On Sunday, June 5th, the lesson in RS was about the RS history and motherhood. (Roll eyes big time) I didn't mind listening to the lesson, but when the teacher started talking about that goddamn mother fucking nails-on-a-chalkboard 1950-fucked-up-mindset worst-GC-talk-of-all-time "Mothers Who Know" by Julie Blech, I just walked out.

That was the last straw for me.

I still believe in going to SM for that ordinance (I'm a Shadow Mormon) but TBM DH says he respects my desire to only attend one meeting.

My mouth is still gaping in shock.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 06/13/2011 12:09PM by imalive.

Being a male born in the 60's, I don't know the exact content of the referenced talk, but if it was by a female in the 1950's, I can certainly imagine what it could contain that would rile a modern day woman.

One of the last times I went to Sunday School, the teacher opened up a book of mormon, and announced that we were going to talk about Lehi's Dream. The BofM was one of the hot buttons for me, and I knew I wasn't going to be able to sit through that drivel. So I got up immediately and left as the teacher started the lesson.

Walking out is certainly empowering, isn't it?

Misfit, the talk is actually rather recent, it is only the mind-set that is from the 1950's!

Oops, misunderstood, thanks.
Yes, that is a terrible talk!
Now I see what you mean!

Was that the 1950s AD or the 1950s BCE?

Remember, women weren't allow to speak in GC in the 1950's.

How nauseating. Good for you.

You done good! Took a stand.

Here's the link to that piece-of-shit talk:

http://lds.org/general-conference/2007/10/mothers-who-know?lang=eng

It is the most appalling example of how women are definitely second-class citizens in TSCC.

A few quotes to get you started:

"Mothers who know desire to bear children. Whereas in many cultures in the world children are “becoming less valued,” in the culture of the gospel we still believe in having children. Prophets, seers, and revelators who were sustained at this conference have declared that “God’s commandment for His children to multiply and replenish the earth remains in force.” President Ezra Taft Benson taught that young couples should not postpone having children . . ."

No shit, Sherlock! And I'll be goddamned if I'll let either of my kids go to any TSCC school and be told how to marry, when to marry, and how and when to have their kids! FUCK YOU BITCH.

"Mothers who know honor sacred ordinances and covenants. I have visited sacrament meetings in some of the poorest places on the earth where mothers have dressed with great care in their Sunday best despite walking for miles on dusty streets and using worn-out public transportation. They bring daughters in clean and ironed dresses with hair brushed to perfection; their sons wear white shirts and ties and have missionary haircuts."

OMFG! So it's only appearance that counts and not Christ Himself, eh???? Go fuck yourself and those jackass goddamn TSCC dress standards!

"Another word for nurturing is homemaking. Homemaking includes cooking, washing clothes and dishes, and keeping an orderly home. Home is where women have the most power and influence; therefore, Latter-day Saint women should be the best homemakers in the world."

Gees I never found THAT in a thesaurus!!!!!!!!

"Mothers who know do less. They permit less of what will not bear good fruit eternally. They allow less media in their homes, less distraction, less activity that draws their children away from their home. Mothers who know are willing to live on less and consume less of the world’s goods in order to spend more time with their children . . . ."

With the huge number of kids these type of women have, how in the fucking can they NOT live on less and consume less of the world's goods???????? Talk about-head-up-her-ass thinking!

Thank you for letting me vent some spleen.

You have set a new boundary relative to what you will and will not accept from the church, imalive. Way to go!

of TSCC. I honestly cannot see how any woman could continue in this church, given the history and doctrine of plurality. I mean, if your a power mongering male, well yeah, I can see why such a paradigm would be enticing. For woman, I just don't get it. I'm so glad that I was able to rescue 4/5 daughters from this mindset. I'm you posted this, inclusive of your disgrundlement and rage toward such a sexist organization. That's exactly what I would expect from any woman.

Wow. I actually read that whole article, and just... Wow. I can't believe anyone still thinks this way.

I totally agree with you. I'm a woman, and I just don't get why any other woman would want to be TBM. So cool that you were able to rescue most of your daughters from TSCC. :-)

Yeah, that's a terrible talk. I remember when it was delivered. We had quite a conversation about it here on RfM.

Good for you for bearing your testimony with your feet!

Beck said another word for 'nurturing' was 'homemaking'

Then goes on to tell of a 'house of order' etc. Nice orderly home that looks like the temple (boring celestial room)

But wait, that fits! She is supposed to go with less! Less books and media, because you'll never find a book case with books in a celestial room!

(But you can make your couch out of piled up bags of wheat with a blanket on top of them!) But wait, I didn't see any food storage in the Celestial room either!
I'm so confused....?

Nurture means to help someone develop their dreams and talents last time I looked. So that might mean you have some of your kid's 'projects' out, like their art work, or lego creations.

So people who have very little in their homes are the best nurturers? They can sit starving in a mud hut but they're being 'nurtured'????

Ha ha ha ha ha!

I remember that talk, not so much what was said, but the clothes they wear.

I kept thinking...there is no way I'd be called cause I am not wearing that.

But yes that talk was revolting at best.

Oy VEY!

and bring their families with them! Proof positive The Boyz are intentionally keeping women down but women like imalive are SMART and won't take it anymore! Good for you!!!

"Mothers who know are willing to live on less and consume less of the world’s goods in order to spend more time with their children—more time eating together, more time working together, more time reading together, more time talking, laughing, singing, and exemplifying."

This is why I left. I can guarantee there wasn't any singing going on over here. Sometimes we would be having fun but then mom would have to go to achievement days to show other people's kids crafts. Sundays we would have a delicious breakfast that dad couldn't have with us because he had to leave early for a pointless church meeting. Reading together puhlease like you can do that with 10 kids running around. It is called making the oldest kid take on the responsibilities of a parent because no one woman can really do all that they are saying. Enter depression.

If anything all the church busywork TOOK AWAY from my family's time together.

(You don't think I really know it all, do you?)

I heard that talk in General Conference. I was all alone, and screamed at the TV.

Congratulations on walking out! I wonder how many other women wanted to follow you out the door.

Mothers who know create dysfunctional families and mixed-up kids. I was raised by one. We sure did appear perfect on the outside.

Do "mothers who know" ever get to do anything for themselves?

IAMALIVE Your pretty awesome.

...nails-on-a-chalkboard 1950-fucked-up-mindset worst-GC-talk-of-all-time, "To the Women of the Church," by Gordo the Blowhard (circa 2003, only sounds like 1950).

**caveat: have a condesention barf bag ready.

http://lds.org/general-conference/2003/10/to-the-women-of-the-church?lang=eng

My favorite: "Now we have granddaughters who are mothers. They visit us, and I marvel at their patience, at their capacity to calm their children, to stop them from crying, and it seems to me to do a thousand other things. They drive cars, they run computers, they attend the activities of their children, they cook and sew, they teach classes, and they speak in church."

WOW! In 2003, he's marveling at the fact that women drive cars? And RUN computers? (Does that mean they know how to push the 'on' button and make it run?) And they speak in church! Amazing what women can do!

But if you haven't barfed yet, here it comes: "Some of you, unfortunately, will never marry in this life. That turns out to be the case sometimes. If that happens, do not spend your life grieving over it. The world still needs your talents. It needs your contribution."

Yes ladies, the world still needs you. Quit grieving, yes, it's unfortunate, but it just turns out to be the horrible case sometimes.

Oh Gawd, WHY did I even go there again. Every time I read this I start shaking on the inside. I hope Gordo is rotting in Hell where he belongs.

IMALIVE you made my day!!!

... to stay and point out everything that is wrong with the talk?

That would've been another way to handle it but I was so FURIOUS and PISSED OFF and ENRAGED that I was not in a fit state of mind to think logically, so I left because I was shaking so hard and was starting to cry too.

as with iamalive...this is so wrong.

They bring daughters in clean and ironed dresses with hair brushed to perfection; their sons wear white shirts and ties and have missionary haircuts.

As a relatively poor convert with several kids...appearances weren't always tidy whiteys...oh man...it just came to me
the new name for the LDS ...

Tidy Whiteys

ok so I rant a little...

Their goal is to prepare future fathers and mothers who will be builders of the Lord’s kingdom for the next 50 years. That is influence; that is power.

influence and power...and looking neat!

I guess that the Virgin Mary wasn't a 'mother who knows' because her son didn't wear a white shirt or have a missionary haircut. Can we say 'Pharisees'? Geez! Yes, it is nice to have your kids look neat and well groomed in public, but if they aren't it is hardly a moral failing or the sign of a bad mother.Kids have a knack for looking like unmade beds even if you worked hard to clean them up. I also doubt God cares what you wear to church. As boring as the Morg is, he ought to be grateful that you showed up at all.

Unless they mean I'm going to be assigned to some dork head who just barely made it to godhood who received a primitive podunk planet in the middle of nowhere

A dork who you will share others with that also may have been "assigned". Yea! Ain't womanhood great!



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 06/14/2011 12:34AM by AmIDarkNow?.

I went to my car and cooled off after ten minutes, then went back in. No one said anything to me. I was felling like I was able to control myself then. And the lesson was drawing to a close, too.

My mother thought "she knew." But once I fully came out of the closet right after my mission, she realized she didn't know ANYTHING!!!

You're screwed! Now you are paying such uber attention that if it mades you sick in SS I guarantee you that SM is not the antidote. SM will make it worse as it did for me. The BS statements of certainty and plethora of unfounded, and ignorant fallacious faith promoting non logic will do you in. Just like it did me.

You are paying way to close attention to what is really being said now and even though they are saying it it makes you ill that they cannot hear or comprehend the words coming out of their mouths. You now hear clearly but you feel that everyone else is deaf as in your head you'll screaming "for Gods sakes! Did you not just hear what you said!".

You are headed to the only cure. You're screwed.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 06/14/2011 01:11AM by AmIDarkNow?.

I am very lucky to have a husband who treats me great, and he's a TBM. I told him on the phone about how I felt and he was fully supportive of how I handled the situation (he's in the military and undergoing training for a year-long deployment overseas so we couldn't chat in person). He has even said I can totally stay away and just drop the kids off for the three hours of church, but I want to show them my support by at least staying for SM.

I am what's called a Shadow Mormon.

I know this may strike you as utterly odd; each family has to handle such situations in ways that work for them. My DH is having the kids going to church until they graduate from high school, then they can decide whether or not to keep attending. He is showing total respect for all of us by doing this. I agreed to uphold this rule because this is the compromise we have worked out. Our kids also have friends there at church and want to keep them as friends.

Yes it's a very awkward tight-rope situation. We are all doing the best we can and this is how we are working stuff out.

I do respect your POV.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 06/14/2011 10:42AM by imalive.

I also walked out one time when it became clear to me what a bunch of homophobes they really were (I wasn't out of the closet yet so they didn't bother to conceal it).

went back to being over the top TBM--I have had the "opportunity" to listen to conference. This was one of those talks I heard. All I could think while listening was "I thought I knew, I thought I knew."

The other talk that infuriated me was by Russell Nelson about temple marriage and any other marriage was just a cheap substitute or something like that. I fired off a letter to one of the men who told me I needed to "save" my gay boyfriend by marrying him--and here I was a single mother. (My daughter was asleep by the time this talk came on.)

Way to go! I doubt I would have ever dared walk out.

I remember about 2 years ago in Sunday School when I was TBM, the teacher (female) kept making comments every so often about it being ok for women to hold degrees and work etc... She kept quoting modern day talks by GA's and such too.

I must admit, I believed in the concept myself, however, my motives are more economics 101 than has to do with gender matters. In my opinion, the door swings both ways. A man can easily be the primary care giver as much as a woman. But I based and still do base my views on the trade offs between paying for day care vs. what one earns while working. Of course, there are some intangible factors that need to be weighed into this such as job satisfaction and a desire to want to be productive/independence.

But when I was TBM, I wasn't quite this liberal about the intangibles since I didn't want anyone teaching their views on my children other than my wife or I. I still feel this way but not as a means of protecting my kids from being currupted by another religion but mostly for bonding.

But its incredible how psycho how LDS get with teaching their views. Its like they have to scare you into following it word for word.

being home with the kids. I felt the same way, but the overall message in this talk was about being subservient--being your children's slave and your only purpose or value in life is being that slave. I worked part-time evenings while my ex took care of the kids. It had an excellent impact on their relationships.

My boss--company owner--is a working mother and her husband stays home and takes care of the kids. He has a Master's Degree, but this works for them--but he is treated like a failure in Utah because of their choices.

It is also up to the individual to decide how they handle their own lives.