My oldest is 19.

He spends alot of time with his very mormon grandparents and his bishop...

I haven't been active since he was small and he is aware of my disbelief. I talk to all of my children about religious decision making issues and when they go to church with my Wife, we discuss what is taught. Although, I cannot delve too deeply per an agreement with my wife.


So, I was shocked today when I took him to lunch and asked him some questions, I thought he would know the answers to.

He was generally unaware about what the book of abraham was despite 4 years of seminary and a year in institute.

He was completely unaware that joseph smith had more than one wife, or that the churches leaders at the time were polygamists.

"As god is man may become" was a phrase he first heard coming out of my mouth between chewing.

He couldn't really tell me why he wants to go on a mission.

He couldn't tell me lots of other things about the church.
Lots of basic things.

He was able to tell me that Grandma and Bishop have told him they will pay for his mission.

He was able to tell me that Grandma and Grandpa assured him that he would be unsuccessful in work and romance if he didn't go.

The extent to which the church goes (and grandparents apparently) to ignore almost every detail that isn't completely "feel good"...works well.

Grandma and grandpa are manipulative.

Its Pretty obvious he is stuck between a rock and a hard place. If he doesn't go he will be shunned by 90% of the people around him. Grandma and bishop took the $$ concern out of the scenario. Now he doesnt have an easy out. Make sure you divulge as much info as you can without being pushy. Explain the temple and how everything is promised to the church. How the unchanging sacred cerimonies change like the wind. The temple is weird.. He will soon find out.

When he turned 17, after long discussion with wife, I agreed to pay for 1/2 of the mission if he saved the other half and read grant palmers book.

He saved 5000.00 before he turned 19. He never read the book and I didn't ask about it more than a few times.

Since grandparents have promised him money he has spent 3000 of the 5000 on....stuff...?

He refuses to read the book.

Might you be better able to reach him with video? Here's a little clip of Palmer in "The Mormons"
(I'd try making him watch the full documentary. Etc.)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Gn1w_sNnsE8

now.

promising money if he reads a book.

he is 19. I have raised him as well as I could. He is a great student, kind to animals and most of his younger siblings and a good person.

maybe I should let him figure it out.

he knows where I stand.

My son turns 19 in November. Several years ago I gave up talking him out of going on a mission. Not that he has a real burning desire to go, but he is a "pleaser" and will go because he would rather not disappoint his mother, grandparents, Bishop, etc.

Of course everyone was expecting me to wage a huge protest and fill his head with anti-Mormon stuff. They are a bit baffled that this hasn't occurred. In fact, I encourage and challenge him to go. I make no secret that I believe that by him going he will see the church for the sham that it really is. He needs to go be a door-to-door salesman for the church to see it for himself.

I have told him though that he would be a fool to spend his own money on such a venture. Since there are those who want him to go so badly, let them put THEIR money where their mouths are. I have also told him that once he is on his mission, to never forget that he is a volunteer and not to take any crap from anyone.

As his time nears I will offer more bits of advice to him. But I won't be discouraging him from going. He'll have to "man up" on his own for that.

damn good advice

If I hadn't gone on a mission I'd probably still be a kolobian today. Not active, mind you, but still chained to the god-making pyramid scheme nonetheless.

Letting him go sell afterlife insurance policies door-to-door for two years will definitely open his eyes.

Yes, it stinks that he's been sucked into the cult, but now that he is going on a mission, the mission itself is what I'd be mostly concerned with. The MTC alone would scare me as a parent.

Make sure he knows that he is a volunteer and he can come home whenever, if ever, he wants. You'll pay for the ticket home, pick him up, whatever.

If he goes foreign, remind him of the importance of always keeping a copy of his passport no matter what. I have heard that some mission presidents keep passports "for safe keeping" at the mission home.

Let him know that he can write you anything. If he's sick, scared, homesick he can let you know.

What else people? I've never been on a mission.

You mentioned above that you don't want to be part of the manipulation. I agree. He knows how you feel. Support him, love him, let him know you don't agree with it, but that you will always be there for him. I wouldn't focus on trying to sway him. That can push people away.

There are parents of missionaries, current and former, here on this board that I'm sure can give you a lot of great feedback.

I recall one dad knew his son loved movies. While the son was gone, I believe he kept a list of all the movies that he thought his son would be interested in for those two years and I think they were able to have some bonding over that.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 07/20/2011 12:56AM by Queen of Denial.

+1. I have a son who just turned 19. Apparently there is talk of him going on a mission, yet his mother and stepfather have just cancelled a long-awaited trip to stay home and "keep an eye on him" because he tends to "get into trouble" with his GF. One the one hand, I hope they (he and his GF) have lots of fun together, enough to keep him from going (although I also hope like hell they don't get pregnant). On the other hand, a likely scenario is that if he does become sexually involved, he will very likely feel lots of guilt, as he has done previously over masturbation/porn, and go through lots of self-recrimination and the obligatory confessional with the bishop, then "repent" and repeat, ad nauseum, until he either makes it on a mission or winds up married.

I have little say in the matter. He has been thoroughly indoctrinated and told many times over the years what a bad guy I am, etc etc.

If I had more access to him, I don't think I would be able to restrain myself from telling him the truth about the church at every opportunity. But I get that there are many possible approaches, and allowing a young adult child to find his/her own way is certainly a valid one.

beatnik Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> from going (although I also hope like hell they
> don't get pregnant). On the other hand, a likely

I hope like hell he doesn't get pregnant.

I'd be concerned too. And he should know that if he ever wants to come home for any reason that you'll be there for him.

You should also try to help him see the value of his health and not to do anything to jeopardize it.

But if he really wants to go...he is 19.

I am really disturbed by the part that he didn't know about the god as a man doctrine.

"I feel like I am part of the manipulation now. promising money if he reads a book."


"He was able to tell me that Grandma and Grandpa assured him that he would be unsuccessful in work and romance if he didn't go."


If he were my son, I would do my best to help him recognize manipulative behavior. I would explain that I felt I had tried to manipulate him with money and that it was wrong. I would apologize. I would then point out how the grandparents are also being manipulative. I would tell my son that I would respect any decisions he chooses to take. That going on a mission is hard and worthy of respect by itself but that I would respect him even more if he did it of his own conviction. I would challenge him to own his decisions and not do things because he feels pressured. And finally, as others have mentioned, I would emphasize that if he does go, he is a volunteer and ultimately he is responsible for how he uses his time. He should never abdicate that responsibility to anyone (not even a mission president). He always should believe in what he is doing. If he doesn't he shouldn't be doing it.

“Look son. If you go on a mission you will get asked questions, the same questions I asked you and you did not know this information that is real history about the church. The same church you will basically try to sell them. Do you want to look like an un-informed teenage dummy or as a well informed and intelligent young man? You are supposed to be the expert, go to guy, front face of the church, the missionary that knows the real deal. How can you possibly be that if you are less informed than those you are to teach. Son, it is you who will become the student if you go without doing your homework. Many missionaries come back home after they learn this basic truth. Go if you feel you must but don’t go as an ignorant child.”

“One more thing son. This is a threat, “He was able to tell me that Grandma and Grandpa assured him that he would be unsuccessful in work and romance if he didn't go.” Would this be the way that an intelligent and loving being would operate?”



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 07/20/2011 01:58AM by AmIDarkNow?.

I am glad you are being honest and clued him in on somethings as no one else wil Hopefully one day he will remember and thank you. Do tell him more about the Temple, how families are not kind to those who leave the LDS but they are to be the very best examples of family around.

I agree that he should be embarrassed if asked the same questions you asked him and more and he can't tell the answers. Ask him if he feels only telling investigators a portion of what Mormonism is all about is fair or what God would want. Ask him if he had to choose feeding and cloting his family or giving 10 percent to an organization, what would he do.What comes first. I feel sorry you have to see him endure two yrs. of this garbage. Don't know where he is going but do tell him you will pay and pick him up anywhere if he wants to come home. And as for being shunned by anyone if he comes home early or doesn't go at all....well, does God like and encourage us to judge others? Mormons love to judge and it is so unChristian. l

Ask your son to watch this video and then discuss the lyrics with him. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PHEqCXY2B-w&feature=related

You mentioned he wasn't big on the POGP. Well here it is in all it's glory.

Your son needs to understand the harsh reality of being a missionary.

Up until I went on a mission, I was told the rosy picture of what being a missionary would be like, especially from my grandparents. But I did not think about the fact that they came from a different time long ago, a time where a missionary was treated with respect by the church.

I was told over and over again that serving a mission would be this wonderful spiritual experience serving with my fellow young brethren while having the constant companionship of the Holy Ghost guiding you and your companion to honest seekers of the gospel and testifying daily to you that the gospel was true. It would be an experience that, once you returned home, you would be like a saturated sponge dripping with spiritual experiences and with wisdom beyond your years. It was not like this in any way.

In reality, all you do is go door to door trying to sell a religion to already happy people, a religion that is making your life a living hell. As a missionary, I hated tracting with a passion and that is all I ever seemed to do on my mission. The drudgery of spending all day, every day, weekends and holidays, knocking on doors and being told to "get lost" drove me into the ground.

The degree of being told to get lost varied widely from a polite "no thanks" to having guns shoved into my face, but rejection is rejection no matter how it is dished out. A person cannot receive daily non-stop rejection and be immune to it.

Your son will find himself just merely existing to get up in the morning and going tracting, maybe eating some lunch if he could afford it, then go do more tracting, have some swill quality dinner, then doing even more tracting and then maybe, if he is lucky, go to a teaching appointment that, almost without fail, will fall through. The next day he will do the same thing, and the next day, and the next day, and the next day, and the next day...all week...week after week...month after month. Work without end, toil without reward. And he will be doing this while working under an exhaustive set of double-bind rules to ensure that he fails keeping him in a perpetual state of jumping through hoops in order to make himself worthy to the Lord or to the mission leaders. When in reality nothing he ever does will be good enough.

Serving a mission is no fun, period. It is a colossal waste of time and money. That’s what a mission is all about.

We have at times sent men on missions to get rid of them; but they have generally come back. Some think it is an imposition upon the world to send such men among them. But which is best—to keep them here to pollute others, or to send them where pollution is more prevalent?

Author: Brigham Young
Source: Journal Of Discourses
Volume: 7
Page: 229

I agree with the above post. A mission is nothing but drugery. I lost who I was on my mission, and only recently have fully understood what it was that happened to me there.

My son went on his mission 2006.

Here are some memorable highlights;

Unnecessary surgery at the MTC which has given him continual health problems ever since. He is having yet more surgery next month. They were in such a rush to get him out the door they just jumped in and operated on a 20year old thousands of miles from home and ill informed as to what was going on.

A bullying first comp who was upset because an investigator wanted my son to do the baptism, made my son's life a misery until a senior couple noticed what was going on.

Dengue fever (also known as 'breakbone fever' because of the acute pain). No real medical care and an expectation to be back at work as soon as his temperature returned to normal. Usually dengue fever takes weeks to make a full recovery from.

Held up at gun point by a gang and roughed up.

Saw one of his investigators shot dead from about thirty feet away. My son had just left the house. Had to hide in bushes, afraid they would be next. MP moved them to another town on the island.

Held by customs and roughed up again, because paperwork was not in order (fault of the mission office). Told by customs guys they could make him and his companion 'disappear'.

Health steadily deteriorated until a doctor he consulted said he should talk to his parents about coming home for emergency medical care. Called his mission pres who said he would call us but didn't. After several days son calls us, MP finds out, enraged at my son's disobedience puts him on next plane home and refused to give him honourabgle release. This despite my son having worked really hard for two years, at his OWN expense.

MP also made his own medical diagnosis from an island hundreds of miles away from my son, and told him he was making a fuss about nothing. He was totally wrong.

And as the icing on the cake, pre-malignant melonoma, prob what happens when you spend two years in the tropics, when you have fair irish skin. Despite protection of garments.

Would never send another son or daughter on a mission. Wouldn't trust ChurchCo with a guinea-pig.

These are just a few of the things that happened. Now he is being harrassed by his Bishop and SP because he has stopped attending church. Sadly his wife is TBM. Although not his wife for much longer according to SP and Bishop, because of son's loss of faith. Apparently my son has 'toxic thoughts' according to the SP, and has brought his illnesses on himself because of his lack of faith and obedience. Abusive bastards.

Mormons take a young adult and make him feel like a child in a chain gang. There are great risks going to a foreign country under conditions where your passport is taken and you are given inadequate food/clothing/sleep/alone time. The biggest threat is to the young man's mental health under these conditions. Lifelong damage can result.

Facts about the church being false do not help, as you have already discovered. Here's what might help. Remind your young man that he is a full-grown adult male who could be in the army serving his country, carrying firearms and grenades, trusted to use his own judgment on whether or not to KILL someone. This is what the normal society sees when they look at him. A MAN.

His first priority is to maintain his physical and emotional health. His first priority is NOT to complete an honorable mission. This is not Africa and he is not a 12 year old proving himself by killing a lion. He does not have to prove anything, tell him, in America he is already a man.

It is superstition to believe that serving a mission is any kind of guarantee that he will have "luck" in romance and employment. Just substitute "juju" power for the word "luck" and you begin to see how ridiculous that is. Remember the promise of H. B. Lee that we would not "lose" our families if we held Family Home Evening? Just ask on this board how many people held Family Home Evening and "lost" their children.

Read to him the Mongolian Mission newsletter where the Mission President loses his child to Sudden Infant Death Syndrome and the next day another child in their ward dies. Were they doing something wrong? Jesus was asked "What has this man's parents done that he was born blind?" He said NOTHING! There was no connection whatsoever. Jesus did not believe that we are blessed by freedom from pain if we follow the rules, pray often, etc. What is the greatest concern of the Mongolian mission? The number of missionaries who have left the church.

It is important that you treat your son like an adult and support his decision. It is extremely important that you give him the empowerment to leave should he find conditions such that his physical or psychological health is imperiled. Self-preservation is strong but cult conditioning can overcome it. Tell him that acting like an adult means taking responsibility for YOUR SELF and your own survival.

Tell him you want a copy of the passport as a backup and that you are there for him to help him come home if he needs to. He should make three color copies of his passport before he leaves, two for you and one for him so that he take that to the American embassy in case they refuse to let him leave.

Describe to him the difference between military service and working for a church as a volunteer. He should also trust his own instincts and be responsible for the ethics of everything he does. If he acts against his own ethics, he must live with it the rest of his life. He may encounter starving children, for example, and be told to do nothing about it.

This may not bother some young men, but it may haunt yours. Discuss it with him. Ask him what he would do if a child comes to him with an open wound and he has the ability and supplies to bandage it. yet he has been told not to do anything but spread the gospel. Talk about these situations so that your son knows that he can come to you about these conflicts. He will be better prepared if he knows about the conflicts that you have read about on this forum. And who knows, he might find himself so horrified by these facts, he may change his mind.

Good luck and we're here for you.

Anagrammy

Best wishes to you and your family as you work this out, concerned dad.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 07/20/2011 07:14PM by nevermo-beck.

19YO's generaly make decisions based on social reward and passion. The BS detector is not yet developed. In fact, he may have the "warm-fuzzy" about the mission decision directly from God.

Unfortunatly, a mission generally sets in place a path for the next several years. While you hope someday he will see the "Church" for what it is, a mission dramatically increases his social investment.

Personally, I deeply regret the time, effort, and energy I put into my mission. I turned away from those who truly cared about me for who I was in favor or the "Church friends" and influences who were only intersted in the "Mormon Me."

I suggest asking him questions that may help turn on the BS detector, like: "I can tell you are very passionate about your beliefs. Have you ever known of others who have passionate beliefs that were not in their best interests? Why do you think they were so passionate about those beliefs?"

If he were to remain a stalwart member, then not going on a mission may interfere with his business and social progress.

I like the idea of offering yourself as a way out if he doesn't want to finish the effort, and that you will talk down anyone who tries to make him feel like a bad person if he doesn't finish his mission. Best of all, I like when you told him it is a volunteer position, and not to forget that very special piece. He isn't a failure if he doesn't feel like finishing. To you, that would be no disgrace whatsoever. Also that romance is not based on whether he finishes. There are attractive women out there who would actually run the other direction if you told them you were a return missionary. :)

make final decisions about whether to marry a man based on a number of factors - not just whether one is a returned missionary

even young mormon women

i have tried to teach him that honesty, caring, hard work, self control, etc. etc. are more important than church membership in the end.

but as mentioned above, he is 19 - his thought processes may be different than they will be when he is older

in any event
thanks for all the comments - this board has a lot of intelligent and caring contributors

I love you son and support your choices as a parent. I do not believe the same as you do. However I love you and will support you in your efforts.

That support may be in th form of letters money whatever.

Your son will learn all the Mormon bs.

I think this book would help explain why I believe the way i do if you choose to read it you will understand my beliefs a bit better.

Things to tell any LDS missionary (or anyone that does not want to be a missionary).

1. You are an ADULT. Think and act like it. As an adult, you make choices and you are responsible for those choices regardless of who influenced you to make the choice and regardless of what type of persuasion was used.

2. If you choose to discuss your sex life with someone who has ulterior motives, regardless of whether the discussion was supposedly in confidence, you can reasonably expect that someone to use that information to coerce you. Knowledge is power. The more someone knows about you, the more power they have over you. Confession in the LDS culture invariably comes back at you in the form of coercion.

3. You are a VOLUNTEER. As such, you are in a superior position. The LDS church is asking you for your help. If you chose to extend your kindness to the church by VOLUNTEERING to perform some kind of function, the church needs to understand its position as the recipient of charity. If any mission president, stake president, bishop or other so called leader makes demands of you, remind him that beggars can't be choosers and he is in no position to demand anything of you, AN ADULT VOLUNTEER.

4. Money + passport + clear thinking = freedom.
You are an adult, you are a volunteer, there is no binding contract. You can be a missionary on Sunday and a tourist the rest of the week if you so choose. You don't need their permission to be a missionary. You can go knock doors anywhere you want at anytime without anyone's permission, blessing, calling, or setting apart. You don't need anyone's permission to be a tourist at anytime. You can tour anywhere you choose at anytime. It's your belief system that both limits and empowers you.

5. In the United States, they cannot 'send' you home. They can only coerce you into agreeing to go home. In the USA, you have the option of telling the mission president you will go home on your schedule, not his. If he has trouble understanding that, I'm certain the local police will help him understand the you are a FREE ADULT, not an indentured servant.

6. I'm not sure about the visa requirements in a foreign countries as far as a mission president being able to send you home. Research the law before you go so you'll know what kind of legal power a mission president has in the country you are going to, but in the USA they cannot 'send' you home.

7. Take a credit card, a telephone calling card, and a photocopy of your passport with you. That's what any rational adult would do. DO NOT TELL ANYONE about them. They are your ticket out. Keep your options open.

8. Take care of yourself. Make sure you get enough sleep. Make sure you eat right. Make sure you are safe. Make sure you are healthy. Make sure you keep private matters private. That all sounds obvious. What isn't obvious to some missionaries is that obeying rules does not relieve one from natural consequences. If people around you are not allowing you to take care of yourself, they are not your friends. Simply tell them that you are not available for whatever it is they want you to do. If they as why, simply say you don't care to discuss that. Do not present your reasons for debate. You are an ADULT. You do not have to defend your reasons for your decisions. You do have to live in the environment you create with your decisions.

9. Print this out and take it with you.