I'm married to an ultra-TBM. I've been very quiet about my doubts up to this point. She knows I'm struggling but has been quiet about it because I've continued to attend church and go through the motions.

I've reached a point, however, where I'm tired of pretending and wasting time doing things I really don't want to do. When I make a move to change the status quo, she won't be quiet about it. I'm confident it will include anger and yelling as that is her usual mode when she's frustrated with me. Because I hate it when she does that, I've delayed.

In some ways I've thought that the only way to escape the church is to escape my marriage, so many of the options have included some kind of separation from my wife. But giving it more thought, I've decided that this shouldn't be necessary (maybe wishful thinking).

My ultra-uber-TBM mother-in-law (creepy lady) is visiting until this next Monday, but after she leaves on Tuesday I'm planning on telling my wife the following:

1. I'm no longer going to attend church
2. I'm not going to be paying tithing
3. I'm not planning on leaving or acting differently toward her as my wife because I love her
4. If she can respect my choices and decisions then I think we can still have a good relationship going forward
5. If she can't respect my choices and decisions then she needs to make a decision about what she plans to do (but I'm not leaving).

I expect that she'll be angry about 1 and 2, will be relieved by 3 and ultimately go down the path of 4. She's expressed misgivings about her ability to live independently so I think she'll do this grudgingly.

For those who have been down this path in the past, do you have any advice? Should I change anything up? What am I not seeing?

If you don't have any kids, I'd get out of that marriage and not look back.

I have 5 kids....3 still in HS...another 3 years or so.

Well, they might be old enough not to suffer too much if you and your wife were to divorce. If you can stick it out for a few more years and retain your sanity, that's another option. I hope it goes well when you talk to you wife. After you do that, you'll probably have a better idea about if you want to walk or not. Good luck!

I started small. Naps on the foyer couch during Sunday school and priesthood, "forgetting" to do my calling...

Now, we all nap at home.

Humberto's advice is good,take it slow. Also important is be especially patient and kind during transition away and ultimately out, I didn't always do it this way and it was a very stormy time. I moved out and rented a house for a year. We worked through our differences and are still together and doing relatively well but still have an occasional heated discussion over the church.

I call it the Bruce Lee method. You have to flow like water against the wall. It seems like the wall has the advantage, but you find a way to take advantage of small cracks, and the water eventually wins.

But if you don't have the time for patience, well you can Tsunami the shit out of that wall, too.

I disagree on point 3. You should become even more loving, supportive, and family oriented than you've been in the past. She may accuse you of breaking the deal and changing - okay change for the better. Court her again. Send flowers, have a nice meal and a clean house waiting when she drags in after church, support her non-church interests, plan fun dates and family activities, be super involved with the kids......use your imagination. Hopefully, someday she will look around at her TBM friends with TBM husbands who are never home because of church commitments and realize she has it pretty good.

Try to get her to commit to keeping the discussions between the two of you. Ask her not to involve her family and/or the bishop. You will be cast as the evil wicked other who needs to be fixed or dumped.

Excellent advice. Generally I try to be a very conscientious husband. I need to be even more conscientious.

.....which "man" conveyor belt are you from, again ?

The model has been discontinued

I have known some people who have eased out - almost to the point that their spouse barely noticed. I only recommend this if you are 100% committed to your wife and want to do everything in your power to save your marriage. If not, then just cut and run. One friend started out by only attending sacrament with his wife, then going home (he also told the bishop he would not be participating in any church callings). This continued until he got tired of it, then started to go to church every other week...then down to once a month, etc, etc, etc.

I like your style of putting it on your wife, but honestly man...if you think that she is only staying you with you grudgingly because she can't hack it on her own, is that a life you want? I am ABSOLUTELY NOT trying to tell you to get divorced, but if you are just trying to cling to a marriage that is built on your church membership and her inability to support herself, I would say you don't have to tread so lightly. You also have to consider that if she is ulta TBM (and you say her family is as well), then the reactivation efforts will probably be miserable.

If they've been married a long time, and he's the primary breadwinner there is also financial considerations.

Some people do stay married for convenience. To divorce would cost both more in terms of what they'd give up for what they would get in return.

If they still love each other, and both are willing to compromise, why not make it work?

That way it could be a win-win for both spouses.

Honestly if hubby were to divorce wife and she can't support herself - legally she'd be entitled to alimony, child support, and a good chunk of his retirement including Social Security.

I should clarify: I truly want the OP and his wife to make it work. My post made me seem like I am rooting for his marriage to end, but I am not. I've just seen so many people on here miserable because their marriage turn cold when they left the church and their TBM spouse took it out on them. That said, I like what an earlier poster said about courting his wife again. This could be a good opportunity to open her eyes and start questioning. I really hope that OP can show his wife that he is all in and everything works out ok...but if she starts turning cold toward him, I hope he stands his ground and tells the church to pound sand.

No...I understood your meaning. I appreciate a realistic perspective. I'm not going to be bullied anymore. I've had enough of it.

It's been 24 years, so everything you said is right on.

I don't think it does either of us any good to separate if we can somehow reconcile my lack of belief with her belief (I'm doubtful)

This will be new territory for the both of us.

Your plan isn't bad.
You could drag this out, doing less and less in Mormonism and refusing to pay tithes, for the next three years until the last kid is eighteen.

After that, assets get split down the middle.
Encourage her to get a job.

But, hopefully, she'll give your opinions some value and a divorce won't be necessary.

As someone who spent way too much time in an unhappy marriage because I doubted my ability to live independently, I'd say go a little further than just giving her no choice but to make her feel trapped. My ex loved knowing that I was afraid I couldn't make it on my own. I had absolutely no support from him in going back to school or getting training in anything that would get me a good job. When we were married students at BYU and I would bring up that I should also be finishing my degree while we could get good financial aid, he'd actually say, "If you get your degree you'll leave." And the Molly Mormon me at that time couldn't even think, "you're damn right and that's what I'm doing." I just felt trapped.

Sounds like you care about her but realize that you care about your own happiness also. I know that for many of us, once we realize the mormon idea of afterlife is a joke made up by some charlatan who couldn't keep his pecker in his pants, we don't know what to believe or if we believe anything about the afterlife.

Contrary to what we thought as mormons--that this life would feel meaningless if we didn't "know" what comes after, it's usually the opposite. This life becomes MORE meaningful. Eternal life becomes not what we take with us, but what we leave behind that goes on. We realize all we "know" is what we have right here. We want to help others, soak up knowledge, improve good relationships and get out of ones that tear us down. We want to do meaningful things. So it makes it hard to want to stay in an unhappy relationship when we know our time is so precious.

So yes, your points of discussion are right on. But when it comes to #5, don't make it a threat (i.e., "so what do you plan on doing on your own?") If that is the choice that she feels will make her the happiest, what about "I know you have given up career building time to be a wife and mother and a good one. I'd like to figure out what I can do to help you feel prepared to live independently. I will fulfill my financial obligations, but our living separately will strain us both, so I'd like us to explore avenues that can give you some empowerment," or something of the sort.

You know what she really wants--for things to stay the way they were when you were a believer. It may take a lot of reiteration to get her to accept that that option is no longer viable. She will do one of two things if accepting your faith transition is not something she can do. She will do nothing, hoping you won't really make a move, or she will accept the help. I would have loved to have been given an option to have some help getting on my own. And if she opts to do nothing, at least you know you gave her a chance. My hope is that you can find common ground and stay together and both be happy. But I don't wish for either of you to have to go on being unhappy and wishing things were different.

Thank you for sharing your experience. Should it go down that path, I will incorporate this "helping" element and ensure that there is no threatening tone. I really don't want to hurt her because I do love her.

I've suggested in the past that she go back to school for personal development, but she doesn't like school so I'm not sure she'll take me up on it, but presented with another reality maybe she'll take the offer more seriously.

How I hope it works out:
#1,#2,#3

How it will probably work out:
#1,#2,#3.#4. Ultimately #5

From personal experience, what I think will happen:
If you have ultra TBM in laws and TBM wife, you better plan on leaving in a small apartment with little or no money.

My advice:
Wait till kids are out of High school. This is a financial move, Also, I suspect your wife already has thought about this and has her own ideas.

Whatever else happens, if she reacts in the worst possible way, DO NOT move out of the house. Period.

If she tries to intimidate you by slinging the "D" word around, then she gets to move.

What are the implications of moving out? I don't plan to but I'd like to understand the consequences.

It may hurt your case if you do move out.

http://info.legalzoom.com/leaving-matrimonial-home-before-divorce-25251.html

https://www.huffingtonpost.com/joseph-e-cordell/moving-out-after-divorce_b_5510895.html

Of course, an attorney can give you specific, targeted advice. This is just to start.

Moving out could be construed as abandonment, especially when it comes to custody of your teenagers and who, if anyone, gets to retain the home. Consult a divorce lawyer before you move out.

I see a lot of advice about how you should ditch your marriage (I'm sorry to see people feel so flippantly about such an important relationship and commitment), but I'm glad to see you love your wife and are committed to her. I think it's very hard for anyone to feel at ease in leaving Mormonism, so give your wife some grace if she isn't where you are. Maybe what you need to do first is express your love and commitment to her and your children. You are entitled to maintain your own beliefs despite what she ultimately decides, but decide that whether you agree or disagree, you'll be committed to loving one another. Share with her your misgivings and tell her that you'd like to explore that more before you can decide what is truth or not. She may even become open to explore this with you. I've seen many ex-Mormons talk about how they came out of Mormonism because in their determination to prove their spouse wrong, they discovered that Mormonism had too many flaws for them to continue to believe it. You've expressed doubts, but follow that up with seeking answers. I'm a Bible-believing Christian, and Jesus said that if we seek Him with our whole hearts, we will find Him. The Jesus of the Bible isn't the Jesus of Mormonism—you'll find a stark difference. I hope you and your family can come into an awesome place of truth and hope, and I tell you from personal experience that I've found that and so much more in Jesus (from the NKJV Bible). If you want to see what Christians believe and compare that with the path you've been down, I want to share some resources that have been marvelous in my own seeking and finding answers that really work. Please see www.awmi.net for Andrew Wommack's free teaching on a variety of topics. On his audio page, you can see a free archive of almost every teaching he has ever done. Don't just anticipate the worst in this thing. Your wife needs time to deal with where your at. I'm sure it will be a blow. She will be thinking about what her family, friends, and church will think. It's hard, so love her through it. Jesus said that above all, we should walk in love and He will give us the power to do it. As a Christian, I find praying for people that I'm having trouble with in my relationship with them can change them and me in ways that I really couldn't have made happen myself or had the wisdom to make the change happen. Know that God (of the Bible) loves you and your wife and children. He's always there and will always help you find your way to Him. He's done it for me countless times. Wishing you and your family the very best.

Good luck - I think the single most important piece of advice is to put your foot down and insist that sorting this out is between the two of you, and possibly a non-mormon counselor. No in-laws, no bishop, no kids.

Period.

Thanks all for your guidance. I have a few more days to think about it and will definitely report back on the outcome.

Many regards.

Topping

You are focused on the Mormonism, but it sounds like the problems in your marriage run a whole lot deeper.

Your wife uses anger and yelling to control you. It apparently works, because it is the reason that you give for not addressing the Mormonism. But this is abuse. It is abuse that is used to control you. You do not deserve to be abused, and she has no right to abuse you. Not all abuse leaves cuts and bruises.

You mentioned that leaving Mormonism may be your way out if this marriage. That sounds like you are hoping to find some excuse to get out. You don't need an excuse to get out. If you don't want to be married, that is plenty good enough reason to divorce.

I will advise the opposite of others when it comes to wooing your wife during this time. I would advise putting you foot down on an end to the abusive behavior. You have the right to be a Mormon or not be a Mormon, but you also have the right not be abused or accept abuse.

Just because she may decide that she wants to option number 4, I would insist on an end to the abusive behavior along with acceptance of your decision about how you plan to live religiously.

The only way to end the abuse it to no longer tolerate it. That may mean putting your foot down on unacceptable behavior or ending the marriage.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 01/10/2018 07:26PM by nevermojohn.

I was in a very similar situation when I left the church. I would suggest that you try to build a world together without mormonism. The mormon church is a cult and like most cults it tries to control every aspect of your life. The more you give the more it demands. Try to connect with friends and couples outside of mormonism. Find fun things to do on sundays outside of church, hopefully activities your wife would enjoy...like a trip somewhere cool for example. If your sphere-of-influence includes lots of mormons and mormon activities then your desire to help your wife transition out of the church will be much harder. See if you can encourage her to seek friends that are not mormons. It is important that the people you let into your life are good non-mormons.

Be a bit more critical about your mormon friends. Would you have anything in common with them if it were not for the church? Does the church help them to become better people?

I would also avoid ultimatums. Forcing your wife to choose puts pressure on her to go with the church. She will hate you for it. Just gently let her know that you do not want to go to church. You don't want to pay tithing, and you don't want to support church activities. Since you are used to paying tithing anyway, why not funnel that money into experiences that you and your wife would love. Work together to plan out what you all want to do. Go see that show you always wanted to see and take that trip to Disneyland as a family. If you saved up your tithing and spent it on fun stuff for your family that may go a lot further than simply stopping to pay tithing. Your wife may suspect you want the money for yourself and it would build resentment.

Above all let your wife know that you love her and you clearly want to stay with her. You have no intention or desire to leave her simply because you want to stop going to church.

Ask for people who have lost their faith, had a believing spouse, worked through it and ultimately spouse left too.

Divorce may be be the end result but I feel it's better to go slow, "speak softly". Go away for a weekend. Buy roses. Fix a nice meal, go to church for special occasions only. Make sure she knows she comes first - before church, inlaws, etc.

Many folks here have been in your situation and not all have ended happily but many have. Make your marriage the priority but make it clear, you are no longer paying.

And maybe listen here:

http://www.mormonstories.org/182-185-navigating-a-marriage-when-one-loses-their-lds-testimony/



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 01/10/2018 07:54PM by auntsukey.

Ok. I did it. It was interesting how it came about. Not as I expected.

She asked me if I wanted to watch the news conference related to the new first presidency today. I told her “No”. She said, “So you just don’t care about the Church anymore do you?” I said, “No I just don’t believe it anymore.”

We then talked for about two hours about my doubts and the logical problems I have with the Church and with religion in general. For the most part it was a good conversation. It didn’t get heated, though she cried a little.

She hit me with scriptures and doctrine more than I’ve ever heard her do before. She indicated that my doubts and thoughts were coming from “the adversary” and that I needed to seek personal revelation to know. I asked her “Why should I when the burden of proof doesn’t lie with me, but rather with those who make the claims?”

I found that the only thing that caused her to stop and think was a continual reminder that all the scriptures, doctrine and expectations she was repeating were produced by men at some point in time. She seemed to have a hard time accepting that the scriptures were the product of men for some reason, almost like she’d never considered that there might be an element of desire to control on the part of these men.

For example...I said...”Moses is the purported author of the first books of the Old Testament.” She said, “But Moses talked to God face to face.” I said “No...he said he talked to God. There’s a difference.” Same with Joseph Smith and all the others.

We came to an agreement that it all came down to a willingness to suspend disbelief and take the word of guys because they “said so”. She said she was, I said I wasn’t anymore.

She also hit me with “this isn’t what I signed up for when I married you. I need a priesthood holder...”. I expected this as well and reminded her how young and stupid we were when we got married (she was 19 and I was 22 not even a year after my mission). I admitted that now that I look back on it, I didn’t know what I was doing and neither did she, beyond it being what we were “supposed to do because some guy said so.” Again this caused her to pause a little.

Ultimately I told her I loved her (completely separate from the Church and temple covenants, etc.) and I hoped she could accept and love me for who I am regardless of whether I believe or not. I told her I believed we could continue to have a good (maybe even better) relationship going forward.

To wrap up my report....I’m very satisfied with the outcome. I feel relieved of a burden. I know there will be rough times ahead as I begin to act on my lack of belief but she knows where I’m coming from and won’t be surprised when I reiterate it (which I know I will have to do.). We had a good rest of the day together and I can only hope it continues.

Thanks again all for your support and guidance.

It sounds like your conversation went about as well as you could expect. I would support her right to believe and practice her religion as she wishes, but you should also expect respect for your right to change your mind.

No, it's not what she signed up for, but that's life. Life can hold a lot of surprises and a lot of twists and turns. None of us sign up for job loss, illness, problems with children or family members, natural disasters, threats to our security, etc. We are all adults who are expected to cope with any number of challenges. I would remind her of this if she keeps bringing it up.

I would keep bringing it back to your marriage. If she loves you and is committed to you, then you both can make it work. If her primary allegiance is to the church, then the battle is likely lost.

If things go south, do not sleep on the sofa or move out. You are not the one who is unhappy. If she is that level of unhappy, tell her she is free to walk out the door. It's your home, too!

Thanks summer

Of course only time will tell. I not sure how things will be going forward. I will love her the best I can and see whether she can adapt to the changes I’m making. Right now I’m kind of 70-30 on whether she can (70% unlikely).

Might I suggest the following:

Since 1/2 the marital assets are your wife's, do not object to
her paying tithing on her half. Respecting her beliefs (not that
you think they're true or even defensible) is a big part of
loving your wife. If you show respect to her over her beliefs,
then you will be on much better footing to ask for respect for
yours.

Also, don't fight with the mother-in-law. Be yourself, and if
she doesn't like it, she doesn't have to. But you don't have to
dance to her tune, or even justify your behavior or beliefs to
her.

If you wife wants to discuss your beliefs, or even argue (VERY
different from quarrel) about them, then, by all means,
respectfully discuss and engage. But you owe no explanations to
the mother-in-law.

I'm glad it went reasonably well, and she was not abusive as you initially reported. Abuse should not be tolerated, as Nevermojohn explained. Not sure why so many here overlook that and tell you to try to be extra nice to her.

You can spend a lot of time arguing over scripture and history and church teachings, but that is not what this is all about. Church teachings were never meant to be true, but people need to have some rituals or beliefs to gather a group around. Doesn't really matter what they are, or whether they make sense.

People are herd animals, and cling to groups for safety and security and survival.

The first allegiance of many spouses is to the larger group. That is their priority, as there are more resources and protection there. Which is why many never question government programs that hand out the goods. So your wife's first allegiance is to the church, and then her family, and then to you.

Which is why she doesn't want you questioning the church's teachings. That threatens her larger safety net.

Many of us thought that marriage meant putting spouse first in our lives, but it actually just added another source of resources, but not the highest priority. Not the primary loyalty.

Which is why your wife will probably be talking about your "problem" with her mom behind your back.

So forget all the church crap. You need to have a discussion about marriage in general, and whether it means anything. Like does it mean that you are each the primary loyalty to each other, or not.

Is she going to be running to mommy and to the bishop or whoever - are they her primary 'family'? Were you never number one? Was she just using you for money, or for boosting her status in the church (priesthood holder), and as soon as you question her true love, the church, she runs back to them?

In other words, when she took wedding vows, did she have her fingers crossed behind her back, laughing inside at you, the fool, who thought she was actually committing to you?

Thanks Free Man.

I think you’re absolutely right and it’s something that I will be watching very carefully for as we move ahead. Can our relationship be a priority higher than church or other considerations. Not sure yet. Now that I’ve come to this point I’d love for the conversation to just be about our marriage, but for her (and for me) the Church is so intertwined with it all that’s it’s very hard to separate. For a while, as I said, I thought that in order to escape the Church I’d have to escape my marriage. It’s pretty sick how invasive it is, but in the context of the TBM worldview it makes perfect sense as part of the grand plan.

Yesterday I think she was very much in shock about my level of disbelief and was really trying to understand what I was saying and thinking. I’m pretty sure that will wear off and there will be some anger expressed. We’ll see how far that goes, but I’ll continue to reiterate to her that if it’s that intolerable for her I will assist her in making the transition out of the marriage (per other advice I’ve received).

I would go with numbers 1 and 3 and save the rest for follow up conversations. Let her digest the news and hopefully can have additional conversations. If you approach it as you have laid it out above, I fear it may come across more confrontational than your intention. :)

I see it is done already. Glad it seemed to go relatively well!