Hi everyone! I am the wife of a “jack Mormon” (how he once described himself) and a recent UofU grad. I’ve been on the boards before but it was about twenty years ago! I have an important question that I’m hoping you guys can share some insight on, and it’s regarding the narcissistic tendencies of someone who grew up in a controlling religion. Please know I’m not asking for marital advice (although I’d accept it!), I’m just going into great detail so you get the full picture to help offer insight, if anyone has some. Thank you!

In my husband’s case, he has shared a lot with me regarding his experiences growing up in the church, but it comes in chunks and pieces over 19 years of marriage. Here is what I have pieced together: He claims he didn’t believe the church was true since around the time he was baptized, but he kept it to himself so as not to hurt his parents’ feelings. He said he hated having to go in to talk to the bishop because he had to lie the entire time, and the questions were sometimes in appropriate. He told me once that up until a couple years ago he actually believed that the people he was proxy baptized for would go to hell because he didn’t believe. He continued the lie (by omission) regarding his beliefs until his parents gave up on him going to church (and later a mission) around the age of 16 or 17. When he turned 18 he moved to a ski resort and self-medicated with drugs and alcohol, and about ten years later when he and I got together he seemed to have it all together. A few years into marriage the emotional abuse started, but from day one we lived two separate lives, he did nearly everything with his friends while doing virtually nothing with the kids as they grew up. He stayed out all night many times, even when my son was two weeks old! I knew he liked drinking beer with the guys so I didn’t question it and I was running a business with him or living my life for my kids. He verbally abused me and the kids when he drank (every so often) and he emotionally neglected us.

Why would I allow this? I can’t tell you, it’s crazy. It’s like I was in a trance this entire time. I just woke up one day and after a couple months of me complaining about his personality being different when he drank, his lack of help with our two kids (both with ASD’s, and my being angry about pics of cute girls in skimpy dresses and bikinis (internet pics) on his phone, him never wearing a wedding ring and always going to the pub without me (plus rarely being intimate with me), I woke up. I thought the fact I actually believed this man was incapable of lying means I’ve got problems! He had previously told me he doesn’t believe that lies by omission are true lies, and admitted to not telling me things to keep the peace at times. I finally said it’s the alcohol or us, and he chose alcohol; although he keeps reminding us how we made the choice to leave.

All the nights he spent out, sleeping over at people’s houses after parties where women were crashing also, camping with his buddy and his wife and her girlfriends and never inviting me; it seems to be the same pattern as when he was young: escape from the wife (like Mom), lie to protect himself, to protect others, out of fear of losing his family possibly. I’m separated from him because I now realize my codependency and the way he used my mistakes to keep me down, and how he still blames everything wrong in his life on me, and his narcissistic tendencies to talk over me, not listen, turn stories around on me, make me question reality and scapegoat me. Does any of this sound familiar?

I feel my husband is a narcissist who won’t deal with his childhood, who doesn’t believe in the Mormon church but will defend it if I said anything bad about it, who will deny that his father was verbally and emotionally abusive, and who cares more about how his parents see him than the way we see him. He has more respect for them than he does for us.

Does any of this sound familiar? I am just trying to decide if it’s even worth trying to get him to marital counseling because he does not admit to any wrongdoing whatsoever. Im not asking anyone to answer whether counseling is the answer, just wanting to know how likely it is that growing up in this oppressive religion would lead to narcissistic behavior and/or pathological lying.

Whether it's alcohol and/or substance abuse, cheating on his marriage/you, preferring the company of party buds to his family, or all of the above, you do not describe a marriage or husband. You describe barely a roomate, and something more akin to a rebellious teenage son. Move on. If he ever decides to grow up, maybe you'll be free, maybe you will have found a real life parter. His behavior is not your choice nor responsibility.

It's been said many times on this board that Mormonism may not necessarily create personality disorders, but certainly feeds into them. You've got an adult child on your hands, and th eonly thing you can control about that is your level of participation.

If you take religion away as an excuse, how could you justify his behavior? It's not loving, and that's the bottom line. Love is demonstrated by acts of giving, not mere words. Does he love you, and if not, how could therapy fix that?

I completely agree with Outside. I see nothing in your marriage that is worth salvaging. Your husband was not ready to be married and be a dad, and he may not be ready by age 40 or later. He is your basic Peter Pan. And he's mean, to boot. Nothing about this is your fault.

I wouldn't worry about how Mormonism contributed to his problems. Yes, it probably didn't help. But his problems are much bigger than Mormonism.

From what you are writing, he likely picked up his verbally abusive behavior from his dad. His dad was his model for how to be a man and how to treat his wife. Some kids look at their abusive parents and decide that they will take a different path. But it sounds like your husband does not have this degree of self-reflection or capacity for growth.

I would cut yourself loose from him. You deserve better and your kids deserve better.

All good advice with which I agree. Prepare best you can to get what you deserve from a divorce and then end it fast and hard.

However, for the future, and if you are ever tempted to marry a man with any Mormon background again, please beware the strange beast known as the “jack-mormon.” No more confused, morally foggy, likely to be deceptive, with absolutely no evidence of remorse or pangs of conscience, human exists, except, possibly the completely aware of the facts, but still vigilantly or more likely hyper-viligantly, putting on the active facade, mormon.

Hope I haven’t offfended too many by this comment, but that’s my experience.

All I can really say is that there is certainly more than one side to every story.

I don't know if he shared more of the story that I somehow missed, but I was operating under the assumption that he was about 23 years old and that the two of you were practically newlyweds.

I hate to be cold-blooded, but if I were you, I would find a pit bull attorney and take him to the cleaners once his income as an MD starts to come in. I'm assuming what he said about medical school was true. If not, it wouldn't be the first time someone lied about it. Mark David Hacking comes to mind.

Regardless, the LDS church is the very least of your and his troubles.

The behaviour you are describing from your husband sounds like the behaviour my husband exhibited with his first marriage. Not wearing his wedding ring, going out with 'the lads' and drinking all night long - often winding up in other towns. He treated her deplorably and he was still very childish (immature) when we met.

This is a terrible situation in which to raise children - they are being taught that women are not to be respected and men are allowed (assumed) to treat others with contempt and be an arse when drinking.

The behaviour you describe is nothing to do with being raised mormon, per se, as my husband is a nevermo but was raised by a religious family. Your husband has no self respect therefore he can never respect anyone until he learns what respect is. You also need to respect yourself more - why have you tolerated this behaviour up until now? Why have you made excuses for him and in the process allowed yourself to be demeaned in front of your children, by their father?

I'm sorry that I bring no answers, I only bring you questions. The important thing now is that you appear to be ready to ask yourself these questions, and more. Good luck finding your answers and being brave enough to act on them.

I wouldn't stay with this person who seems destructive of you and your children. One sided relationships don't work out well. Marriage can be a challenge when both people involved are trying, but I don't see this in what you've written.

I think you and your children deserve better.

Little if any of this sounds like mormon caused dysfunctional behavior to me.

I do agree with you all, sadly. I think he did learn it from his father, and he does have Peter Pan syndrome. I grew up with some kind of attachment issue where I clung to him when I left home and couldn’t let go. I think so much of it came on so gradually, and I threw myself into starting businesses and traveling (with him). He wasn’t always gone drinking and yelling, but the times he was is enough and there is no excuse. I am no angel, but I do believe I react to how he treated me.

Thanks for the advice, I have taken it. Unfortunately I broke three bones in my ankle and so the kids are going to need to help me a lot.

I'm sorry about your ankle. I had a tib/fib/ankle break, so I know it's painful. Hang in there. It will get better, but time is your friend. I grew to love PT during my recovery.

It sounds to me like your husband has more of a borderline personality disorder than being narcissistic. Either way, these types of personality disorders do not (typically) have a high success rate (especially narcissists) if you're trying to "rehab" them.

You pretty much described my own marriage. My ex was an expert liar, and could talk and act his way through any lie he chose to tell. He actually enjoyed lying. He liked the skulking around, and the initial conquests, more than the actual sex, in his multiple affairs. They weren't really "affairs," but just physical conquests. It was not about love. It had nothing to do with me or our children. It had nothing to do with Mormonism, either. He was Narcissistic, through and through. His best friend and former roommate told me (too late) that my ex had a piece missing from his soul. This innocent-looking, baby-faced, boyish BYU grad convinced me that he was a virgin, like I was, when we got married. A week later, on our honeymoon, he cheated with an old girlfriend of his. He was having an affair with his secretary and another girl in his building, when I was pregnant with our first child. I did not know any of thus, until 12 years later, after we were divorced.

I am 99% sure your husband is cheating on you. Please, today, right now, go to a drug store and buy condoms. Make up an excuse that you have an "infection" of some kind, that might be spread to him. I caught a STD from my ex, and was very confused about how I got it, since I was 100% faithful.

My husband left me when he did, because a woman threatened to tell me everything, and he knew that I would divorce him. He was well prepared, and he hid all his assets, including the profits from some apartments he and I had owned together. He refused to pay alimony or child support. I got an attorney and was granted only a small amount of child support, which he didn't pay. It became too expensive for me to go after him for such a small amount of money. My ex abandoned us completely, and, to this day, we have no contact, except for a Christmas card (why?)

At first, I accepted the blame from him and from the men in the Mormon church: If a husband has affairs, Mormons believe that it's the wife's fault. I had to go to therapy, to keep my self-esteem at a level where my career wouldn't suffer. The "blame is not with you, dear SkierB!

For my own sake, and for the sake of my children, I needed to know the real facts about what happened. I did research. Some of my husband's women had been "friends" of mine. Some of the women's husbands were friends of my husband. I knew a lot of people. My husband's bishopric brother had affairs also, and those women and two of his ex-wives willingly told me about how the brother would set up my husband with women. It was beyond my imagination that any man would behave like my husband did!

You need to solve your problem. Your problem is your husband. While you are doing this work, concentrate on your children and your your own education and career. (That part of my life, I did right, and my children and I are in great shape, with no contact from that sleaze.

After protecting your health, gain control of your assets, and squirrel away as much cash as you possible can, to pay for a good divorce attorney. Do not let your husband know you are planning on divorcing him. An attorney can advise you on exactly what you need to do to protect yourself and your children. Don't be caught unprepared, like I was. Your children come first.

You need to face the TRUTH! Some of these posters have given you very good advice. Your husband will never change, will never grow up, will never accept responsibility, will never tell you the truth.

When you are ready, hire a detective. If you can't afford one, Follow your husband, yourself. Catch him at his lies. Contact some suspicious people, from his past, that would have nothing to lose by telling you the truth. Most people, you can take them at their word--especially when 30 people tell you the same thing!

A sweet RS lady friend of mine suspected her husband, and actually climbed up the balcony railings to their second-story condo in Park City, and took pictures through the bedroom window! My first clue was that my ex dropped off my son and his friend at the movies, and then, on the other side of the parking lot, let a strange woman get into his car. He told my son to tell me that Daddy was at the movies with them the whole time. Your own children might know things that they are afraid to tell you. My son didn't tell me this until after the divorce.

You have a hard road ahead, but you have your own courage and The Truth on your side. The Truth always comes out. I hope you will be better prepared than I was.

Check out al-anon. It could help you a lot.

Get out before he beats you half to death. Trust me on this.