And when you told the BP that you were a full tithe payer he pulled out the records and tried to challenge you? I either out right lied or justified that I was paying as much tithing as I could afford when I knew it wasn't 10% several times at temple recommend interviews. I was never challenged. I never had a salary that would have been known by a bishop.

Nope. Can't lie so well when in the military. Once they actually had a military pay chart laying in plain view on the Bish's desk. And they know what rank everybody is. Really stunk.

Mrs. Solar Flare Wrote:
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> Nope. Can't lie so well when in the military.
> Once they actually had a military pay chart laying
> in plain view on the Bish's desk. And they know
> what rank everybody is. Really stunk.

as others have mentioned on previous threads, you could always claim that you pay direct to SLC, and they can never check how much

Regardless of what rank you are, it isn't an indication of your net income for the year. For example, you may have incurred a loss on an investment property or share portfolio. The Bishop is just an administrator who ticks the box "Full", "Part", etc.

I tried to tell my Bishop that I wasn't paying tithing, he didn't want to hear that so he attempted to 'lead the witness' by saying 'okay, so you're a part tithe payer...

You can get a temple recommend by being a 'part' tithe payer these days.

Stumbling Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> I tried to tell my Bishop that I wasn't paying
> tithing, he didn't want to hear that so he
> attempted to 'lead the witness' by saying 'okay,
> so you're a part tithe payer...
>
> You can get a temple recommend by being a 'part'
> tithe payer these days.

I heard different... the only Part tithe payers who can get recommends are part member families

[of course these decisions are probably very regional - maybe even down to individual bishops..... sort of like the old 'oral sex' debacle.... some wards (like mine) made a big thing of it, in others it wasn't even mentioned]

I paid tithing, and rounded up. Of course, I wasn't making any money at the time.

Also, my nevermo wife did not want to pay on her income. Good for her!

The local LDS I know here have all told me that they don't check, that they are told 10% of "Increase" and to judge for themselves what that is, and that the temple recommend interview generally asks if you've been keeping all your covenants, but not specifically if you've been a full tithe payer.

The Mormon Church is much kinder and gentler in towns with such a small Mormon population.

I am the member in a part member family and paid almost a full tithe - it was a LOT of money. Bishop said that was fine and I should consider it a full tithe. Then he got circumspect, discussed it with SP, and SP said it wasn't a full tithe. Wife would not let me have a recommend anyway; I was just trying to do the right thing and I am totally truthful about everything. SP told the bishop, "if we approve his then everyone will want to do it" - straight up! I figure I will take a nice break from tithe paying and I am seriously thinking of taking a long hiatus from church period because of this and a lot of other things. I usually only lurk here but I thought this was worth posting. For what its worth I am a believer but hate what the church is becoming during my time in the fold. Comes a time when one has to wake up and either quit or sit. I am thinking of making them kick me out!

Odd how it seems to be so much about the money, doesn't it?

Balaamsass, welcome to the board. I am a missionary for the Do Not Pay Tithing to LD$Inc mindset. Your SP is an ass. YOU and only YOU determine whether or not you are paying a full tithe. That is not for the SP to decide.
Did you know that scripturally, tithing was originally intended to be 10% of SURPLUS? Look it up in DC 119:5

"Verily I say unto you, it shall come to pass that all those who gather unto the land of Zion shall be tithed of their SURPLUS properties, and shall observe this law, or they shall not be found worthy to abide among you."

The modern day LD$ Churchco interprets DC 119 to mean 10% of gross income, but isn't that a rather self-serving definition for them to inerpet it that way? "interest" is not and never was a synonym for gross income in any english dictionary. Pay whatever you want, and call it a full-tithe. A full tithe is whatever you give voluntarily to the church. The minute the leaders start telling you that you can't do this or that, or have a temple recommend unless you pay more money to them, it doesn't become a tithe anymore. It just becomes extortion.

Thanks for the welcome back! And the Bishop told me that the church didn't consider tithing income.....Now greedy I may be sometimes, but rarely stupid. Why does City Creek Mall cost more now than the Burj al Dubai (which I have seen in person, so I know what I am comparing)? That's gotta hurt the bottom line. In fact, the past year seems to be a non-stop PBS pledge drive...I have only been in four years but even I am surprised at the never ending nagging to do thus and so from the GA's. Anyone else notice that it's particularly bad over the last several months?

That's funny since Orthodox Jews don't even tithe today they accept free will offerings. God mandated by his written code of Old Covenant law that only the Tribe of Levi were authorized to collect the tithes and it was from the other Tribes in the Nation of Israel who were Landowners only!

I'm with beulahland in that it seems like things get crazier in Utah. I can't imagine my bishop asking for W2s. In fact, a couple years ago I moved into a new ward for work and never paid a cent of tithing and the bishop didn't think anything of it. He always just said they were glad I was there. There were almost no members.

One of the best things about moving around a lot for us was that nobody knew who we were or how much we had paid. So when we showed up to church and never paid tithing but said we were full tithe payers, they never knew the difference.

No, can't remember lying about it.

Ron

I stopped paying tithing about a year before I stopped going to church. At first it was because I was broke and put rent and food ahead of tithing. I intended to pay it back, but then I started doubting the church. As my doubts about the church mounted, my desire to pay tithing declined.

A few years ago I calculated my back tithing and it was about the same as my IRA. My choice is to save up for retirement, or hand it all over to LDS, Inc. I think I'd rather look after myself.

It just dawned on me. You can look up the salary of any state employee by name. Is Utah the only state where that is possible? It must be awfully useful come tithing settlement time.

Wonder which inspired Utah legislator thought that up?

Just a little FYI, it's not a Utah thing. All states post State employee salaries.

So how can anyone afford to pay tithing on gross income when Uncle Sam, retirment plans, etc. has already eaten up about 30% or more of that? Do they really know if you only tithe on your net?

I have a friend that has been less active for years and not paid a full tithe but wants to get re-activated and get her temple recommend renewed. How far back or how long (if she starts today) does she have to pay tithing in order to re-enter the temple? She has a very liberal and nice bishop who said he believes in rewarding people for their faith and what is in their heart. Unfortunately the church says tithing must be paid to enter that holy house. Even though her Bishop may have a big heart I do have to wonder what the stake president might say.

I only paid on net my entire adult married life. I was never asked by a single bishop if it was gross or net during tithing settlement. I asked one bishop late in my married life if it was okay to pay the 10% on net and he about had kittens and promptly corrected me that it was based on gross. So I did some searching on tithing in my LDS software (you know, that library that was an archive of every talk, magazine, etc...) and found the talks were equally split on saying 'net' or 'gross' so I didn't sweat it and kept paying on net.

I skipped two months of tithing every year in order to pay property taxes, paid on net, and said I was a full tithepayer every year. LD$ Inc won't foreclose on my house if I don't pay them. The county will.

Why can’t we pay what we want to pay for only? Why do we have to follow what they say? I mean tithing is fine, but it should not be fixed for me. Let say I have expenses at home for kids education, house furnishing etc. Do I still have to give the usual I give for tithing or can I get some relief.

I bet even raptorjesus would sanction you retaining your own hard earned dollars. Wouldn't your praise, rejoicing, and worship of whatever god you choose be that much greater and freer if you had less stress in your life over money?

You have permission to keep or spend your money as needed. If some of that goes to a church backing a deity, so be it. But you are under no obligation but your own will.

I wish we had lied about it. My ex made pretty good money, so that was a chunk of change that could have been applied to FAR better causes.

The only tithing settlement I remember going to was pretty low-key. The bishop actually said he wasn't sure what the point of the meeting really was, asked if we paid a full tithe, took our word for it, then used the time for a friendly, casual check in.

My last tithing settlement meeting:

Bishop "Stumbling, do you pay a full tithe?"
Stumbling "Bishop can you show me specifically where all the tithing I've paid so far has been spent?"
Bishop *crickets*
Stumbling "I'll answer your question when you can answer mine"

I guess my income was never even something I could lie about if I wanted. A family of four could barely live on what I made so if I'd tried to say I made less, it would have been obvious.

But my thing was either I paid a full tithe or I paid nothing. You can't go to the temple if you're paying 8% or 9%. so why pay anything? I had a bishop who told me that I should at least contribute as much as I could. I said "Why"? Of course, it was so that I could get some blessings. I said, "if I paid what I feel I can, can I get a TR?" Of course the answer was "No, but it will help you work toward being able to pay a full 10% so you can." I was like "no thank you, I'll feed my children instead."

The only reason I tried to keep one was so I could go to weddings. I gave up on trying to do endowments without feeling like I was taking Satan into the temple with me (because I could never feel "the spirit" and it felt evil to me--go figure) in 1980.

I know for a fact that people who say 'part tithe payer' at tithing settlement do not have their recommends taken away.

The Church cannot afford to lose the income from part tithe payers.

I beg to differ. It all depends on the bishop you have. I used to have a bishop that wanted both my TR and my wife's TR when I claimed partial tithepayer one year. He made no bones about it. As soon as I said the words "partial" he held his hand out and the next thing out of his mouth was "Then I need to take your recommend and your wife's recommend".

NormaRae Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> You can't go to the temple if you're paying 8% or 9%. so why pay anything?

Mormonism is a "pay to play" system. You're either paying for blessings or paying to go to the temple. So I think your attitude is understandable.

My assertion is that most mainstream Christians donate in the range of 1-3% of their gross income. Some well-to-do church members choose to donate more. However these are true donations, not extorted monies, and the members understand that most of their funds are used to support their own church. If you look at church budgets online, 80% or better of donated funds stay in-house to cover salaries, maintenance, programs, etc. Since people donate only a reasonable amount (which is proportional to their income, and an amount they feel comfortable donating,) they don't begrudge it. If your family is suffering from unemployment, illness, etc. then you don't have to donate anything. No church authority would deny you blessings, sacraments, ordinances, etc. simply because you could not pay. I think that most people would consider that to be unChristian. The Catholic church learned that lesson a long time ago with the scandal over paying for indulgences.

I saw an ad in the paper over the weekend for a church administrative assistant. The position is at a really lovely, pleasant Episcopal church in a parklike setting -- I've visited it for events many times. The position is for only 30 hours per week and would be great for a working mom. So for the money that members donate, they get the routine labor of the church done for them (no mandatory callings!) and a member of the community gets a much needed job and an economic boost.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 07/11/2011 01:04PM by summer.

I attend a UU church now and it is my haven here in ultra-fundamentalist Memphis. I'll admit, as most people I go to church with will, that I go for the social aspect and for the organized social justice outreach.

We have a pledge drive every year and this year I uped my pledge to about 3% of my income (take home). I don't increase my pledge because I like having money to donate to specific things at the church when it's something I feel could use a little extra or a youth program or whatever. It's nice to know that whatever I can give is not only appreciated, but I get a full accounting of what it goes for. And yes, in addition to a minister, it goes for a primary president (not exactly that title), an administive assistant, janitorial service, grounds crew and music person. That gives the congregants time to volunteer for what they WANT to do.

I don't know how it would work out if TSCC went from a full 10% to a fair pledge system in order to get a TR. People like the old me would have paid some when I didn't pay anything if I couldn't do 10%, but I'm sure a lot of 10 percenters would decrease, so it might not work out in the wash.

...court-ordered child support to me. I found the tithing slip in our daughter's diaper bag.

Kinda sick that she would give money to TSCC but not to me for the care of our child.

ultra-fundamentalist Memphis
BUT... ya gots Neely's Interstate and rendezvous.... and many more!! all we got is Cuban food!! fried plantains n such i am not really into it!! mojo pork is damn good though!! :)
and no tithing for me...gross or net!! :)

It was the last day I attended church. Christmas. Didn't quite have the nerve to pay nothing. Wasn't sure at the time that I wasn't coming back. By March I knew I could never go back to the TSCC. but in December I was still a little bit mormon.


So I paid 90.00, that included less than 1% I'd gotten from the sale of some property and a little tiny paycheck I'd received.

The total for the year was about 1200.00 I think I made 13,000. that year. With four kids to support! Miracle worker...me...and God...

So I boldly looked the new BP in the eye and told him "I've had a bad year this year."

Of course, he happened to be an honorable Dr./Surgeon, probably felt guilty as hell taking money from a widow (well mom on her own without husband). He never argued.

I try not to begrudge that last check, but I know it really was my last; ever!!!!! Hooray!

(too bad, my kids would have liked to have had their shoes replaced sooner and I would have liked to have ladies blouses instead of industrial t-shirts to wear during those years we paid tithing and didn't go to the dentist...while the church wasted and spent the money on the GAs vacations, 1st class air travel, hunting preserves, hotel suites and Armani suits and we did without....and got persecuted by the other ward members because we were "poor" in their eyes... we weren't; we were just broke..:D !))