"Our race is the Master Race. We are divine gods on this planet. We are as different from the inferior races as they are from insects. In fact, compared to our race, other races are beasts and animals, cattle at best. Other races are considered as human excrement. Our destiny is to rule over the inferior races. Our earthly kingdom will be ruled by our leader with a rod of iron. The masses will lick our feet and serve us as our slaves." - Israeli prime Minister Menachem Begin in a speech to the Knesset [Israeli Parliament] quoted by Amnon Kapeliouk, "Begin and the Beasts," New Statesman, June 25, 1982

"We have to kill all the Palestinians unless they are resigned to live here as slaves." Chairman Heilbrun of the Committee for the Re-election of General Shlomo Lahat, the mayor of Tel Aviv, October 1983.

"One million Arabs are not worth a Jewish fingernail." -- Rabbi Yaacov Perrin, Feb. 27, 1994 [Source: N.Y. Times, Feb. 28, 1994, p. 1]

"We Jews, we are the destroyers and will remain the destroyers. Nothing you can do will meet our demands and needs. We will forever destroy because we want a world of our own." (You Gentiles, by Jewish Author Maurice Samuels, p. 155).

"Of all men upon the face of the earth, we are the most favoured; we have the fulness of the everlasting Gospel,
the keys of revelation and exaltation, the privilege of making our own rules and regulations, and are not
opposed by anybody. No king, prince, potentate, or dominion, has rightful authority to crush and oppress us.
We breathe the free air, we have the best looking men and handsomest women, and if they envy us our
position, well they may, for they are a poor, narrow−minded, pinch−backed race of men, who chain
themselves down to the law of monogamy, and live all their days under the dominion of one wife. They ought
to be ashamed of such conduct, and the still fouler channel which flows from their practices; and it is not to be
wondered at that they should envy those who so much better understand the social relations."
-Apostle George A. Smith, April 6, 1856 (Journal of Discourses, Vol. 3, p291)

...I think JS just liked the drama and pageantry of the OT better than the sack cloth, ashes and martyrdom of the NT. Temples, robes, ceremonies, prophets, wars, conquests, wives, concubines... Much cooler.

I also think JS wanted to do a leap frog over Christianity, claiming his prophetic wonderfulness came from back in the beginning, with Adam and the Israelites, before things got corrupted by the Roman Catholic church and the Protestants.

So, naturally, JS latched onto the Chosen People thing. Woo! Yeah! God loves us best! We're better than you stupid, boring Christians. We're New Improved Jesus-ized Jews! No where are my concubines?

anagrammy Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> "Our race is the Master Race. We are divine gods
> on this planet. We are as different from the
> inferior races as they are from insects. In fact,
> compared to our race, other races are beasts and
> animals, cattle at best. Other races are
> considered as human excrement. Our destiny is to
> rule over the inferior races. Our earthly kingdom
> will be ruled by our leader with a rod of iron.
> The masses will lick our feet and serve us as our
> slaves." - Israeli prime Minister Menachem Begin
> in a speech to the Knesset quoted by Amnon
> Kapeliouk, "Begin and the Beasts," New Statesman,
> June 25, 1982

This is a fake quote, It was never said by Begin. In fact although there are other misquotes in the New Statesman article you reference this quote is not one of them.

> "We have to kill all the Palestinians unless they
> are resigned to live here as slaves." Chairman
> Heilbrun of the Committee for the Re-election of
> General Shlomo Lahat, the mayor of Tel Aviv,
> October 1983.

This is another fake quote. It comes from an anti-Israeli pamphlet and is footnoted as hearsay. The fact is there was no "Chairman Heilbrun" involved in Shlomo Lahat's campaign or administration

> "One million Arabs are not worth a Jewish
> fingernail." -- Rabbi Yaacov Perrin, Feb. 27, 1994
>
>
> "We Jews, we are the destroyers and will remain
> the destroyers. Nothing you can do will meet our
> demands and needs. We will forever destroy because
> we want a world of our own." (You Gentiles, by
> Jewish Author Maurice Samuels, p. 155).

The last two quotes are by right-wing Jews who have been denounced by mainstream Jewish leaders. The first of the two was said at the funeral of Baruch Goldstein, perpetrator of the "Cave of the Patriarch's Massacre."

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cave_of_the_Patriarchs_massacre

American-born Goldstein was denounced by Israeli Prime Minister Yitzhak Rabin as a "degenerate murderer." However his grave-site is a shrine for many extreme right-wing Israelis



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 07/30/2011 04:27PM by baura.

Thank you! I couldnt believe that there was such hate in the world. These 'quotes' we probably forged by extremists.

Aryan and white supremicist groups put out a lot of BS propaganda about Israel and Jews in their pamphlets. I'm not suprised these quotes are fake.

Baura- thanks for that and since you are up on this, I'm curious if the Jews' fundamentalists are similar to Mormon fundamentalists in terms of acceptance.

What I'm getting at is that I think Orthodox Jews are tolerated and acknowledged by Mainsteam Jews as having a point. Even if they don't agree with them, Orthodox get respect.

Whereas, we all know that Mormon Fundies get no respect, quite the opposite, when they are actually true to the original religion, much like Orthodox Jews.


Anagrammy

anagrammy Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Baura- thanks for that and since you are up on
> this, I'm curious if the Jews' fundamentalists are
> similar to Mormon fundamentalists in terms of
> acceptance.
>
> What I'm getting at is that I think Orthodox Jews
> are tolerated and acknowledged by Mainsteam Jews
> as having a point. Even if they don't agree with
> them, Orthodox get respect.
>
> Whereas, we all know that Mormon Fundies get no
> respect, quite the opposite, when they are
> actually true to the original religion, much like
> Orthodox Jews.
>
>
> Anagrammy

As a Jew:

The answer to what you're saying here is another take on what I was saying a few days ago.

You are ASSUMING that Orthodox Jews are "tolerated" or "respected" because they "have a point"--by which I am assuming that you mean that the way they live their lives, or what they "believe" leads to "tolerance" or "respect" from other Jews.

If so, then this is just flat not so. Orthodox Jews have a huge spectrum of observance and "belief" (for want of a better word in English), and they are "tolerated" or "respected" based on THE KIND(S) OF PEOPLE THEY ARE, as individuals, and also as a community together with their fellow Orthodox who live their same lifestyle and observe their same way.

There are really nutso, crazy, not nice, hateful Jews among the Orthdox, based on their communal take on Judaism, especially in the frum-er (vastly more "observant") communities which are, in themselves cults. For those who are in these particular "groups," Jews feel about them just about the same way as Mormons or exmos feel about Mormons who are FLDS or similar. There is no difference.

This is not true of Orthodox Jews as a whole, but it IS true of those who affiliate, or are members of, the Jewish groups which can clearly be defined by any fair measure as cults. Some of these cults are really batshit crazy (and, again, I cite those who have joined together in Jerusalem to reconstruct the Temple, because this is a far more hateful and negative political/religious aspiration than it would appear on the surface to non-Jews; too much to go into here, but the Temple must NEVER be rebuilt for all kinds of reasons, some of which would have impact among Americans at large right here in the USA). But there are other groups who have nothing directly to do with any potential Temple rebuilding who are just plain cults. And they ARE judged by other Jews as being cults, and are treated appropriately.

So what you say doesn't make any sense, especially since you do not define which part of the Jewish Orthodox spectrum you're talking about, and it is a VERY long spectrum.

The nutso far-right Jewish groups aside, Jews judge each other by their personal integrity and honor ("being a mensch"), NOT by their religious/community affiliation(s).

+1000 (from a fellow "landsman")

That is one of the few elements of Mormonism that is actually consistent with mainstream Christian thought.

It may be true that mainstream Christians think of themselves as adopted, being they have the Judeo roots, but they don't go as far as Mormons with patriarchal blessings which give branches of Judaism from which they are descended.

And, of course, Christians don't believe in fortune telling, so there's that.

My point was not expressed real well. What I'm noticing is that the mainstream Mormon church completely disavows and does not have respect for any other Mormon denomination. You never hear them inviting a Church of Christ bishop, for example, to speak even though they are much closer in belief to Salt Lake Mormons than say, the Catholics, whom the MOrmons traditionally despised.

But now, the Mormons are cozying up to the Catholics and using many of their strategies to survive the hard times of public questioning, scandals, sexual misbehavior, etc. They are also trying to win friend and influence people in Christendom for political purposes.

Do the liberal Jews socialize with Orthodox Jews? Do they include them when they total up how many Jews there are in the world? See, these are things Mormons do not do.

I was thinking it's a form of shunning and since shunning originated with the old Testament, I'm real curious if Jews are shunning people these days at all (and who they shun) or if that's only in the past.

Thanks and don't mean to sound anti-Semetic, I am equally dubious of all religions and their tactics.


Anagrammy

anagrammy Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
>
> My point was not expressed real well. What I'm
> noticing is that the mainstream Mormon church
> completely disavows and does not have respect for
> any other Mormon denomination. You never hear
> them inviting a Church of Christ bishop, for
> example, to speak even though they are much closer
> in belief to Salt Lake Mormons than say, the
> Catholics, whom the MOrmons traditionally
> despised.
>
>
> Do the liberal Jews socialize with Orthodox Jews?
> Do they include them when they total up how many
> Jews there are in the world? See, these are
> things Mormons do not do.
>
> I was thinking it's a form of shunning and since
> shunning originated with the old Testament, I'm
> real curious if Jews are shunning people these
> days at all (and who they shun) or if that's only
> in the past.
>
> Thanks and don't mean to sound anti-Semetic, I am
> equally dubious of all religions and their
> tactics.
>
>
> Anagrammy

Okay, I didn't understand that you were talking about shunning.

In the terms you're talking about, I don't think shunning hardly ever happens among Jews--with some exceptions. (Despite explicit prohibitions in Jewish law against exactly this, Syrian Jews definitely do not like converts, and a convert to Judaism will almost never be considered "equal" to a born Jew among the Syrian Jewish community. But it's not really "shunning," but rather an over-nice niceness...coupled with the firm resolve that THAT person will never enter THEIR family!)

Orthodox, etc. rabbis often speak at Jewish gatherings that are sponsored, etc. by Jews from other movements. The same could be said about most movements vis-a-vis each other, although I can't conceive of a Reform rabbi, or a FEMALE rabbi of any Jewish movement, ever speaking in an Orthodox shul unless it was NOT a worship service but a meeting or informational presentation or something. Female rabbis from any Jewish movement would likewise not be allowed to "have" rabbinical privileges or perform religious functions (say, officiating at a wedding or a funeral, I think) for any Orthodox shul or beit din (rabbinical court), except maybe among the "modern Orthodox"
(the "left" of the Jewish Orthodox spectrum).

Among the very most right wing Jews, there might be shunning if a member left that group for the wider Jewish world. These are often cults, as I said previously, and cults shun, almost as a criteria of being a cult.

But even then, if that Jew needed assistance or help in any way, pretty much any other Jew would help, regardless of either person's level of observance or choice of Jewish movement. The obligation to "save life" is taken VERY literally, and defined extremely broadly, by all Jews, and this means that--if ANYONE (Jew or not) needs help, most Jews (observant or not) will provide whatever is called for reflexively--almost without thought (in the sense that "if I jump into the water to save that person, I might drown..." or "If I give that person my last few dollars, I will have some major difficulties getting food [for myself], etc."

On a social level, some socializing cannot take place between the very most rightwing "frum" Jews and other Jews, even if the "others" are observant, because the LEVEL of observance is not adequately equal. For those, in those groups, at that level of observance, it isn't just a matter of having kosher food, but of that kosher food having the "right" kosher certification by the "right" rabbinical authority...and the dishes and cooking gear and utensils being properly kashered [cleaned according to Jewish law which renders them kosher], etc. So the simplest hospitality involving food could be impossible to bridge between certain small groups of Jews and most other Jews.

But I've never personally heard of anyone being shunned as Mormons shun. This is just totally alien to what Jews and Judaism are all about.

This is a long explanation. I hope it answers what you're wondering about.

The only reason anybody would insist they were an "adopted" something else would be that they believed those other star-bellied Sneetches were truly favored in God's eyes.

Which means they believe the Jew's claim to be a "chosen" people; therefore, one has to ask, why not be a Jew and join the favored? You want Jesus? There's a flavor of Jew that believes in Jesus, so what are you waiting for?

It is fascinating to me that some of the Mormon behaviors have no basis whatsoever in Judaism; their selection of themselves as favored seem clearly based on the idea of the "select few," simple elitism. Set in a religion, it allows them to extract money from the "non-select."

It's spiritual Feudalism. They own your body and you just inhabit your meatsuit for "time." Even your wife isn't your own, she's just there for "time" unless they deem you worthy of a plastic card to go to the Temple and give you her secret name (green door? Joe sent me?)

As long as you are an obedient peasant, oops, member, you are promised a better body and seat in the theater that is the Celestial Kingdom, with virgins squirming in your naked lap.

Meanwhile, get those members over there to clean the building. A Lord, scratch that, a GA will be coming to speak at Stake Conference.


Anagrammy

anagrammy partially Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Which means they believe the Jew's claim to be a "chosen" people; therefore, one has to ask, why not be a Jew and join the favored? You want Jesus? There's a flavor of Jew that believes in Jesus, so what are you waiting for?
>
Respectfully, anagrammy, to quote a former beloved professor of mine, "A Jew for Jesus is a Catholic for Christ." He realized years ago that a Jew who accepts Jesus as the messiah is actually become an apostate to the Jewish faith. especially if you consider that the whole JfJ cult is actually part of the baptist church.

So true! What a tangled up mess. People trying to be all things to all people, I say.

Anagrammy

anagrammy Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
>
> Do the liberal Jews socialize with Orthodox Jews?
> Do they include them when they total up how many
> Jews there are in the world? See, these are
> things Mormons do not do.
>
I am part of an international email list composed of Jews (and of non-Jews, mostly people who are in relationships with Jews or who are interested in becoming Jews) who--in addition--have a particular common interest separate from Judiasm, but whose level, or lack, of Jewish observance can (at least in some cases) greatly impact this outside interest.

Today an email was sent out to this email list which illuminates how Jews live vis-a-vis the different Jewish movements. Here it is [lightly edited for clarity and for privacy]:

Haverim [Hebrew for "friends"; this is one of the first Hebrew words anyone learns]:

The internet certainly has changed how we approach many things in life and this brief communication is yet another foray into an expansion of that trend. I have contributed comments to this site a number of times but this is new: I'm looking for a High Holy Days position as rabbi/cantor. Our very small congregation closed its doors after 15 years and, thus, I'm looking for a position for these important rituals. I've conducted services in "Conservadox," Conservative, Reconstructionist, and Reform communities. As an independent rabbi (ordained at AJR in New York) I am not part of a network such as [names of rabbinical organizations] and thus my attempt to explore every possible avenue. If you know of a community which might be interested, please let me know and I'll be glad to interview/forward a CV.

B'Shalom ["peace," the universal "hello" and "good-bye"],

Rabbi XXXXX XXXXX

[My note: This is the first time I've seen the word "Conservadox," but it sure does make Jewish common sense!]

The point is, this experienced rabbi is asking for leads for a High Holy Days position and he is saying that he has been a rabbi for congregations who affiliate within the following Jewish movements: "Conservadox" ["liberal modern Orthodox"], Conservative, Reconstructionist, and Reform...so this means he's been pretty much across the Jewish spectrum in his various positions as rabbi in various congregations.

[I should probably also point out that many Jews, living in various areas (or in various occupations), come together as a group and hire rabbis and cantors to conduct High Holy Day services because, in those areas or given the contraints of those occupations, they are unable to go to services in a local synagogue (because none exists, for example), or because any who might exist are not compatible for some reason (such as: they're Jewish cult synagogues and the person/people just don't want to put up with the b***s*** they would have to if they went there, even though those people might be extremely welcoming to them). This "hiring a rabbi or a cantor specifically for High Holy Day services" is very common within small groups of Jews worldwide, and this practice has been common going back many centuries.]

The point is: A Jew is a Jew is a Jew.

Movements which any Jew may or may not affiliate with are not defining, they're just "practical Jewish shorthand" for some of the largest (American/North American) sub-groups of Jewish affiliation.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 08/01/2011 06:02PM by tevai.

Very interesting. Thank you, Tevai, that was what I was wondering.

Peace

Anagrammy

Read! Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> That is one of the few elements of Mormonism that is actually consistent with mainstream Christian thought.

I never heard of that. I was raised Catholic and have attended Protestant church services over the years. In no way do the Christians I know consider themselves "adopted Jews."

The first time I heard of that concept was in Mormonism.

I lived in Utah and I lived in Israel. Both are the craziest places I ever lived. The problem with Utah is there are too many Mormons and the problem with Israel is there are too many Jews. I find the god's only chosen people concept appaulling.

Are you Palestinian or Arabic? What do you have against Jews?
All believers in Christ, not just Mormons are adopted Jews in God's sight.

Well all can say is that this is why I now hate religion so much. Way too much elitism going on, and way too much, "My god is bigger than your god." No thanks. I wash my hands of all of it.

The fact that any of it is out there, fake or not, put out by extremists or not, the sentiments are clearly still out there amongst some of the members of these organizations.