Its an on-going debate round these parts. Just wanted to make those points before the apologists chime in.

They'll say it was quite common back in the day for old geezers to court and marry child brides. It was not. Nor was it common or socially acceptable for already married men to take on an additional wife or twelve. As a matter of fact, the Republican Party's initial platform was to "Abolish the twin relics of barbarism: slavery and polygamy." Guess which religious entity the polygamy thang was aimed at.

Our board apologists also contend that its not fair to judge Horn-Dog Joe by today's standards. Given that the laws regarding sex were far more harsh back then than what's on the books today, I'd say its more than fair to judge the goddamn pervert by today's standards. He was a sleaze-bag. Neither the laws of today or back in the day alter that fact.

I'll hunt-up the info you requested (for the millionth time) as soon as time permits. In the meantime, feel free to Google. I refuse to entertain much less accept the notion that Smith has any excuse for his despicable actions.

Nuthin' personal!

Timothy

The average age for first marriage for women in Ohio at the time was in the range of 21-22 years of age. You have to extrapolate from the closest available data, but it's not a hard leap to make. The data is available on the web. Marrying at ages fourteen or fifteen would have been considered highly unusual if not unacceptable to *most* people back then.

The average age for menarche (first menstrual cycle) was probably in the mid-teens in the early to mid-19th century. So the youngest of Joseph's brides may not have experienced menarche at the time that he married them. I know that for my female relatives back in the 1920's and 30's, their first menarches occurred at about age 15 or 16. They had good food and medical care for the time.

"The average age for first marriage for women in Ohio at the time was in the range of 21-22 years of age. You have to extrapolate from the closest available data, but it's not a hard leap to make. The data is available on the web."

but it would be nice with an actual reference =)

This subject, though important, has been rehashed countless times on this board.

http://www.wivesofjosephsmith.org/Age.htm

There are links to US Census and others. Took me all of 30 seconds.

Timothy

Ohio was the likely site of his first plural marriage to Fanny Alger. As I stated, the average age of first marriage for women there was the same as the national average at the time (21-22.) I remember looking at data for that state alone, but I don't have the information at hand at present.

He wasn't a pedophile. He was a statutory rapist and libertine who may or may not have been a hebephile. In any case, he engaged in sex acts with girls in early adolescence by using coercive tactics . We have many words to define sexual predators :).

I don’t think that he was technically a pedophile but instead a sexual predator rapist. Is there a technical term for that?

doesn't take a genius to understand why non-mo's were pissed off at him back then. I would imagine most god-fearing American were abhorred by his behavior.

According to Helen Mar Kimball herself, the idea of Joseph Smith taking her as a secret, plural wife was her father's (Heber C. Kimball's) idea. Helen was about two months shy of her 15th birthday at the time.

The description of Joseph Smith as a pedophile doesn't fit the evidence. However, the description of Joseph Smith as a sexual predator fits perfectly.

But, but , but ....

Joe had no choice; that angel with the burning sword would have lopped his head off and the rest of us would have been condemned to hell.

Kind of "interesting" to believe that the salvation of mankind hinged on an act of pedophilia.

Wiki rides again... Yes from a pyschological and psychiatric standpoint, pedophilia defines the age of the victims of the sexual fixation, and the terms "hebophile" and "ephobophile" (see also "paraphile") are more accurate.

From the standpoint of today's law, the criminal sanctions are the same, and even historians who lob the charge "presentism" are on shaky ground...

But mostly, of course, a sexual predator.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 08/03/2011 01:39PM by Rebeckah.

Here's the Illinois State Law against polygamy at the time of Nauvoo:

http://www.archive.org/stream/revisedlawsofill1833illi#page/198/mode/2up

But then again, Joseph had pretty much written the right to break any law he wanted without punishment into the Nauvoo Charter, so maybe he worked his righteous legal away around this.

But yeah, I don't think Joseph was a pedophile. I don't think he went for anything that didn't have hair there. But he was a rapist and creep, by my definition.

Whatever Joseph Smith was he wasn't a pedophile. Why do we hear claims that he was a pedophile? Because stupid people exist who don't understand the definition of he words they use.

... poontang no matter what the age.

"Yes, Helen, God commanded me to f**k you!"

Gimme a break, C.!

Mormonism: Testing the tensile strength of human gullibility since 1830!

Timothy

"Mormonism: Testing the tensile strength of human gullibility since 1830!"
that was good!!
well ole Joe may have been an equal opportunity whore.... he married some older women too!! i like the "horn dawg" Joe name for him ~

just take a look at the Warren Jeff's trial, which is spilling all his secret manipulations of young girls through religion. To say nothing of the parents who delivered their girls to Jeff--yes, for the honor of obeying and being connected to the "prophet."

Looking at Jeff's is like looking back through time at JS himself.

http://www.sltrib.com/sltrib/news/52310537-78/jeffs-wives-texas-court.html.csp

Time called it: JS was a sick f**k indeed!

words and attitude parallel Joseph Smith's.

I'd buy it...

Don't forget the power of Joseph Smith's promise to Helen Marr Kimball that her submission to his lust would guarantee her family's salvation.

Yes, do let's look at that through the prism of the times....

Done. Still despicable in every possible twist of the temporal paradigm.


Anagrammy

What's all this scandolous talk about JS having sexual relations with teenagers. The data shows that those relationships were plotonic and there is no proof to the contrary so shut up!!

a hebephile, a newly proposed diagnostic classification in which people display a sexual preference for children at the cusp of puberty, between the ages of, roughly, 11 to 14 years of age. Pedophiles, in contrast, show a sexual preference for clearly prepubescent children. There are also ephebophiles (from ephebos, meaning “one arrived at puberty” in Greek), who are mostly attracted to 15- to 16-year-olds; teleiophiles (from teleios, meaning, “full grown” in Greek), who prefer those 17 years of age or older)

"Section 132, of the Doctrine and Covenants, is the retroactive "official" 1843 "revelation" by Joseph Smith for the practice of polygamy. It was officially "given" to him ten years after he had secretly taken his first plural wife, Fannie Alger, about 17 years of age, in 1833 (Origins of Power, p. 619, D. Michael Quinn), and 12 years after he attempted to seduce 12 year old Mary Elizabeth Rollins in 1831 (Emma Hale Smith, p. 65). Joseph did later marry Mary Elizabeth, in February 1842 (after he had made two more attempted persuasions towards a secret marriage), while she was still the wife of Adam Lightner, thus making bigamy part of the Law of Polygamy."

http://www.exmormon.org/pattern/josemma.htm
Marriage of Joseph Smith and Emma Hale

I believe he was a pedophile, con man, thief, adulterer, etc.

"you/we Can't judge them (JS, BY) by today's standards"

Oh, WHY NOT? where's the difference, as far as GOD is concerned????

IF it's from God, there could ONLY BE ONE STANDARD, because God thinks/acts in Eternal realms, not temporal.
Yup, that's in scriptures.

Racism, polgy. WHY?

tell me why God would teach Differently at different times;

same goes for birth control & burial/cremation, doesn't it?

says RIGHT IN D&C THAT PURPOSE IS TO 'RAISE UP SEED'..

GOT THAT?

CAN U FING R E A D?


Immaculate conception w Joe & Helen? Ummmmmmmmmm I don't think so...

with the women that already had husbands? same-O