EDIT Sorry, I felt like I needed to remove it.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 01/05/2018 04:55PM by Cold-Dodger.

I can relate. As can nearly everybody who frequents this site. My father used to punctuate his point of view with the back of his hand. And yes, every family gathering was a church meeting. He just didn't see the incongruity.

That was a very well thought out and well written accounting!

I wonder if those who escape do so because they are sufficiently 'selfish' to grant themselves the power to disappoint those whom society opines ought not to be disappointed?

I'd just like to comment that you are not *the source* of grief for your family; their ongoing choice to be enmeshed in a very sick, dysfunctional religion is the source of their pain.

The more time and distance from that cult, the more you heal.

I'm sorry about your mom, who sounds like a master manipulator. I guess she figured out that her kitchen-floor tactics were unsuccessful, so she's going with numbers, this time. Again, it sounds like your dad just gives in to whatever she wants. I may be recalling incorrectly, but I thought he once blamed you for her "pain," which is not what I would call an emotional shutdown, but cow-towing to her ever-present need to be in control. Now she's conciliatory, and he falls right in line. His claim to "shut down" sounds like her re-write of actual history, to me.

It's never been about you, CD. One of your primary functions in the family system was to serve as a mirror for your mother, who, without the definitions loaded onto her by the indoctrination, has little to no identity of her own. As her firstborn, you were groomed into a very shiny mirror, indeed.

Your integrity has been your salvation, and a lonely, painful one at that. It seems you're finding peace in taking control of your own path. They can call it "dark" if they want, but that's just how it looks from their cave.

Wishing you well.

Cold-Dodger,
My hat is off to you...a fantastic display of self-control and integrity on your part. Wow...
Not sure if I could have sat there and taken their attempts at shaming you and chief into compliance with their "religion."

All the best, my friend. You are a beacon of light for living your life with truth and integrity in all things.

Sincerely,
-edz

Yes, I enjoyed your story, Cold-Dodger! Your family has so many similarities to my own TBM family, and many of my relatives' families, that it could almost be defined as "universal" among Mormons.

You were right in feeling that this was an intervention. It was not a "family council" at all. Mormons love to say that things are something they are not.

The replies here are excellent! I'm sure these posters speak from experience.

You don't need to feel so responsible for your mother's happiness. IMO, she is a control freak, and very manipulative. My TBM mother would resort to histrionics, like crying, or curling up into a ball (but never on the floor!), or slapping us, or damning us all to Hell, or giving all of us children the "silent treatment", and even going to stay at my aunt's house for a few days. All of these manipulative control tactics worked, temporarily, on the surface, until we became adults.

Your mother says she wants to "feel close" to you again. I interpret this to mean that she wants to control you again. She wants you to be her obedient little Mormon child, again. As a mother, I long for that "closeness", too, but I understand that my children are autonomous, happy adults, and have their own households, and are simply too busy and distracted to have Mommy at the center of their world. It's all part of children growing up, and parents loving them for the unique adults they have become. Mormonism keeps it victims in a child-like state, and your mother has never fully grown up, herself. Mormons have trouble with the concept of freedom.

This whole intervention was all one-sided. Chief knew what he was doing, by remaining silent. You didn't have a chance to say much, either. This, again, is very typical of Mormons and Mormon conversations. They are eager to tell their side, preach, and bear their testimonies--but they never are interested in listening to anyone else's point of view or experiences.

The gossip behind you back, the ganging up on you and Chief (Mormons always work in groups) your brother's threat to sic the missionaries on you, the accusations of you being "dark"--many of these things are abusive. You aren't required to accept abuse. Yet--YOU and Chief are the ones walking on eggshells around their craziness.

I can understand why you avoid these people. I'm sad for the way Mormonism can divide families.

The bottom line is that Mormons don't believe in unconditional love. Many cultures describe Motherly-love as unconditional. This is the type of love I feel for my children, and it keeps my motives pure, it makes me put my children first, and it is constant and unshakeable. Many of us on RFM, who were raised my Mormon parents, in a cult-dominated family, were not--are not-- loved.

Out of curiosity, I wonder how your family would behave on your turf, at your house.

"There is still God in my mother's house." It's your mother's house. By "God", she means the MorGod of the Mormon cult. Maybe there's Love in your house. Or, at least, acceptance. Chief would feel more welcome and at east there. Include the children, and invite some of YOUR people, friends and neighbors, and have it a party. Your parents and your brothers would be in the minority. The conversation would take on a variety of subjects. There would be laughter.

Going out for ice cream was a good idea. Out in public--that's neutral territory.

The only way I can get along with Mormons is to keep the conversation light and positive. Play more, talk less.

Mormons want to "feel close" and be "intimate" with each other. IMO, this is crossing the precious boundaries of your private life and private thoughts. If you do break down and tell Mormons something that is personal to you, they immediately break the confidence. They tell others. They judge. They use the information against you. I had nothing to hide, but I was always reserved and introverted around the aggressive, prying, dominating Mormons.

Hi, Cold-Dodger! Always good to see you here. I think your family council was spurred by the impending moves of both yourself and Chief. Your mom doesn't want to lose you both
entirely. I also think that you handled yourself well. Your family really doesn't need to understand *why* you left the church, just that your choice to leave must be respected.

I wouldn't put up with any testimony bearing. I also wouldn't put up with any disrespect such as a sibling saying that they see a darkness in you. I would have something prepared to say in mind, such as, "You may think that if you wish but you may not say that to my face. It is rude and disrespectful." Or a favorite of one of our board members (cl2?) "See, that is why people don't like Mormons."

If a family event is not specifically Mormon in nature, i.e. a generic Christmas carol concert, I would consider going. Just pass on anything Mormon-sponsored if you wish.

Your family is going to have to learn to communicate with you both in ways that do not involve a Mormon construct. This will be a challenge for them, so bear with them as long as they seem to be working at it. But don't be afraid to enforce boundaries.

Where are you headed to? This sounds like an exciting time for you!

Utah, of all places.

What's taking you there?

Work

Good! You are at an age when paying attention to your work is what you *should* be doing. Poverty gets old after a while. Best of luck, and share more details in the future if you feel comfortable doing so.

For CD, I don't know how others deal with this attitude. I was lucky because my parents listened to me. There were many reasons that they did, but they never loved their children any different because they weren't mormon, given that most of them left the church younger than I did. I was 38 or so when I went inactive.

My dad was never TBM. Mormonism wasn't so great to my mother. I know they always hoped that their kids would be mormon, but it wasn't a constant discussion and we never had a family council EVER over anything. When I hear those things, it makes me cringe.

I'm sorry they put you and your brother through this. It will be good for you and your brother to get away from your family even if you come to Utah. Find the exmormon groups that meet up so you can find a support group.

It's virtually impossible relating to family members when they are the ones endowed with the truth absolute, and you to them are the apostate.

There is no rhyme or reason with those communications other than what happened between you and your family last night.

It isn't as though you're on any kind of a level playing field.

They're blinded by Mormon dogma that they can't see past that into your heart, soul and mind. Or that of your brother. And accept both of you where you're at.

Your parents love you very much, that much is evident. They're afraid of losing you to the darkness of not being LDS. Because that's how brainwashed they are, not because they have the truth absolute.

When they can fully accept you where you're at, and be able to say "I'm okay, you're okay," then you'll know they are healed from what ails them.

Why are you moving to Utah at this time? A job? Are you going back to school? Or something else?

Best wishes to you on your journey north.

The cat is out of the bag! Well done! No tears no yelling stayed calm during a very difficult time! Wow you did great.

Cold-Dodger, thank you so much for sharing. I can definitely relate to your feelings, particularly about the pent-up rage every time I spend time with my Mormon family. Everyone is nice, but there is always an underlying tension there. I am happy your family at least talks to each other. My family just talks through passive-aggressive Facebook posts.

I am happy your gay brother has you.

Very similar to my family. That was an intense read for me bringing back many memories.

For me, after I came out as both apostate and gay, my family reacted nearly identical to yours. In the end, looking back, the Mormon families have three kingdoms. I have always been in the Terrestrial Kingdom of the family ever since. No outright rejection, mostly acceptance on a certain level as long as I navigate correctly. However, it is sort of like the "lukewarm" that the supposed Jesus said he would spit out. I sometimes wish I would have been shunned. Don't know if that would make sense to anyone.

My father gave me an honorary Celestial degree just before he died. I think he finally started to see me for me and stopped judging me against the church. Only took forty years.

My mother still lives in fear that someone will find out she has a gay son. Big joke. She pretends that I believe even though I have said straight out that I don't.

Thank you for sharing such an important story. Gives a lot of insight into Mormonism beyond the hubbub over Joseph, BoM, BoA and Polyandry.

All I can say is the Lukewarm turns out to be exactly what Jesus said it was, but I have a feeling that is not you. Best to you and Chief. Keep it hot and cold.

The most profound statement you made struck me like a thunderbolt: "I took control of my own soul". WOW...just WOW

That's what we all have done in rejecting mormonism. Thankyou!

C-D,

Not much to say to this, but I too was struck by "I took control of my own soul"

Take care of yourself. And it sounds like you are. :) Best of best to you and your gay brother as you move beyond Mormonism. Hopefully, there can be something of comfort around family, even if there is disagreement.

Sad that it is turning your brothers against you.

Besides all the good remarks above, I have great sympathy for what you are dealing with.

My suggestion is to get it fully out in the open about WHY you've left the Church. GIVE THEM THE CES LETTER. That will explain it for you. If they read it, they will understand.

The Best To You!

((((Cold dodger)))) Hugs and love to you and Chief! I just don't know how you sat through that bs "intervention" type of sucker punch. I like the way the family is so convinced that their way is the right and only way. (Typically mormon) What if you and chief called a meeting where y'all would tell these people how grieved you were that they stubbornly insisted on staying in tscc, wasting their time, breaking up the family, making that stupid as a big pile of steaming shit on a sidewalk decision. How are they right and you wrong. My advice to you and chief is to lace up your nikes and run like hell. The more you can get away from them, the sooner you can heal emotionally and get on with your life. Sounds like they thought they were magnanimous to kind of put up with you. Screw them. Religion or lack thereof is very personal. They are upset because they can no longer control you and have you be part of a Stepford family.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 01/05/2018 12:59PM by Aquarius123.

They staged an "intervention" to bring you back into the fold. If not now,they hope it will affect you at some later time.

This crap rarely works, especially not in Mormonism.

Thanks for putting all this down.

The experience says a lot more about them than it does about you (though I do admire your courage in sticking to your convictions).

If you really think about it, their efforts are not designed to help you at all, but rather to help themselves feel better within a pretty screwy context. Kinda selfish, actually.

BTW....I always hated "family conferences / councils". I'd cringe whenever my parents called one. And I cringe whenever my wife suggests I call one.

I wish you and chief the best.

I went through something similar to your family council nearly 40 years ago. I was young at the time, but it started with my TBM mom nagging about two older siblings to start attending church more frequently. It lead to both of them declaring that they no longer believed and refusing to attend church. From there, it got real nasty in short order with my mom getting in their faces then getting pushed by one of my siblings. Naturally, Dad got dragging into the fray. The siblings retreated to their rooms with my mom still yelling and doors being slammed. Things were thrown, pictures and paintings were knocked off the walls. I was very young and didn't really understand the fighting.

Family meals became awkward, but it was always my mother that instigated the feud with her endless passive aggression. She would always bring up church activities and that "So and so misses you at mutual." They would leave in silence with my mom ordering them to return.

It took about 10 years for my mom to realize that being close to her children was more important than trying to look like the perfect Mormon family sitting in the pew.

Mormons and their church are unable to answer the issues critics have raise, therefore they have taken the tack of "pluralism"-at least for the sake of appearances.

The truth is they will never stop. They will never stop trying to "bring you back" and they will never stop trying to influence our children and family members to join the Mormon Church.

It was really quite outrageous that you had to sit and listen to them bear their testimonies, but apparently even you were willing to put up with this behaviour. (I'm not trying to criticize, just point out that there are ways in which Mormonism still affects you that you may not be aware of). The fact they felt justified in confronting you and saying negative things the way they did is proof that haven't changed.

TBM inlaws have taken this tack to a point in the last few years and this is because they think it is ultimately the only way to still have influence over family members who have left or are nevermo. We are not fooled by it.

Be wise as a serpent, and gentle as a dove and never forget they are master manipulators.

Cold-Dodger, You get the Gold Medal, a huge one, for standing up for yourself and breaking through MormonCult indoctrination. Thank you for sharing this incident and also for sharing your sincere, honest feelings in your previous posts.

You are a hero and a survivor with a lot of courage and be proud of that. I am proud of you. A grandma and a mom, I hope with all my heart I have a TBM child or a grandchild with your drive and courage and ability to see the church for what it is and is not.

I am the piranha among the TBMs in my family, a flesh-eating apostate who has left the so-called "true church". How I am treated is best described by a poster on this thread who called it "lukewarm", which I detest.

One suggestion I have is for you to become familiar, very familiar, with the mind control SUBTLE influences used in Mormonism (and other places like marketing, politics, etc) to assert control in behavior, information, thought and emotion if you have not. And, if you have, I think it is very, very helpful to review these and keep them forefront in your mind so that you are aware and mindful of them and their power. This is something I do periodically because I believe these controls are very powerful.

BEST OF LUCK in Utah, and do keep posting.

Wow, that was a painful read. Change the family structure a bit, and I've been in that exact same meeting, twice. Plus I received letters every few years as kind of a booster shot.

My dad finally put his foot down with mom, and ran interference for me and the confrontations and letters stopped. He held that I was a good person and was allowed to run my own life. Amazing that that should be a controversial conclusion to come to, but in a cult, it is.

After my dad passed away, mom started up again, usually about once a year after some damn GC talk about how "we need to bring those who have strayed back into the fold." Blech.

I finally decided that the only way I was going to win that war was to outlive the other side, which is exactly what happened. Mom found out I had resigned shortly before her death. I think she just guessed based on comments I had made. I had done it years before. Anyway, in one last attempt at retaliation, she told the bishop that since I was no longer Mormon, I wouldn't be able to speak at her funeral, because that just wouldn't be right. I was asked to read the obituary (which I had also written). When the bishop announced that I would be reading the obit, he somewhat awkwardly added I would make remarks about my mother's life, or words to that effect. I'm not sure exactly what he said. I wasn't expecting it.

So, even the bishop recognized that her request that I not speak because I was not a member was a spectacularly unjust request, and ignored it. I suspect he changed his mind right there at the opening of the funeral.

After the burial, I have never been back to the cemetery. I get to live the rest of my life in peace. (Actually, even before then, most of my life was peaceful, except for the occasional mortar shell of guilt lobbed in from suburban Mormonia).

CD, thanks for sharing

CD, I enjoyed reading your story. Thanks for posting it.

Just an observation about mormons...they're so indoctrinated into the rigidity of mormonism that they have to call a "family council." I find that both amusing and sad.

When I want to talk with my family, I ask them if we can sit down and talk. I don't call a "family council." In fact, if you sit down and talk with your family all the time, you don't need to "call" anything. You already know what's going on.

:)