Was it though tithing or is it something that we'll never know!??

Or perhaps it was paid for with interest earned on tithing so that the brethren could semi-honestly say it was not paid for with tithing if asked, which they wouldn't answer anyway because they answer to no one.

You'll never know. The LDS church is more secretive about money than Switzerland banks.

Ha! The church could be laundering dirty money and taking a percentage just like the banks do for all we know. You only hide things when you have to hide things. The church is secret for a reason.

Since the church has zero transparency in its accounting to its own members, let alone the public, that is open to speculation.

It's doubtful it would have taken out any loans on the building of it. That it would have been backed by investors and shareholders in church owned enterprises; and tithes of church members. The investment firms who would back a business venture such as that would be Mormon owned/controlled & operated as well, no doubt. (Think Zion First National Bank, et al.)

When you look at the church as a corporation, run like a corporation, with CEO's running it not really 'men of God,' but businessmen; then perhaps you'd get a better handle how it pays for any business venture. The church as a corporation is self-generating revenue between tithes, investments, and that would include other church owned properties &/or businesses.

Consider the City Creek Mall property is wholly church owned. Yet the stores inside it are leasing their space to have their businesses out of it. The church makes a killing just off the prime real estate holding the location itself provides.

And too, the businesses operating there are quite possibly owned and operated by church members as well - so they get a cut of the profits.

If the stores in the mall pay LDS, Inc. a percentage lease, the Morg makes a profit on all the stores.

I heard they gave stores like Apple free rent for moving over from Gateway. They cannibalized Gateway to improve the look of real estate across the street from their HQ; just to look better for their visitors.

LDS Inc will claim money came from their real estate division, but ultimately all money originally came from tithing and bequests of members. That money could have been used for helping the poor in this and all the countries they operate in.

The great men called by ghawd to lead the Jesus Christ Holy Roamin' Latter Day Saints, were inspired by he who dwells on high to put aside a few bucks here, a few bucks there, and when the time was right, this rainy day fund was used to pay for City Creek. Of course the money was originally mostly tithing, but there were probably a lot of 'free will donations', such as proceeds from wills and trusts.

The interesting thing about City Creek is that there is no debt load, no mortgage. The church only has to pay operating expenses, which makes it easy for them to extend really favorable terms to the businesses they lease to.

There is a great deal of ignobility on the part of the church leadership in that they are able to take all the credit for the 'success' of their (fully funded) endeavors, paid for by the members, who get diddly squat in return.

I'm with the Dawg.... If there was no tithing or fast offerings or building fund monies, the church would go broke....

Thats what they use for purchases.

This pretext offered up from time to time about such and such wasn't done with tithing monies just kills me. In the words of Ziller, wait wut? Money is fungible, of course, so they take tithes and transfer them to the do-what-we-want-to account, and suddenly they're not "tithes" anymore... it was only tithes when it was tithed. After that, it's whatever we want it to be.

The tithing money was perfectly laundered before it was used to pay for the mall.

A TBM tried telling me the money came from money derived of estate endowments.... because I'm sure that makes it all ok. Grandma really intended her bequeathed estate to be used in a for profit commercial real estate venture.

There's ONLY been Tithing...& dividends from Tithing since the very start of the scheme back in 1830.

Or so it seems to me...

You have to realize though that despite the church owns the prime real estate commercial property; the mall itself has little traffic flow.

Without shoppers to sustain it, it's losing money. It can't compete with the Internet anymore than other major malls do.

It will go out of business at the current rate if there isn't a reversal of its 'fortune.'

Picture it a ghost mall in the future. Or possibly converted into more office space in place of retail.

Nope. Many shops get free rent and assists with payroll. The morg built it to use as a barrier for Temple Square. They will never let it fail. Plus, if it went out of business, it would look like the profit and his apostles, had no power of discernment or sense of the future. City Creek is here to stay.

ZCMI is where the Macy's now stands. That went bust a long time ago.

The church doesn't decide market forces. There are barely any shoppers there now to sustain it.

I don't see how it will survive given the current retail climate.

"On their last leg, ZCMI and Crossroads were themselves ghost malls."

Note that ZCMI was church owned and operated (as in the Mormon church owned the controlling shares of its stock.) That did not prevent it from going out of business.

"A report by Credit Suisse, an international financial company, predicted up to a fourth of all shopping malls across the U.S. are doomed to die within five years. Attributing the extinction to online retailers that are siphoning business away from brick-and-mortar, a recent Los Angeles Times article citing the study notes that many shopping centers across the nation are shifting their focus to food and entertainment as a means of survival.

Search for commentary about the future of American shopping malls and you'll notice one recurring name: Rick Caruso, a California developer who owns The Grove, a renowned L.A. shopping complex. In a plethora of news outlets, Caruso prognosticates the indoor mall's demise.

Delivering the keynote address at a conference for the National Retail Federation in 2014, Caruso described a dire end for the American mall. "I've come to a conclusion that within 10 to 15 years, the typical U.S. mall, unless completely reinvented, will become a historical anachronism," he said. "A 60-year-or-so aberration that no longer meets the public's needs, the retailer's needs or the community's needs."

https://www.cityweekly.net/utah/ghost-mall/Content?oid=5786013

You've done a terrific job of finding commentary that speaks to the demise of shopping malls, but you haven't addressed StillAnon's basc point:

>
> Many shops get free rent and assists with payroll.
> The morg built it to use as a barrier for Temple
> Square. They will never let it fail.
>

Is this expressed view incorrect, because if it isn't, all the citations of doom and gloom are pointless.

City Creek has a distinct advantage over other malls in that they don't have a mortgage to pay off nor REIT investors looking for quarterly dividends like most mall owners. They have deep pockets and a stream of tithing and bequests coming in to cover any net operating losses (after they pay maintenance and security and pay Taubman for day-to-day management). So City Creek can outlive some others, but if people think its more of a hassle to go downtown to shop than to an indoor mall or strip mall in the 'burbs, they will suffer and eventually stores will close due to lack of sales. Even free rent can't cover all their fixed operating costs.

So that means their next step is to repopulate the downtown area...

Have they made any moves in that direction?

numbersRus Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> City Creek has a distinct advantage over other
> malls in that they don't have a mortgage to pay
> off nor REIT investors looking for quarterly
> dividends like most mall owners.

BINGO!


> They have deep
> pockets and a stream of tithing and bequests
> coming in to cover any net operating losses (after
> they pay maintenance and security and pay Taubman
> for day-to-day management).

As "they" means LD$ inc, BINGO!

> So City Creek can
> outlive some others,

it is amazing what an unlevel playing field (insider connection) can do !!!

> but if people think its more
> of a hassle to go downtown to shop than to an
> indoor mall or strip mall in the 'burbs,

Wow, why would anyone think that ????
I mean going down town Salt Lake City is always great fun, because getting closer to LD$ inc headquarters is always an elevating experience, just like going to MORmON heaven, just ask the MORmONS!!!



> they will
> suffer and eventually stores will close due to
> lack of sales.


> Even free rent can't cover all
> their fixed operating costs.

(Nasty) Reality strikes again !!!

I love shopping malls but they never have anything I want or need.

With the widow's mite, silly.

That's why Tommy luvs widows.

They used my school lunch money.

Your tithing dollars at work.

"There are barely any shoppers there now to sustain it."

This is complete nonsense. They turn in healthy sales tax receipts. Somebody is buying stuff. I go through the mall two or three times a week, and I see plenty of foot traffic.

Right now, with people going down to see the lights at Temple Square, the amount of foot traffic in the mall is through the roof. The Blue Line TRAX train from Draper is running 4 cars basically for their entire schedule. Usually they cut down to 2 cars nights and weekends. Four is the most they can run at once. Any longer and the train would block crosswalks downtown.

I don't think I have ever seen the Apple Store with fewer than 40 people in it, and I go past there several times a week.

I went with friends to see the lights Friday night about 7 pm. The sidewalk on the east side of Main Street was packed with pedestrians waiting to cross S Temple to Main Street Plaza. The line of people waiting to cross the street was 3/4ths of a block long, and it took three light changes for me to walk across S Temple. The crowds were just stunning. I figure about a hundred people crossed the street with each traffic light cycle.

Reports of the death of City Creek Center are greatly exaggerated. I know the failure of the mall is a popular wet dream here, so sorry to put a dent in your fantasy.

Your report of the success of LD$ Inc's CCC mall is greatly exaggerated.

You sound like a MORmON PR agent as you talk about the place. You go on and on about throngs of people who end up there, but it is mostly for ulterior reasons, not for shopping. Then there is NO actual mention of what would really make the MORmON Vatican Mall a success -the throngs of people seen actually buying stuff there, which they are NOT doing to any great extent that would come even remotely close to justifying the horrendous expense of building the place/ epic boondoggle.

....For those who have not heard, Malls in general are in a huge down swing. Based on the (dwindling) profit report several years ago of the biggest mall management firm in the US with dozens of malls across the country and applying all of that to CCC, it would take 50 years to pay off CCC, with out paying any interest. THAT is a loser!!!!

Sure CCC mall will stay open because LDS inc will endlessly prop it up as an accessory/ appendage to their downtown Salt Lake City MORmON Vatican, but out side of that, in any conventional sense CCC mall is a HUGE loser. One that will NEVER actually pay for itself by itself.

If you think I am an LDS Inc sympathizer, you must be new here. I just walk through the mall regularly. Claims that it has no traffic flow are bullshit. I'm trying to debunk bullshit, even if it is coming from exMormons.

Brother Of Jerry Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> If you think I am an LDS Inc sympathizer,

I don't.

> you must
> be new here.

I am not.

So, You made a false assumption to then arrive at a false conclusion in your attempt to (supposedly) fend off BS. Great job. Thank goodness that you are not a MORmON! However, your two wrongs did not get anything right. Any other /more stuff that you need to be wrong about ???


> I just walk through the mall
> regularly. Claims that it has no traffic flow are
> bullshit. I'm trying to debunk bullshit, even if
> it is coming from exMormons.

Just because lots of people are funneled through CCC, at certain times due to its strategic location, does not mean that those people are buying lots of (grossly over priced) stuff at (the grossly inconvenient) CCC mall. See the previous paragraph on false assumptions used in conjunction with false logic leads to more false assumptions/ error.

CCC mall needs lots of people buying lots of stuff, you know like people do when they go to Wal Mart or Costco and they are seen with all of those loaded shopping carts and sale receipts -stuff that you did not mention seeing at CCC mall. That is what CCC needs to pay for itself.

When I went to CC mall it was in May, during a weekday *but* it was also at the beginning of the summer tourist season. There was also a convention of some kind that day I was there, and the parking garages were filled to capacity. And still there were no shoppers!

The stores were literally EMPTY. The corridors had barely any walkers - you'd have to look far and wide to see another person.

Those stores are so overpriced that no middle class people could reasonably afford to shop there.

If the only people who buy are the GA's wives and their families, then that is who the stores are there for - because they aren't designed for typical shoppers.

No mall anywhere in America can stay in business when the sales are sluggish. Most malls are designed for mainstream America. Not City Creek. It's a high end retail establishment for only the most well off - and if they have any common sense would go elsewhere to preserve their anonymity. It *isn't* Rodeo Drive !

It will go out of business. It's only a matter of when, not if.

I remember that there was a giant car wash.

"We'll" never know tithing. They will lie to you. The shoppers [TAXPAYERS] PAY. They only pray, and advertise and make-lose $.

Ever heard of thievery (on unsuspecting followers)? Think of it as tithes and you'll be about as close to the truth/ facts as you can get without touching them.

It is NOT that hard to figure out.

LDS inc robbed people like my MORmON grandparents and MORmON parents, and probably your MORmON kin, for decades.

In the 50's 60's 70's tithing was just the start of paying off LDS Inc. then came ward budget and everything else that LDS Inc could think of to extract another tithing from members.

Gordon BS Hinckley felt that he was responsible for dynamic growth of MORmONISM by watering down and dumping unpleasant aspects of MORmON DoctURINE. For that, City Creek Center Mall was built as a monument to filthy foul nasty Gordon.

The UTA light rail train, the Utah Jazz, City Creek Center Mall, The 2002 WInter MO'lympics, the LD$ Inc conference center, are all components of Hinckley's master plan to glamorize and show case Salt Lake City as a glorious MORmON mecca /vatican and in turn to promote the filthy corrupt money grubbing MORmON religion.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xDhAIjF0wQI

At the bottom of the donation slip is the following disclaimer.

"Though reasonable efforts will be made to use donations as designated, all donations become the Church's property and will be used at the Church's sole discretion to further the Church's overall mission."

This gives them license to do do whatever the hell they want and their contracted accountants can stand up in GC and claim that all funds have been used appropriately.

They had to off load all that tithing cash that was swimming around their bank account in the limbo gray zone between non profit $ and the for profit business accounts.

After billions spent eventually they will make their return on investment ROI. If they haven't already.

"McMullin said not one penny of tithing goes to the church's for-profit endeavors. Specifically, the church has said no tithing went toward City Creek Center."

http://archive.sltrib.com/article.php?id=54478720&itype=CMSID

Because finances are secret and un-reported McMullin can claim all he wants. There is not way to know the truth unless it is leaked. For the last 60 years they have been doing a good job keeping a tight lid on that intel.

Even if the air gapped server was removed and accessed and the data came out --- I think a low percentage of cult mormons would even wakeup to the monstrous news about how wealthy the church and is and so little they give back to their members and communities in helping the needy. They could look at the financials are and say you are capable of doing 10 fold more in helping.

Giving 15% back to needy communities and services would be a start. Rather than less than 1%.

Quite the con job to get so many people programmed to give up so much of their time and tell them the feelings they have are from God rather than a good feeling all humans can generate on their own.

That article says that lds.inc has some for profit things.

"AgReserves, another for-profit Mormon umbrella company, together with other church-run agricultural affiliates, reportedly owns about 1 million acres in the continental U.S., on which the church has farms, hunting preserves, orchards and ranches. These include the $1 billion, 290,000-acre Deseret Ranches in Florida, which, in addition to keeping 44,000 cows and 1,300 bulls, also has citrus, sod and timber operations.
Outside the U.S., AgReserves operates in Britain, Canada, Australia, Mexico, Argentina and Brazil. Its Australian property, valued at $61 million in 1997, has estimated annual sales of $276 million, according to Dun & Bradstreet."

But in my opinion everything must have started with tithing money. 1830 when JS started it.

subeamnotlogedin Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> But in my opinion everything must have started with tithing money. 1830 when JS started it.

In my opinion everything started with donations to the church OUTSIDE of tithing. Going back to Martin Harris giving Joseph Smith cash to publish the Book of Mormon. I know MANY people (my father included) who, in addition to paying tithing, have donated MILLIONS OF DOLLARS to the church as part of their estate planning. I doubt they are the only ones to do so.

Combine that with the incredible revenue generated by the "for-profit" side of the church (established through donations OTHER THAN tithing), and it is quite believable that the church used no tithing money in building City Creek. I would bet that the church didn't even consider touching tithing revenues. Why would they? Tithing revenues are just a drop in the bucket compared to what they bring in from their business ventures and other donations.

Of course all of us exmos wish that could be proven differently, but after all of these years we still have no evidence and are left with baseless claims ("It all must have started with tithing") and lame assumptions...kind of like how we used to defend the gospel when we were members. I guess for some of us old habits won't die.

I suppose money from the last 20 years could all be from the for-profit side. It's unknonw.

But money origin was from donations and tithing. The money shifts over in whatever clever accounting tricks occur and businesses are injected with money. IRS can't tell because they are only reading form for the businesses. With so many legal entities I bet LDS businesses have not been audited for a very long time by the IRS.

Church businesses haven't always been very successful. Their insurance company almost went bellyup in 2008-2009 and had to get a money injection with millions in cash. You can't have a Jesus company file chapter 11. Otherwise people start to wonder how did Jesus give such bad advice on that investment or marketing idea. Yet it happens frequently. Thus, the church is always coming up with new ways to market to the masses the mormon way, religion, and get on board -- your eternal family depends on it.

A nice URL on the matter of Beneficial Life.

https://exploringmormonism.com/beneficial-life-the-bailout-member-dont-know-about-but-should-the-600-million-dollar-scandal/

$600 million dollars of tithing was used. But it was a loan to be paid back so NOW it wasn't tithing money.

Deseret Management Corp does not make money. It redistributes money from the other corporations.

With Forensic accounting the money shell game could be better understood.

From the link:

"So why haven’t you heard about this by members? I don’t know, it was published in the Wall Street Journal[8]…"

http://idellecromwell1991.blogspot.com/2009/06/beneficial-life-to-stop-new-policies.html

similar from yahoo --
http://web.archive.org/web/20090625115443/http://finance.yahoo.com/news/AM-Best-Downgrades-Ratings-of-bw-1714016202.html?x=0&.v=2

"But I’d guess the reason that members think it is no big deal is that Deseret Management provided the $600 million. No tithing was used, we were assured over and over."

"Except I have a co-worker who interviewed with a former VP of Beneficial Life. During the interview, this subject came up and the VP admitted that it was all tithing dollars."

“Even though tithing dollars were used, Beneficial Life will pay it all back” (paraphrase of the direct quote because memories are not precise). In fact, that is exactly why they continue to service the policies. It wasn’t just being nice to all the members who bought policies (because when the GAs die, they will need to pay out… this is a losing proposition), but because as the people who still have policies pay, the church gets a payback on the tithing dollars infused."

--I don't know where this interview is. Or the name but someone else could probably find it.

"This is a pretty clear case of lying to membership on where tithing dollars go and how they are used. Giving loans that will be paid back can be considered “not tithing” when talking to the press. Well all those General Authority loans mentioned here[9] in a post yesterday become very suspicious."

Thanks for your post, I learned something new.

It doesn't matter whether the money came out of the left pocket or the right pocket. If all the money in the left pocket went to the mall, then at least some of the expenses that are normally covered from the left pocket will have to be covered from the right pocket.

If you were going to put $4,000 in your 401k this year, and bought a piano instead, saying at least you didn't take any money out of your 401K is technically true. However your decision clearly did decrease the balance in your 401K at the end of the year. Your technically true statement is seriously misleading.

"No tithing money was spent on the mall" is probably technically true.

And misleading is all the church does.

they sent a 'bag man' with lots of $100,000,000,000 notes of funds drawn on the Kirtland Anti-Banking Society who left the notes in a plain paper bag, somewhere in a SLC phone booth...



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 12/13/2017 01:25PM by GNPE.

Moroni sold the plates of ice cold gold back into the fold (bold) we are told.

They weren't worth the tin they were scratched upon, but with interest (which there was none) - and a 5 billion (three) dollar (bill) loan of a bone, they were able to resurrect it... with their erector set.

LDSinc sells trash (notes) [and peddles garbage - to its members/ [don't] shareholders, and the world-at-large, and uses the prophets to build the bubbles you see.