In my market, Dr. Phil comes on at 9:00am. I missed her first appearance. I don't usually like Dr. Phil, but I am looking forward to hearing the update on this case.

For those who don't remember, she was the Mormon mom who used hot sauce and cold showers to discipline her 6 year old adopted Russian son.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 07/21/2011 10:50AM by knotheadusc.

I'm guessing, but I wonder if the son has reactive attachment disorder. Some of those orphanages are horrible... In which case, what she does is even more horrible.

I think she claimed he did have RAD. I missed the first time she was on, but saw some of the clips and read a lot about it here on RfM.

What she did to that child, they should be taping this 'follow-up' from her jail cell. She deserved some serious incarceration time for the mental and physical torture and abuse she did to that little boy.

Unfortunately, there is a different episode on in my area. That's too bad -- I would have liked to see the followup.

Thanks for the heads-up, though.

Reactive attachment disorder in a child can turn a great parent into a bad parent and an average parent into a monster. RAD is often accompanied by various other psychological and/or learning disorders as well.

Neither the mom nor the kid needs Dr. Phil. They need real therapy.

I respect people who can adopt a child with RAD and actually pull it off without becoming beasts. I've never met any adoptive family that didn't have the best intentions. But often they get in over their heads. Especially religious families that think "love conquers all."

Love often doesn't conquer RAD, but vice-versa.

Frankly, I'm surprised she agreed to be on Dr. Phil again. It led to a lot of trouble for herself and her family. I agree that the smartest thing she could do is get real help from a local therapist.

I don't know that the boy actually does have RAD. She just claims he does.

Been there, done that, got the freaking trophy!! My adopted RAD daughter from Russia completely drained all of our resources - emotionally, financially, mentally . . . EVERYTHING!

And I was well-prepared to parent a child with RAD. I was a child/adolescent mental health counselor for years. My entire case load consisted of foster children with one degree of RAD or another. I specialized in working with RAD children. I knew what I was getting into, but the reality was all-consuming. My other children suffered from the constant chaos.

We were Sasha's 3rd adoptive family in less than 6 months in the U.S. None of the others could handle her rages, running away, hurting their other children, and torturing animals. And her original adoptive father (who brought her over from Russia) was a respected pediatrician - head of emergency pediatrics at a major university teaching hospital. He was also on the staff of the medical school. He and his nurse-wife nearly divorced over Sasha's craziness. So they disrupted the adoption after 2 months and probably upwards of $30K in expenses.

The next family - a nurse and a bank V.P. - actually DID divorce over Sasha! They disrupted their pending adoption after only 4 months.

We adopted Sasha (because of my professional background, my husband was also a nurse). We hung in there for *8 years* until Sasha became an adolescent and became so dangerously out of control that we had to institutionalize her for her own safety and our family's protection.

In an effort to help Sasha heal, we even took the extreme measure of tracking down her long-lost sister still in a Russian orphanage. We spent 2 years fighting 2 governments to get Marina out of Russia. We finally adopted her and brought her home . . . only for both girls to develop full-blown PTSD when they were reunited (both had been horribly abused by their schizophrenic/alcoholic birth mother). When they saw each other, the memories came flooding back and they were both a mess for a while. We lived in the psychiatrist's office and the psych ward. ;o)

Sasha is now an adult and we have been reunited for over a year. She is on Social Security Disability and lots of psychotropic meds. Amazingly, we now get along very well and she is a cherished member of our family. (Marina turned out fine, BTW).

So, yeah, RAD is not for the faint of heart. That being said, I'd like to slap that hot sauce mom silly for the horribly inappropriate "consequences" she used on her Russian son. Somebody ought to pour a bottle of hot sauce down HER throat and stick her in an ice-cold-shower for 24-hours or so.

JMHO.

;o)



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 07/21/2011 09:09PM by shannon.

My adopted son is due to be released from prison next spring. He violated his parole for a drug conviction and had to serve the rest of his sentence in confinement. As much as I didn't want him to have to go to prison, I found a certain relief because I at least knew where he was.

Now that his release is about 8 months away, I find I worry about what will happen to him when he gets out. He says all the right things in his letters, but we've been through this all before. About 5 years ago, he was perscribed medication after he completed a drug rehab program and it seemed to help him a lot. But he claims he did't like to take (legal) drugs and he eventually refused to take them. Before long, he was back on illegal drugs and back in trouble because of it.

He is 31 and was on SSI before being sentenced. You sound as if you are someone who might be aware of resources. Can you make any suggestions? I live in the Fort Worth area of Texas. Any helpful suggestions would be appreciated.

Thanks in advance.

Honestly, not much, I'm sorry to say. He's a grown adult, he's been in the prison system already, and he is non-compliant with his medication. RAD is a horrible, insidious mental illness that suddenly exploded in the 90's as the Iron Curtain fell and hordes of Americans flooded Eastern Europe to adopt from orphanages.

An infant's brain is hard-wired to bond with a mother-figure. When parenting (loving, cuddling, talking, cooing, smiling, touching, feeding, and generally being responsive to a baby's cries) is non-existent - due to institutionalization or abuse/neglect - it is nearly impossible to re-wire a child's brain. The neural pathways are already set. As a result of the horrific neglect in infancy, the child does not develop a sense of trust and cannot bond with others. It's tragic.

Starry-eyed adoptive parents (and I especially put many Mormons in this category, who felt they had a revelation from God to adopt an orphan for their eternal family) simply think that enough love and prayers can overcome any obstacle. I saw a local Bishop and his sister's family disrupt a total of 5 Russian adopted children mere months after bringing them to America. They simply could not manage the stress or the danger to their other children (RAD kids are often scary violent). The experiences of those two families affected an entire Florida ward.

In my personal and professional opinion, I believe that some of the neural pathways in a YOUNG child's brain can be re-wired with intensive, intensive therapy and intervention. I did a lot of "holding therapy" with Sasha - hours worth each day - trying to get her to bond with me. I re-parented her and went all the way back to infancy. She was a very tiny 7-year-old (35 pounds and malnourished) so I could hold her like a baby.

I rocked her, sang her lullabies, gazed into her eyes for hours (RAD kids don't like to make eye contact), I touched her and rubbed/patted her back, fed her bottles, let her have a pacifier . . . all the things you do with a little baby . . . in the hope that her brain could re-wire permanently and she'd be able to love and trust one day.

We were partially successful. As long as she had an excellent psychiatrist, counseling, and really good psychotropic meds, she did fairly well. But when she hit adolescence, and her hormones started popping, all hell broke loose. She was a definite danger to herself and others. She constantly ran away. She was basically in a revolving door to psych hospitals. My other children suffered from the constant drama.

We finally gave up, too. She threatened to burn the house down while we were all sleeping. I BELIEVED HER. She had a long history of violent behavior - when she was small she actually broke the cat's femur in two on purpose because I asked her to clean her room.

She is now living independently but is on SSI. Her bio sister is her guardian. As long as she is med compliant, she functions fairly well and she is a joy to have around. But she still has problems. She was in the psych hospital a few days last week. She steals from all of us regularly. She'll lie if she gets a whim, which is often. She sometimes disappears to the beach and hangs out on the boardwalk with the homeless people. <SIGH>

But I do love her. We have a bond, although not as deep and "permanent" as I have with my other children, including her Russian sister.

If your son is unwilling to take medication, there is not much hope that, at age 31, he will suddenly turn around and live a normal life. Actually, prison is sometimes a good place for adults with RAD because they are forced to take medication, there is structure in their life, and they cannot harm themselves or others - plus YOU get a respite from the drama. I know that sounds heartless to say but that may be the best you can hope for.

Adults with RAD can become sociopathic and a danger to society. They have no conscience and do not understand cause-effect thinking. So, he's likely to re-offend in some manner again and wind up back in the legal system.

SSI and psychotropic meds are the best you can hope for in this situation, I believe. I know you love your son. And it's agonizing for us parents when that love is not returned in full, especially after all the sacrifices and resources we have poured into their lives.

Good luck. Really, I mean that. I wish I could be of more help.

Sorry this turned into a dissertation everyone. ;o) This topic is truly my passion (as all the old-timers already know).



Edited 5 time(s). Last edit at 07/21/2011 08:47PM by shannon.

I'm glad your marriage survived, Shannon. It's not an easy road at all. It's not for the faint of heart...it's not even for people who are "strong" it's for people with iron will, who we often think are inhumanly stubborn. People who can take physical, verbal and even emotional abuse from a little kid...

...Other people think, "but (s)he's just an 8 year old child? How bad can (s)he be?"

Shannon's a saint. There's no doubt in my mind. People like the Dr. Phil lady are the rule, not the exception.

Just contact Russia and give it a try. And someday you'll be cleaning your 10 year old adopted child's poop off all your drapes with the arm (s)he didn't break when (s)he attacked you with a baseball bat last week. Afterwards, you'll make sure your biological children are still alive (hiding quietly in their bedrooms to avoid attack is now their life story). Then you'll sit down to try to finish reviewing your divorce paperwork before the next upheaval,and you'll realize that although the lady on Dr. Phil was wrong, you completely understand her.

You also know that any punishment she deals out will be completely ineffective, even if she weren't wrong.

I'm not going to share my personal experience with this, other than to say: I'm there right now, and the adoption has failed...so I don't have any advice on how to survive it.

During the course of my teaching career, I've seen four kids who were that far gone. Pee and poop everywhere, complete destruction of their environments, screaming, cursing, hitting, kicking, and throwing 24/7. *AND* we can't get appropriate help for the kid in question unless the parent signs off on it. So the kid is allowed to terrorize and disrupt the learning of his or her classmates. Sure, the kid spends a significant amount of time with the school counselor, the assistant principal, and on suspension, but apart from that, there's not much that we can do.

The teachers who deal with these kids are unsung heroes as well, but their consolation is that after a year or two, they can wave goodbye.

Honestly, I don't know how parents cope with it.

Yes, she turned 18 and we were reunited with her. She doesn't LIVE in my house anymore, but visits frequently. It's my own little, personal miracle. I'm still amazed at how it all happened.

Story for another day. ;o) Suffice it to say, she was on the run from her group home and was hit by a truck near the park right outside our subdivision. A bunch of teenagers who knew her came running to our front yard or called us. Three vehicles from our family raced to the accident scene. Rescue vehicles were still there but the ambulance had left.

I had been talking behind the scenes with her caseworker for several months, helping her. I speed dialed the social worker and got immediate permission to go to the hospital. I was crying and hysterical, of course.

It was an amazing reunion.

When she recovered, our family took her to Disney World with us. She's been to every extended family function and holiday since then.

My life is never boring, is it?

;o)



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 07/21/2011 09:05PM by shannon.

I believe I fell into this category with my one son. Someone asked me if I would do it over again knowing what I know now, and I just might if I had the knowledge and support for him. The learning-as-you-go approach - especially with the hinderences Mormonism provided - was awful at times.

My oldest daughter is 37. She is full Tahitian and we adopted her when she was 2. Perfect child. I thought I was the perfect mom. Then she turned 12 and all hell broke loose. 6 years of abuse on me,on her siblings,more police cars at our house than I care to remember,running away for days and coming home in a stupor. Forget school. But she graduated High School! Maybe just to see her gone

A few years later I was going through the training to become a foster parent. Lo and behold. There it was-RAD. I cried when I realized that a lot of what I had done to try and help her was probably more harmful.I had never heard of RAD. I know I can't go back,but I would give 10 years of my life to have known how to better help her,and our whole family.

I had 24 foster children. More had RAD than did not. We were in the process of adopting a 5 year old with RAD. Her therapist said she was one of the 2 most severely affected she had seen in her career. She asked me if this is what I could accept...and then proceeded to tell me things my adorable,yet already very affected little girl might,would probably do. It ended up the state thought she needed to be in a home where she was the only child. So move #9 for her. We had her 2 years-how long was she in the other 7 places? She is 15 now and I hope,with all my heart,her new family,who ever they are,was able to help her.

Our oldest daughter I mentioned-she came straight from Tahiti. Dropped in our laps. This very dark skinned child going to white parents.And this very naive (I was 23) couple was given no help in dealing with what my happen. Breaks my heart. She still has RAD. Can walk away from family and friends without a backward glance. Moves when she gets tired of her friends. BUT!! She has an amazing husband who cherishes her. He has been the main parent figure (work at home) and they have 2 beautiful kids. She is very lucky to have him.

And yes,being a Mormon and just loving my daughter should have been enough,right? Right...

Hot sauce for foul language and cold showers for tantrum behaviors were recommended by one of the early therapists we saw trying to deal with his behavior. He did - and stil does - suffer from fetal brain injury (down graded from fetal alcohol syndrome), ADHD, and a possible reactive attachment disorder. The later was mentioned but never officially diagnosed.

I have also observed similarities regarding his constant lying with Casey Anthony recently aquitted for murdering her 2 year old daughter in FL.

I think this episode has already aired. Dr. Phil is all re-runs right now. Dr. Lovdliss came to visit and gave her some parenting advice and offered to take her and the boy to his clinic in Texas (I think) to have him evaluated. She said her approach to the boy has changed but his behavior has not.

The Dr. Phil mom was the first time I'd ever heard of anyone doing that--putting hot sauce on a kid's tongue. But I heard something recently that really shocked me and I wondered if anyone else has heard of this being used by mormon women. But since it's a way of abusing children and hiding it, maybe we wouldn't know whether it's happening or not.

Two Mormon women in Britain were jailed for it a year or so back.

The first time I heard of hot saucing was when Lisa Whelchel (Blair on "The Facts of Life") was in the news for advocating it in her book about disciplining kids. She's not Mormon, though she is a conservative Christian.

Is that the Mormon lady that stuck Tabasco sauce up her hoo hah?

Just wonderin'...

Ron

...A hot sauce nasal douche and a hot sauce enema. For inner cleanliness.

This wasn't just hot sauce. This was enhanced with extract (pepper spray base). I have several. One drop on a chip will cause instant agony, and turn on the waterworks (sweating, tearing up, runny nose and drooling). I've watched a couple dweebs at work pass out from the instant wallop.
She poured a ton of that shit into his mouth. Despite his
behavioral problems, that kid is one tough little sonofabitch!

Would you mind clarifying? It looked like she was pouring Tapatio hot sauce into his mouth. That shit is VERY hot, but I don't think it's enhanced with extract, is it?

although I consider Tapatio quite mild... for a child it would not be.

I'm guessing you watched it. Could you enlighten us as to what happened on this episode?

Thanks.

It airs tomorrow. I will return and report.

The hot sauce was made in New Orleans. The company was wiped out by Katrina. It was made out of Tabasco peppers and concentrated Capsaicin extract. Get a bottle of Dave's Insanity Sauce and try it yourself. It's aptly named. Tabasco Sauce is nothing. I was punished with it once at 5 yrs old. I've been a chili head ever since. (Thanks mom.)
http://www.amazon.com/Daves-Original-Insanity-Hot-Sauce/dp/B0000DID5R/ref=sr_1_1?s=grocery&ie=UTF8&qid=1311290023&sr=1-1

...This is why, even when I was TBM, I was always in favor of abortion because children DESERVE a loving mother and fater! These poor children are here in spite of the fact that they were not wanted by the mothers, who I'm sure, were a mess themselves!

...that I screwed the pooch on this one. I put two different cases together. This one happened in Rexburg.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w9YsGhUUxt0

This is more outrageous.

Musta been too much blood in my alcohol stream.
Mesquite smoked crow for dinner.

My mother told me after church one day that the ladies had been discussing child discipline and sharing ideas.
She said she thought the hot sauce one was very creative! She was all set to put that in her arsenal, but decided she probably ought to try it herself, after all, she'd been spanked and had her mouth washed out with soap, etc, so she knew exactly what punishment she was dishing out, but this was new.

Lucky for me she has no chili tolerance.

She let me know she was "keeping that one in mind" though. In a way, that was pretty sadistic of her to suggest it, reject it, but make sure we knew she had a badass punishment if we got up to something real naughty.

So for sure I know it was recommended in at least one relief society meeting.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 07/21/2011 09:04PM by WinksWinks.