He should not resign until drumpf does.

He should resign.

The Dems should live by principle even if the GOP does not. If the Dems tolerate this sort of misbehavior, they are no different than the Republicans.

I guess you like being played by republicans.

Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 12/07/2017 12:31PM by steve benson.

In a perfect world I would agree with you, Steve. And I personally like to do as you suggest. However, in a non-cooperative environment, always doing the "right thing" will get you eaten by opponents who choose not to do so.

Here's a quick intro on strategies for the "iterated prisoner's dilemma": https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Prisoner%27s_dilemma#Strategy_for_the_iterated_prisoner.27s_dilemma

In a world where everyone has a conscience and is willing to cooperate in some form, doing the right thing is the best move. However, when the world is full of narcissists, sociopaths, psychopaths and other predators in positions of power, realpolitik is the only way to avoid getting conquered and enslaved.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Realpolitik

This doesn't mean that one has to be manipulative and Machiavellian. A strategy of "tit for tat with forgiveness" tends to work well and rewards cooperation.

Once medical and psychological testing get good enough, perhaps we can put bright red tattoos on the foreheads of certain dangerous individuals so that others aren't fooled. "Poor impulse control" (thanks to Neal Stephenson for that one), "Low empathy", "Emotional disregulation", "History of sexual predation". That might make the world safer for the rest of us.

Perfect, Steve. Thank you.

That's a lot of tattoo's to put on one presidents forehead? Might have to scoot that hair-thing up a bit to get them in. /s

Gosh, in the old days they used to say you can survive as long as you "never get caught with a 'dead' girl or a 'live' or a live boy." Hopefully after all this mess we'll have moved that ball forward a bit.

Dave,

I like you and I usually agree with you.

Here, though, I disagree. The country is at a crossroads. It is my belief that there must be moral responsibility at the highest levels. The GOP has proved itself to be the party of pedophiles and sexual harassers. The Democratic Party has a chance to differentiate itself.

It is my firm belief that the party that defines itself as ethical on this issue will ultimately benefit from doing so. But that does not matter. Sometimes people have to do the right thing.

Both political sides are guilty of pedo stuff. If it's not an elected official, it is someone on their STAFF or a donor.

Nice to shine sunlight on all of these dirtbags.

Kick them out out out. No need to have double talkers and secret sexual mis deeds.

I love how people still believe in the two parties that run this country's politics, among other things. Both parties are morally bankrupt and not worth anyone's vote. But the system is set up to sustain both and keep them in power. Until we revolt and some how vote them out of office, nothing will change.

The problem with a revolution is you never know where it's going to go.

I agree, both parties are morally bankrupt. This expulsion of Franken led by the self-righteous Gillibrand is a stunt. Make a sacrificial lamb of Franken and we will clean up come next November.

No, this is not a sea change. Have you people forgotten what a short memory the collective have? Not to mention the millennia men have been oppressing women? I give it six months and everything will be back to the same old story. And Franken will be out and Roy Moore will be in.

That said, it's still the right thing to do the right thing. Even if the other guys are repellent scumbags.

Haha! Rigggghhht.

I don't really think about any of this, but I do wonder what's wrong with taking the stance:

"Okay, that was then, this is now! I promise not to do it again, so I'm not going to resign! Let him or her who is without sin cast the first vote against me!!! I say these things in Jesus' name, Amen."

This is bizarre.

The party that is obsessed with following God-given morals are the ones least likely practice what they preach.

As a Minnesotan I am sad I am losing an excellent representative. However, I appreciate the fact he can't be as effective as he wants to be with someone new coming out of the woodwork to accuse him every week.

That being said, he is no worse than the current occupant of the White House or the clown running in Alabama.

Well said.

Didn't he say he wouldn't resign when this first came to light?

It's how it works.

Be accused of X.
Response: Deny.

Real evidence along with real stories start to appear.

Response: Deny. No, it's not how I remember it. I'm sorry.

Public Outcry...

Response: Deny. No changes. I'm sorry that's how the event is remembered. Here is my story.

More accusers come forward. More evidence.

Response: I'm not going to resign.

Peers start asking for resignation (only to keep their people happy -- they can't support it)

Other people that are not public officials are being accused and canned.

Public outcry.

Response: Press conference.

Resigns.


Deny
Deny
Apologize
Re-interpret events
Try to get public acceptance.
Resign.

Didn't hear a real apology in his speech.

Correct.

He threw shade on to others. It was a resignation by a coward.

sbg Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> As a Minnesotan I am sad I am losing an excellent
> representative.

Keith Ellison for Senate!

There are many people in America who will not vote for someone if they express devotion to a 7th century child molester. If he wants more votes then he needs to unconditionally condemn any/all child molesting in history, including that one.

Actually, the one in the WH is worse than the candidate in Alabama whose actions are many years earlier and mostly constituted dating. The significant incident is questionable because it is unique.

Mitch McConnell calls on Franken to resign while his party spends cash to elect a child molester

Talk about draining the swamp. EVERY elected official in DC needs to be replaced. Corruption reigns on all sides.

Lethbridge Reprobate Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Talk about draining the swamp. EVERY elected
> official in DC needs to be replaced. Corruption
> reigns on all sides.

...except most of the ones that really *should* resign won't.

Of course. Same goes for this side of the border too.

The deepest part of the swamp in Washington is not Capitol Hill.

Her name is Tina Smith and is said to be a top contender.



Edited 3 time(s). Last edit at 12/07/2017 12:22PM by steve benson.

From a political optics standpoint it was the right thing to do.

I have a bit if a problem that allegations alone caused the party
leadership to force the resignation.

I hope Franken can write a book, do interviews etc to defenf himself.

The woman in the USO pic was smiling slightly in the photo, while supposedly asleep, which makes me think it was staged.

The DNC did take the high moral position, which does make the GOP look really bad.

It also begs the question of how many more elected officials will be accused in the near future. Obviously, after Franken, all must resign upon an accusation.

Pretty sure my man Bernie will not be accused.

I don't think the USO photo was staged, not by the woman. I don't see a smile but even so, perhaps she was smiling in her sleep. She didn't say she was in on the "joke". I don't see what she would gain by lying about that at this point.

She did say that she accepted his apology. I thought that was gracious of her.

I agree that the punishment for allegations only can seem unjustly extreme and inequitable considering a scale of level of offence. I think people are just feeling their way through a minefield that seemed to spring up overnight, that we're still negotiating our way through, with a long way to go.

That photo was clearly not staged. That woman was not happily participating.

She was said to have been exhausted after a long tour and not much sleep.

She looks asleep; she says she was asleep; Franken is behaving like an ass.

Why would we need to second guess her allegations?

In other words, you and I are in violent agreement.

Yes, we agree - I was responding to the suggestion above that the photo was staged. I was giving my reason for believing that she was asleep (that I had heard the explanation that she was asleep due to being exhausted). Over and above that, I believe her take on it, what she described from her perspective, the fact that she was willing to go public with it and he apologized. As has been mentioned here before, the standard of "innocent until proven guilty" is for a court of law. Outside of that, common sense can prevail.

It seems difficult for some to accept that a photo like that, and especially being widely publicized, can be humiliating, even if he didn't touch her (which I'm not clear on). Feeling humiliated can be very destructive.

I don't necessarily blame those who don't realize the harm of sexual harassment or even assault (seems obvious but not to all I guess) but I do expect them to listen and learn. And it's quite the education.

Too bad all the girls and women JS encountered didn't have the opportunity to report him. In addition to his many likely unwanted advances to females to whom he was not married, as well as the many episodes of frank coercion and assault, against minors in some cases, you could lose your breakfast reading about the abortions he procured for multiple women, whether they consented or not (or "consented" under protest). (As per thorough and footnoted research by former RfM poster "Deconstructor", as outlined in multiple posts).

Not just JS but all the (so-called) leaders and authorities since his day.

Those women had nowhere to go, no-one to hear them or take their side to protect them or help them attain justice.

How to quantify incidences of sexual abuse in today's Mormon circles. (Outside the open polygamous clans, where by definition it is rampant. I know of one prominent and now free and outspoken woman who was "married" at the age of 15 to a top leader. He was over 50. She was his 5th "wife". She was abused by her father, by adolescent males in her community when she was pre-school age - no adults stopped them despite obvious evidence that she had been raped - and then subsequently abused by her husband and others in his community). It is still occurring in these extreme groups but also certainly within the mainstream Mormon Church, as the odds would suggest.

I'm reading a novel in which one of the main female characters was brought up as a JW. As a teen she was repeatedly sexually abused by a prominent and respected leader, became pregnant, forced to abort, and then thrown out of the community - it was all her fault you see. Even though it's an imaginary character, it gave me shivers as I know it plays out for real in JW circles, even though they, as do so many, teach, preach and claim spiritual values and purity of members.

They speak of the "tipping point" now with all the recent disclosures and allegations. It's tough to see the widespread nature of the problem and that in some venues so many onlookers knew and were silent.

I can accept that it is apparently difficult for men to comprehend how slimy unwanted advances are, in so many ways. Especially before the more open conversation that has recently opened up. But now they (should) know. Don't be creepy. It's an extreme form of bullying to coerce someone. To overcome them by force. To take away their power. Their self-respect even. Perhaps their future. None of it their fault but many feel they are to blame, and often others claim that too. I can't even read the details of the behaviour of some of the men involved now - it's sickening. Lust gone mad. Who doesn't know that the workplace is the workplace and if you're taking off your clothes or waving your privates about that is way over the top, bizarre, out of control.

Some of the penalties that some men are experiencing now may seem arbitrary, unfair, inequitable. But I think we're all on a learning curve. I trust it will get us to a better place.

As for the current politics about this, I don't want to get too specific here (in the spirit of trying to follow board rules) but yeah, things should be equitable. Things are skewed now though - different values, competing visions, lust of a different kind (for power), a whole heap of hypocrisy and (willful?) blindness. Maybe things will level out. Here's hoping.

Meanwhile, I respect the brave folks who speak out for justice. I know that can be so difficult to do. Imagine hurt, shame, humiliation, regret, embarrassment and many other emotions and conditions arising from one human betraying and attacking another that not only severely negatively affects a person at the time of the incident/s but that lingers and festers and lasts long after the occurrence/s. And yet, they display strength and courage in speaking out about their most personal and devastating experience/s. Undoubtedly, that will help many others going forward, female and male, whom others seek to bully and assault.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 12/07/2017 01:31PM by Nightingale.

Of course all the honest people in the Church will not hesitate to call for all the information about Joseph Smith's affectionate life and that of the other leaders to come forward. Then we can contemplate it all as we sing "Praise to the Man" and contemplate this eternally unchangeable legacy they gave us. Ignoring it would be bad because then those pesky anti-Mormons would say "see its not a true church because they dishonestly ignore their history" and we can't have that :)

Ah, now I get it! “Praise to the Man” refers to the little man downstairs. The one Joseph did most of his thinking with. The real Godhead, communing with Jehovah at every chance. I learned something new today. Jehovah resides near the cervix, not Kolob, but not far from Uranus.

Bravo! I love cleverness!!!

"all must resign upon an accusation"

It was 7 accusations. I suspect there was another shoe or two about to drop. Having 3/4ths of his own caucus call for his resignation over the course of 12 hours is truly stunning. We haven't heard the whole story yet.

It will be a year, perhaps three years before we know if he and/or his party did the right thing politically. Morally, I think they are on fairly solid ground, though the point is arguable. As a former Minnesotan, I am pretty familiar with "Minnesota Nice". Doing The Right Thing is a big deal there. Franken did the right thing, and I half expect he may have a chance at redemption with Minnesota voters. Just not right now.

I lived there when Paul Wellstone was in the Senate. Franken mentioned Wellstone twice in his resignation speech, and for good reason. Wellstone always Did the Right Thing, and he was dearly loved in Minnesota. If the national Repubs have Saint Ronnie, the Minnesota DFL has Saint Paul. Minnesota got through Wellstone's death in a plane crash in 2002, and will get through this. Nationally, it will be largely out of mind in a few months, if not sooner.

Wellstone promised to only run for 2 terms. Then in 2002 he felt like he was too needed to give up. So he ran for a 3rd term. What a disgrace as he was just like Hatch, Bennett, and so many other loser liar politicians. Its sad that he died though too early for his time and unable to redeem his reputation. RIP Paul Wellstone.

See 39:00 to 42:00 at https://www.c-span.org/video/?173152-1/minnesota-senate-debate and especially the chilling soundbite of 41:00 by Coleman about the graveyards being filled with folks who thought they were indispensable.

Buh-Buy Al and John. Al had video evidence in action and photos. John Conyers had official legal papers against him.

Losers.

I'm all for any other GOP with enough real evidence to be removed as well. I don't mind replacing them with someone else that can do the job and not compromised.

Phazer, Phazer, Phazer. The photo was clearly staged. I mean, he was looking right at the camera, smiling, and the photo was included in the souvenir CD given to everyone on the USO tour. It was a gag.

Conyers had it coming. Al might have survived any other time than right now.

Nobody is disputing that Roy Moore was banned from the local mall. I wonder what one has to do to get banned from a mall anywhere, especially Alabama. He's compromised. (Not to mention already being impeached twice, or whatever the technical term is when a judge is removed).

Oh, the irony.

It's he said she said. An accusation made so far back that it can't be proven or known. That's why there are statues of limitation.

I'm just saying it can't be known. Even the most liberal fact check site can't be sure.


https://www.snopes.com/2017/11/17/roy-moore-banned-mall-harassing-teen-girls/

The records don't exist for such a claim.

I haven't read up on the judge's impeachment claims to know.

What I do think, is Alabam will vote him in.

If he is a dirtbag... in this environment...it will be exposed.

It's not "he said; she said."

It's "he said; 8 women, two dozen contemporaneous witnesses, and documentary evidence said."

I don't think either political party has the high ground regarding sexual behavior.

Clinton, Kennedy, Trump, Moore, etc. Seems the only common ground is that they are males.

I know this sounds very simplistic, but if women could agree where the country should head they could do it.

Since at least 1980 there are more women than men in the US.
https://www.statista.com/statistics/241495/us-population-by-sex/


Like Hillary and others have tried to break through the glass ceiling, it's time they do it. Drain the swamp of all the sexual deviants.

Get more women in position of leadership in all phases of government and religion.

Some others are men who are enabled by women.

Technically, he said he would resign in the coming weeks. 5 weeks? 10 weeks? 52 weeks?

Unless someone has pointed this out, Franken DID NOT RESIGN. he said he'd be resigning in the coming weeks.
My guess? If Roy Moore gets elected, Franken will not follow through.