Is it true tat the Hill Cumorah is in New York and how many people died there in battles?

Yep! And suprise suprise! Not a single ruin or artifact has been found, while, if you go to Israel, Egypt etc., you find them by the ton.

http://www.utlm.org/newsletters/no103.htm#Cumorah

The TSCC just got to hate those findings.

Yes it is in New York State, near Rochester.

I say we all show up with what ever digging implements we have and dig up the entire hill.

Either we'll find artifacts supporting the BoM or prove it is all BS once and for all.

Here's what I could never understand: all this Book of Mormon stuff was supposed to take place in Central America, but the two warring nations travel thousands of miles to upstate New York to have their final battle? Look at a map and see what type of topography would have to be crossed, not to mention the distance. And this happened not once, but TWICE, because the Jaredites fought their final battle there, too. And both these civilizations traveled all that distance to fight, with women, children, old people? It never made any sense.

Didn't Michael Ash write in the Mormon Times recently that the Book of Mormon takes place in a limited geographical area which was most likely Central America?

The lack of consistency is staggering.

"Both the Nephite and Jaredite civilizations fought their final great wars of extinction at and near the Hill Cumorah (or Ramah as the Jaredites termed it), which hill is located between Palmyra and Manchester in the western part of the State of New York.

"Joseph Smith, Oliver Cowdery and many of the early brethren, who were familiar with all the circumstances attending the coming forth of the Book of Mormon in this dispensation, have left us a pointed testimony as to the identity and location of Cumorah or Ramah."(Apostle Bruce R. McConkie, Mormon Doctrine, page 174-175, Bookcraft 1966)

"In the western part of the state of New York near Palmyra is a prominent hill known as the “hill Cumorah.” On July twenty-fifth of this year, as I stood on the crest of that hill admiring with awe the breathtaking panorama which stretched out before me on every hand, my mind reverted to the events which occurred in that vicinity some twenty-five centuries ago—events which brought to an end the great Jaredite nation ....

...second civilization to which I refer, the Nephites , flourished in America between 600 B.C. and A.D. 400. Their civilization came to an end for the same reason, at the same place, and in the same manner as did the Jaredites’" (Talk given by President Marion G. Romney in General Conference, October 4, 1975, Ensign Nov. 1975 pg. 35)

"It must be conceded that this description fits perfectly the land of Cumorah in New York, as it has been known since the visitation of Moroni to the Prophet Joseph Smith, for the hill is in the proximity of the Great Lakes and also in the land of many rivers and fountains. Moreover, the Prophet Joseph Smith himself is on record, definitely declaring the present hill called Cumorah to be the exact hill spoken of in the Book of Mormon.

"Further, the fact that all of his associates from the beginning down have spoken of it as the identical hill where Mormon and Moroni hid the records, must carry some weight. It is difficult for a reasonable person to believe that such men as Oliver Cowdery, Brigham Young, Parley P. Pratt, Orson Pratt, David Whitmer, and many others, could speak frequently of the Spot where the Prophet Joseph Smith obtained the plates as the Hill Cumorah, and not be corrected by the Prophet, if that were not the fact. That they did speak of this hill in the days of the Prophet in this definite manner is an established record of history...." (Joseph Fielding Smith, Doctrines of Salvation , Vol.3, Bookcraft, 1956, p.232-43.)

"We visited the Hill Cumorah and were accorded the courtesy of going thereon by the wife of Mr. George Sampson, a brother of Admiral Wm. Sampson, who before his death owned the property.....We were delighted to be there. Looking over the surrounding country we remembered that two great races of people had wound up their existence in the vicinity, had fought their last fight, and that hundreds of thousands had been slain within sight of that hill."(Elder George Albert Smith, Conference Report, April 1906, p.56)



"It will be, next Thursday night, 54 years since the Prophet Joseph Smith, then but a lad, was permitted by the angel of the Lord to take the gold plates of the Book of Mormon from the hill Cumorah, as it was called in ancient times, located in the State of New York. " (Talk given by Apostle Orson Pratt, Sept. 18, 1881 Journal of Discourses Vol. 22, pg. 224)

Cheers JoD

Now who's volunteering to let Michael Ash in on the secret?

And there were no horses in Central/South America during the BoM time period. Can you just imagine tapirs (about the size of a hog) pulling chariots. HA! The problem is thinking about this stuff. Thinking! Thinking causes all sorts of problems. Better to stay a brain dead morgbot full of faith and fantasy.

I love this question :). If I remember correctly, ~300,000 people died on/near that hill in 2 battles. To solve the problem of the lack of archeological evidence, apologists claim that there are two Hill Cumorah's; one where Joseph Smith said it was, another in some distant unknown location. The second is where the battles took place, the first is where Moroni buried the plates.

Takes most of the spectacle out of the Hill Cumorah pageant, doesn't it?

...in order to still believe in the LDS church. New York, Central America, Jupiter, Candyland, all of the above...

The same applies to the BoM. Literal history, spiritual truths wrapped in myths... Whatever, as long as you believe.

Um, maybe the Hill Cumorah is in the "It's a Small World" ride at Disneyland? ... Just sayin'.

I've always loved It's a small world,but I vote for Candyland.

...science once again proves the church is true! The hill simply exists in two places at once!

http://www.foxnews.com/scitech/2010/04/05/freaky-physics-proves-parallel-universes/

If you ever want a laugh, look up a paper called, "Cumorah's Cave". All about a cave where the plates, yes those plates, are supposed to be according to early church leaders. The cave is supposed to be in the hill somewhere, or close to it, and it's full of plates, and swords, and riches, and orangutans, and fruit bats, and breakfast cereals, etc....

In 1990 the office of the First Presidency of the LDS Church stated that Cumorah is in New York:

The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints
Office of the First Presidency
Salt Lake City, Utah 84150
October 16, 1990

Bishop Darrel L. Brooks
Moore Ward
Oklahoma City Oklahoma South Stake
1000 Windemere
Moore, OK 73160

Dear Bishop Brooks:

I have been asked to forward to you for acknowledgment and handling the enclosed copy of a letter to President Gordon B. Hinckley from Ronnie Sparks of your ward. Brother Sparks inquired about the location of the Hill Cumorah mentioned in the Book of Mormon, where the last battle between the Nephites and Lamanites took place.

The Church has long maintained, as attested to by references in the writings of General Authorities, that the Hill Cumorah in western New York state is the same as referenced in the Book of Mormon.

The Brethren appreciate your assistance in responding to this inquiry, and asked that you convey to Brother Sparks their commendation for his gospel study.

Sincerely yours,
(signed)
F. Michael Watson
Secretary to the First Presidency



The BOM states that Cumorah was the location of both extinction battles. And wouldn't ya know it so did all the early prophets and apostles. But now that they are dead apologists get to re-interpret (because what they said was far too complicated for you and I to understand in the “proper” manner) their prophetic uttering’s.

Now let’s imagine for a moment that Pratt and Brigham were alive and the apologists were re-interpeting these men. I do believe that mormon apologists would be getting a visit or two from the Danites if they did not shut the hey up!

Jospeh et. al believed it all occurred in their region due to the hundreds of burial mounds in the Ohio valley and the east. People of the region believed those mounds were where all the bodies from the great battles were buried and so when the BoM talked about the great battles it answered the question as to "who built the mounds and why"

Yet another example of Joe dipping into the current culture to answer a question that was on everybody mind.

First, there is the story of one of the Pratts showing JS a book about the Mayan cities and he allegedly exclaimed that those were idenditied as Lamanite cities.

However, the real reason for the Central American location is becuase of the industrialization of Upstate New York.

With all the digging that occurs with farming,Building, and every other thing that requires moving the earth there should have been numerous artifacts dug up. It happens all the time in places where there are artifacts to be disturbed. But in this heavily worked and populated area there were none.No, not even anything at all that would suggest Book of Mormon evidence.

So in order to answer the question "where is the evidence?" the Limited Geography Theory of Central/Meso-America came up.

Now, the Hill Cumorah might be situated in a remote jungle area where very few people will ever go or see whether mormon archeologists are at work, and just take their word for it that there are new surprises just around the corner. And somehow the platers got dragged all the way to New York just so that JS could find them, when it wopuld have been easier for God to have him born in Central America.

And IF he had been born in Central America and found the Plates, then the prophesy of the seed of Joseph bringing them forth would have come true. 'cuz that person would have been a remnant of the peoples to whom the Book of Mormon was written...the Lamanites.

It seems kind of silly to think of the location of the made up Hill Cumorah from the made up Book of Mormon when I think about it.

I do wonder how TBMs actually wrap their head around all of the inconsistencies.

I know so many Mormons who are such good people. I feel so sorry for them trying to live with all the goofiness that is in Mormonism and somehow trying to make it all real.

some of us from our ward were looking around on the hill talking about the massive battles there (2M Jaredites and 200k Nephites were killed there). One of them questioned why there's no evidence there of such battles or of the cave mentioned by Brigham Young. One guy just shook his head and said 'well if the Lord doesn't want the evidence to be found, then it won't be found".

So,in summary

The First Presidency is, and always has been, very clear that the Hill Cumorah is the hill in New York state.

This means the apologists with their varying theories are actually trying hard to prove the First Presidency wrong.

Bizzare

Jon,
 
Thanks for your email. I’ll address this aspect of the geographical argument in a subsequent installment.
 
Mike Ash

I don't think Joseph Smith ever referred to the hill in Palmyra as Hill Cumorah. He never gave it a name. He only called it "the place".

Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 11/03/2010 10:32PM by AmIDarkNow?.

"Both the Nephite and Jaredite civilizations fought their final great wars of extinction at and near the Hill Cumorah (or Ramah as the Jaredites termed it), which hill is located between Palmyra and Manchester in the western part of the State of New York. Joseph Smith, Oliver Cowdery and many of the early brethren, who were familiar with all the circumstances attending the coming forth of the Book of Mormon in this dispensation, have left us a pointed testimony as to the identity and location of Cumorah or Ramah."(Apostle Bruce R. McConkie, Mormon Doctrine, page 174-175, Bookcraft 1966)


"In the western part of the state of New York near Palmyra is a prominent hill known as the “hill Cumorah.” On July twenty-fifth of this year, as I stood on the crest of that hill admiring with awe the breathtaking panorama which stretched out before me on every hand, my mind reverted to the events which occurred in that vicinity some twenty-five centuries ago—events which brought to an end the great Jaredite nation ....

...second civilization to which I refer, the Nephites , flourished in America between 600 B.C. and A.D. 400. Their civilization came to an end for the same reason, at the same place, and in the same manner as did the Jaredites’" (Talk given by President Marion G. Romney in General Conference, October 4, 1975, Ensign Nov. 1975 pg. 35)


"It must be conceded that this description fits perfectly the land of Cumorah in New York, as it has been known since the visitation of Moroni to the Prophet Joseph Smith, for the hill is in the proximity of the Great Lakes and also in the land of many rivers and fountains. Moreover, the Prophet Joseph Smith himself is on record, definitely declaring the present hill called Cumorah to be the exact hill spoken of in the Book of Mormon.

Further, the fact that all of his associates from the beginning down have spoken of it as the identical hill where Mormon and Moroni hid the records, must carry some weight. It is difficult for a reasonable person to believe that such men as Oliver Cowdery, Brigham Young, Parley P. Pratt, Orson Pratt, David Whitmer, and many others, could speak frequently of the Spot where the Prophet Joseph Smith obtained the plates as the Hill Cumorah, and not be corrected by the Prophet, if that were not the fact. That they did speak of this hill in the days of the Prophet in this definite manner is an established record of history...." (Joseph Fielding Smith, Doctrines of Salvation , Vol.3, Bookcraft, 1956, p.232-43.)


"We visited the Hill Cumorah and were accorded the courtesy of going thereon by the wife of Mr. George Sampson, a brother of Admiral Wm. Sampson, who before his death owned the property.....We were delighted to be there. Looking over the surrounding country we remembered that two great races of people had wound up their existence in the vicinity, had fought their last fight, and that hundreds of thousands had been slain within sight of that hill."(Elder George Albert Smith, Conference Report, April 1906, p.56)


"It will be, next Thursday night, 54 years since the Prophet Joseph Smith, then but a lad, was permitted by the angel of the Lord to take the gold plates of the Book of Mormon from the hill Cumorah, as it was called in ancient times, located in the State of New York. " (Talk given by Apostle Orson Pratt, Sept. 18, 1881 Journal of Discourses Vol. 22, pg. 224)



From the Neal A. Maxwell Institute for Religious Scholarship (formerly FARMS) (emphasis added):

President George Q. Cannon in 1887 wrote an editorial appearing in the Juvenile Instructor, which called for some caution relative to Book of Mormon geography and noted that there "is considerable anxiety manifested [among Latter-day Saints] to identify the sites of the ancient cities of the Nephites and to locate the exact spots where the stirring scenes described in the Book of Mormon were enacted." Cannon then declared that there are only "a few points which can be identified." The "hill known as Cumorah among the Nephites," he wrote, "and as Ramah among the Jaredites, is a spot which we are now familiar with, it being the place where Moroni concealed the records of his father, and to which the Prophet Joseph was directed by his angel guide."

The Maxwell quote is a good addition to the exact copy of my post above.

Found nothing (no suprises there).

http://www.lds-mormon.com/ferg.shtml

and

A quick summary from

http://www.mormonwiki.org/Thomas_Stuart_Ferguson


"Thomas Stuart Ferguson was one of the most noted defenders of Book of Mormon archaeology. Mr. Ferguson planned the New World Archaeological Foundation which he hoped would prove The Book of Mormon through archaeological research. The Mormon Church granted hundreds of thousands of dollars to this organization, but in the end, Thomas Stuart Ferguson admitted that although the Foundation made some important contributions to New World archaeology, all his work with regard to the Book of Mormon was in vain. He admitted, in fact, that he had wasted twenty-five years of his life trying to prove the Book of Mormon. In 1975 Ferguson prepared a 29-page paper in which he wrote: 'I'm afraid that up to this point, I must agree with Dee Green, who has told us that to date there is no Book-of-Mormon geography.' In a letter to Mr. & Mrs. H.W. Lawrence, dated Feb. 20, 1976, Thomas Stuart Ferguson plainly stated: '…you can’t set Book of Mormon geography down anywhere - because it is fictional and will never meet the requirements of the dirt-archeology.' "

Heck I remember hearing the Marion G Romney quote at conference. At the Hill Cumorah pageant they had a GA or two come indoctrinate us about the Hill and the Sacred Grove. How can they possibly backpedal away from that?

I'm guessing they will position it that when they made those statements, they were speaking as men. Not as Profits, Sneers or Realtors.

Have they backed off the Garden of Eden being in Missouri also?

President Hinckley - 2002

President Hinckley seemed to believe that Moroni actually walked at the Hill Cumorah some 1,500 years ago as stated in the BOM. At a dedication on Hill Cumorah, Hinckley stated:

What a glorious and wonderful thing took place here, right here at this hill. I am . . . glad to be back and walk this ground where Moroni walked so very, very long ago."

Reference: Church News, Published: Saturday, July 6, 2002
http://www.mormonthink.com/book-of-mormon-problems.htm#cumorah

The Church has a fantastic opportunity to convert millions - there must be a plethora of ancient remains on that very site.
The Church owns the land and so could demonstrate to the World that the content of the Book of Mormon is exactly what it purports to be - a true record .

Or perhaps they might know slightly more about that site than they are letting on...

http://institute.lds.org/manuals/church-history-institute-student-manual/chft-01-05-4.asp



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 11/04/2010 06:35PM by jw the inquizzinator.

I just read the Institute manual--very dramatic, especially all that hiding of the gold plates. Gee, whiz, those poor plates got manhandled more than they ever did getting hauled from Guatemala to New York! And you gotta wonder about Charles Anthon, who said the "Translation was correct" for a language he shouldn't have even recognized..!

Imagine long ago that the nations of England and France go to war. At first they fight close to home which is their economic base. Then they decide, for some strange reason, to migrate all their battles to the East, with their families following them.

For twenty-five long years all these people, soldiers and their families, keep moving further away from their original homelands.

When the final great battle takes place they are in INDIA !

250 thousand are killed on just on side, and probable an equal number on the other – even after taking casualties for a quarter of a century of past battles!

But there isn’t a shred of evidence left behind.

What ever happened to his family/reputation? I know he died--were any letters or additional documents discovered. I always saw him as the archetypal anti-Mormon, a person who poured his life and money into their vain cause at the expense of the family's needs. I pictured him currying favor with the GA's and hoping in his heart that all this sacrifice would give him a noble status in the end and his children would forgive him being gone all the time.

Anybody know?

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