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Posted by: Phazer ( )
Date: December 01, 2017 02:26PM

D. Michael Quinn -- A socialist

While listening to the MoStories podcast of D. Michael Quinn interview on his new book Wealth and Corporate Power, I was surprised to hear that Quinn believes in the ideals of socialism. Self admits it in episode 813 at the 112 min mark.

Socialism, an ideology that has failed in every place that it was ever tried.

After living in a socialist country [I forget which one] he realized that some of the principals his beloved mormon church held high were similar to socialism ideals [Early law on consecration living, polygamy households, and welfare programs -- He doesn't name them exactly -- guessing]. That Governments owe it to their citizens and have a responsibility to NOT allow poverty in it's society. Sounds great on paper! War on not allowing the poor hasn't worked in the USA after 50 years.

The church has ran into bankruptcy many times and even the leaders left their multiple wives in poverty living conditions. The Mormon church charitable donations seem weak and very small given the amount of tithing received each year billions in cash.

Overall, I think the research in Quinn's new book is very handicapped. His online sourcing and searching is hampered. While listening to the podcast Quinn appears very much to be an offline / unconnected type of person. An old gumshoe investigator failing to use all these online tools with limited understand. The exchange of information is limited, online time is just 2 to 3 hours at the library. The internet is not even in his own house. Hasn't had a cell phone in years. A lot of this comes down to a very tight budget, Hand to mouth living not knowing where the next grant may come from and his head buried in 19th & 20th century history books.

When new information was presented to him he just turned it away from because it would likely delay his book release AND it was a hassle to get that info given is offline living personality.

No fault on Quinn, but a lot of the church financial info just isn't available. Quinn relies on very outdated intelligence and property searches and aggregation of data is missing.

A lot of the information is very stale so I'd say his new book is half baked and stale shelf life.

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Posted by: elderolddog ( )
Date: December 01, 2017 02:30PM

Not to mention impenetrable...

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Posted by: Phazer ( )
Date: December 01, 2017 03:39PM

One day the empire will have the secrets released but the church likely follows a lot of compartmentalized procedures and the information is either written on paper in safes, or a laptop in a save, or a server room that is closed off, no internet, multiple barriers of security and must be accessed on location.

Total financial picture is only reviewed by 8 people, at least once a year and maybe 2 times a year. That's it. They put the laptop or ledger binders and new print out in the save and secure the door.

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Posted by: steve benson ( )
Date: December 06, 2017 03:00AM

"Jesus The Socialist: Why Christian Conservatives are Massive Frauds"

"By Charlotte Schnook

"As a scholar of religion it never fails to amaze me that despite there being over 2,000 Biblical verses in which scripture demands Christians tend to the needs of the poor, I am hard-pressed to find Christians who actually vote with this most imparted teaching. On the contrary, I find zealots who blame the impoverished for their misery, and take delight in the knowledge that such squalor allows their own family to have economic superiority. Watching the Republican campaigns the last 30 years in this country I have been hard-pressed to find ANY right wing policy which genuinely aided in alleviation of misery which poverty causes, but I find endless promises for continual war & tax cuts for the already wealthy. Republicans are often Christian enough to take away your civil liberties by trying to enforce their INTERPRETIVE ideas on abortion & homosexuality (yes, I said interpretive, because one is hard-pressed to make a SOLID case on these issues, for the Bible is contradictory on them) yet the Republican party is NOT Christian enough to do the duty Jesus MOST commanded: taking care of the poor. I would blow off this as mere appeal to Christianity for the sake of votes IF they hadn't went so damn right in the recent years that they've dragged the left with them in desperation, which has caused the Democrats to also abandon the needs of the working class and now we are stuck in a jungle capitalist nightmare of no hope without a bloody revolution. So how is it that the Republican party (and pretty much the Democrats now as well) can claim themselves to be based on 'Christian Values' when the repeatedly violate what Jesus says? And what is it exactly that Jesus did say?

"JESUS ON ECONOMICS:

"In America (and in all capitalist countries) people assume their wealth is their own. It's a bedrock belief, we are taught to admire those who build wealth, attain impressive houses, cars, clothes, and retire early to Florida. We are told by the Christian Republican right wing & conservative left that the wealthy worked hard for their money and deserve to reap the benefits. But the Bible tells us differently.

"Luke 12 displays a Jesus delivering parables of a successful businessman. He is so successful that he cannot find enough room for all of his harvest. So the wealthy business man undertakes a massive building project to protect his wealth and plan an early retirement. The 'Christian' culture of America would say this man is a success, for the man did what we are told to do all the time: expand, invest, and use for personal benefit. So why does Jesus in his parable consider this an antithesis to success? He instead says God considers this man a "fool" BECAUSE he only used his wealth for his "own" benefit. Jesus goes on to admonish the selfishness and lack of communalism of the businessman. In ultimate renunciation of the man, Jesus advocates the man should have redistributed his wealth to the poor!

"There are countless Biblical stories that match the evil "socialist" economic ethic, such as the story of Zacchaeus the Tax Collector, which, so illuminating, is found in Luke 19:1-10: Zacchaeus gives half of his wealth and pays back four times what he has defrauded. He has put his own wealth and honor in jeopardy in order to benefit his neighbors and his community. Additionally, Luke 16 contains the story of Lazarus and the rich man. The rich man eats wonderful food and dresses in the finest clothes. Lazarus sits outside of his gates and waits for the scraps from his table. Both men die. The rich man lands in torment and Lazarus at Abraham's side. The rich man's sin, was ignoring the suffering of the poor. He thought of his wealth as his own and the poverty and suffering of others as having no connection to him. This view of the world lands him in torment. How can anyone read these things and then claim Jesus would back a system that propagates a personal/private view of wealth? Both characters in these stories are punished because they only thought of themselves and their wealth!

"'Blessed are you who are poor, for yours is the Kingdom of God' - Luke 6:20-26

"'Now listen, you rich people, weep and wail because of the misery that will come upon you. Your wealth will rot, and moths will eat your clothes. For your gold and silver are corroded. Their corrosion will testify against you and eat your flesh like fire. You who have hoarded wealth in the last days!' - James 5:1-3

"'How terrible for you who are rich now, for you have had your easy life and will get no more..." - Luke 6:24

"'But when you give a feast, invite the poor, the maimed, the lame, the blind, and you will be blessed, because they cannot repay you. You will be repaid at the resurrection of the just." - Luke 14:13-14

"If someone takes away your coat, let him have your shirt as well...

"'In the temple courts [Jesus] found men selling cattle, sheep and doves and other sitting at tables exchanging money. So he made a whip out of cords, and drove all from the temple area, both sheep and cattle; he scattered the coins of the money changers and overturned their tables." - John 2:14-15. This story which shows Jesus' rage against what is essentially corporate Greed, merging money with state & theological power, is also repeated in Matthew 21:12 (summed here essentially): Jesus walks into the temple courtyard and sees how merchants there change money, they have built their business up around what is supposed to be God's temple. Jesus is horrified by the idea that God's home could be profaned with money and the desire to be wealthy, he loses it, making a whip and begins turning over the tables the merchants are trading upon, he drives out the cattle being sold and screams a ton of insults at the people in the courtyard. Jesus was filled with righteous indignation at the idea of Church being involved with business, he was horrified that it could be used as a network for making money.

9Why do Republicans not feel even a twinge of this divine rage? Why do they say the liberal idea of keeping church separate from state or economics is demonic, when clearly Jesus himself was of the idea?!?!? How do we rectify this with the Republican Christian revulsion to our discussion of taking "in God we trust" off of our money?

"'Watch out! Be on your guard against all kinds of greed; a man's life does not consist in the abundance of his possessions.' - Luke 12-15.

"'Truly, I say unto you, it will be hard for a rich man to enter the kingdom of heaven.' - Matthew 19:23

"'Render therefore unto Caesar the things which are Caesar's; and unto God the things that are God's' - Matthew 22:21. Republicans would have us believe that paying taxes is a horrific idea, they don't want to pay into social benefits because it violates their "freedom", but what of their God's commandment to pay taxes?!?!

"'Give to everyone who begs from you...' - Luke 6:30

"'And I'll say to myself, "You have plenty of good things laid up for many years. Take life easy; eat, drink and be merry." But God said to him, "You fool! This very night your life will be demanded from you. Then who will get what you have prepared for yourself?" This is how it will be with anyone who stores up things for himself but is not rich toward God.' - Luke 12:19-21

"'So in everything, do to others as you would have them do to you" - Matthew 7:12 or 'Love your neighbor as yourself' - Matthew 22:39. This is what Jesus said is the sum of his law. Yet does Republican policy (or even modern Democrat policy) embody that? Does the person who assigns 18,000 Americans to die a year from lack of health care, "love his neighbor"? Does the American who back the war for oil and allowed over a million innocent Iraqis to die, "love his neighbor"? Is a society that doesn't provide free education a display of love for community? Is a society that takes money from the working class to pay for the insane bonuses of wealthy CEOS an act of love for ALL neighbors? Or only an act of love for the rich? And what is it Jesus would say about that?

"'He who oppresses the poor to increase his wealth and he who gives gifts to the rich - both come to poverty.' - Proverbs 22:16

"If someone takes what is yours, do not ask for it back again...

"'For we brought nothing into the world, and we can take nothing out of it. But if we have food and clothing, we will be content with that. People who want to get rich fall into temptation and a trap and into many foolish and harmful desires that plunge men into ruin and destruction. For the love of money is the root of all evil. Some people, eager for money, have wandered from the faith and pierced themselves with many griefs.' 1 Timothy 6:7-10

"'All the believers were together and had everything in common. They sold property and possessions to give to anyone who had need....' - Acts 2:44-45

"'But love your enemies, and do them good, and lend, never despairing; and your reward shall be great, and ye shall be sons of the Most High: for he is kind toward the unthankful and evil.' - Luke 6:35

"'Let no man seek his own, but every man another's wealth' - 1 Corinthians 10:24. That comment REEKS of 'redistribution' that idea that Republican Christians LOATHE. If it is such an evil concept, why does the Bible say we should do it? Moreover, the Bible doesn't claim we should do it in favor of the rich, like we did with the bail-outs. On the contrary, it claims we should forgive the debt of the poor and let the rich fund it!

"Take a look at the story about debt in Luke 7:36-50: We find Jesus eating with a Pharisee, who would be an "elite", a part of the richest in society. Pharisees often threw banquets to show off their wealth, it was a status display in ancient Jerusalem that gained them honor in the eyes of their peers. The Pharisee invited Jesus, but at the party a sinner woman comes in and begins weeping at his feet, washing them. The Pharisee thinks to himself how Jesus must not be a prophet for the woman is of low class & Jesus, if he had divine powers, should have known so. Jesus understands the man's thoughts and counters them with a parable about who would love a wealthy man that forgave debt more, someone who owed 50 pence or one who owed 500. The answer is of course the one who owed 500 and then a long diatribe begins about how the more sinful or impoverished a person is, the more they love who forgives them. He is sure to point out that the pharisee in no way treated him with the same honor as the woman at his feet, because he did not understand the need of the impoverished.

"Imagine if the Republicans who pretend to be Christians REALLY acted like one and instead of authoring bailouts used the 700 billion to buy out the debts of the poor who were in foreclosure. How would that affect our society? We are now in a situation where the rich have MORE money and the working class are MORE IN DEBT, to the point where 1 out of 8 Americans is now facing homelessness! How much crime & threat of violent revolution will we be facing in another three years when we continue on this trend of bailing out rich and we reach the projected number of 50% of families facing homelessness? It stands to reason there Jesus deliberately taught us to pray: 'forgive us our debts as we forgive our debtors'. Its a reiteration of the law God gave to the Jews, the law that was ignored so Jesus had to come. There's a ton of debt theme verses from the Bible, and yet the party that claims to embody Christian values say people who advocate giving bail outs to American workers & not American CEOS are "evil socialists"... So the question rises: what does Jesus advocating redistribution make him? Are the Republicans saying Jesus is a socialist? Or are they implying Jesus is Evil? You can't answer that question without revealing Republicans & conservative Democrats for what they are: liars!

"In further reassertion, take one simple glance into Matthew 19:21-24: 'Do not store up for yourselves treasures on earth, where moth and rust destroy, and where thieves break in and steal. But store up for yourselves treasures in heaven, where moth and rust do not destroy, and where thieves do not break in and steal. For where your treasure is,there your heart will be also [...] Jesus answered, "If you want to be perfect, go, sell your possessions and give to the poor, and you will have treasure in heaven. Then come, follow me." But when the young man heard that saying, he went away sorrowful; for he had great possessions. Then Jesus said to his disciples, "I tell you the truth, it is hard for a rich man to enter the kingdom of heaven. Again I tell you, it is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle than for a rich man to enter the kingdom of God."'

"Clearly, those who have possessions of value then are not 'perfect.' They are deliberately ignoring Jesus' teachings, because they care more about their wealth than they do their Jesus. Knowing this, Republicans and conservative Democrats really have NO right to call themselves Christian.

"'Then he will say to those on his left, "Depart from me, you who are cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels. For I was hungry and you gave me nothing to eat, I was thirsty and you gave me nothing to drink, I was a stranger and you did not invite me in, I needed clothes and you did not clothe me, I was sick and in prison and you did not look after me." They also will answer, 'Lord, when did we see you hungry or thirsty or a stranger or needing clothes or sick or in prison, and did not help you?' He will reply, "I tell you the truth, whatever you did not do for one of the least among you, you did not do for me."' - Matthew 25:41-45. And so we have Jesus promising to treat Republicans and conservative Democrats EXACTLY how they treated the poor. I may be an Atheist but scriptures like this make me WISH this theology was true just so I could see the day of justice.

"'He is conceited and understands nothing. He has an unhealthy interest in controversies and quarrels about words that result in envy, strife, malicious talk, evil suspicions, and constant friction between men of corrupt mind, who have been robbed of the truth and who think that godliness is a means to financial gain' - 1 Timothy 6:4-5

"And there it is, those who think godliness leads to financial gain do not know the 'truth.' Why does the 700 club never mentions this verse?!?!? Whenever I turn that shitty show on I see them claim,'give to us and god will return your wealth ten fold.& (There by also implying the opposite: the poor are supposedly sinners which is why they have no favor from God) What a fucking scam!!!! And these Christians fall for it CONSTANTLY, because they are too fucking lazy to read their own Bibles, it's so shameful!

"And this isn't the only such verse which absolutely buries the idea that money does NOT equate to divine favor: 'When Simon saw that the Spirit was given at the laying on of the apostles' hands, he offered them money and said, "Give me also this ability so that everyone on whom I lay my hands may receive the Holy Spirit.' Peter answered: 'May your money perish with you, because you thought you could buy the gift of God with money!"' - Acts 8:18-20

"'Whoever loves money never has money enough; whoever loves wealth is never satisfied with his income. This too is meaningless.' - Ecclesiastes 5:10 . . .



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 12/06/2017 03:26AM by steve benson.

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Posted by: Phazer ( )
Date: December 01, 2017 03:36PM

Quinn is very nuanced with many views. Not black/white binary and lots of gray seeing various sides of issues with tinge of communist/solcialist party rhetoric in some responses when talking about his military service. A bit woke in recognizing the MIC which is really a Wealth Industrial Transfer Complex since it isn't the 1950s anymore.

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Posted by: Brother Of Jerry ( )
Date: December 01, 2017 03:37PM

How is self admitted different from just plain "admitted"? Or is the point to pile on adjectives that make something sound more ominous?

And wasn't the preferred pejorative "avowed", or is it only atheists that are avowed?

Socialism is working rather well in quite a few places. Canada (socialism lite) and Scandinavia come to mind. Maybe socialism works better with snow.

Essentially all industrialized countries have socialized medical systems, including the US if you are over 64 years old. That's been working reasonably well. Most nations, especially the US, have a totally socialized military. Somehow that socialism always seems to be OK.

And I'm not sure what any of that has to do with Quinn's book. I'm not buying the book, but I'm not "buying" the review either.

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Posted by: ificouldhietokolob ( )
Date: December 01, 2017 03:50PM

Phazer Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Socialism, an ideology that has failed in every
> place that it was ever tried.

You should tell that to the police, fire, road, and other government services you use and rely on...'cause they're socialist services. So is the US military.

Oops.

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Posted by: cludgie ( )
Date: December 05, 2017 03:32PM

Thank you very much for pointing this out.

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Posted by: cludgie ( )
Date: December 05, 2017 03:51PM

Apparently you are very confused, politically speaking. Some of our most successful countries are socialist democracies. Do they have any disadvantages to, say, our form of democracy? Yes and no. The taxes in all 5 Scandinavian countries are high, as they are in countries like France and Germany, to name two others. But remember that Americans have whole regions of the country that are impoverished. Not only is there no tax income to help them, but there is no vehicle in place to even bring them care if we had it. In Sweden, Finland, Denmark, Norway, and Iceland, there are "no poor among them," to use a phrase from Mormon scriptures. France has the best access to medicine than any country in the world. Germany requires that employers pay 50% of employees' medical insurance, and guarantees medical treatment for those with no income, paying for it with hefty tobacco, liquor, and gasoline taxes. This is called socialist democracy. Now the world is witness to just how bad our system is. Our system has failed bigly. However, our country is far larger and not as homogeneous as, say, Sweden, where it is much easier to apply all their benefits.

I personally am grateful that after 43 years of military and federal service, I am 100% insured, as is my wife. Hardly anyone has the insurance I now have, but--quite serendipitously--went through life working along a certain track. But with my children it's very different. I have a son with brain cancer; his brain surgery was performed at the prestigious New York Langone Medical Center in Manhattan, paid for by the Affordable Care Act (so-called "Obamacare"). Now that is being taken from him, and he will not be covered for his follow-on chemo and radio-therapy. I'm supposed to be all charged up over "American democracy" because of this? No, they can all fuck off. I feel like writing Emmanuel Macron and asking him to help extend the life of my son by allowing him access to treatment as a legal resident of the social democratic Republique Francaise

edited: Obviously I meant to put this down below, but forgot to do a new entry.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 12/05/2017 03:52PM by cludgie.

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Posted by: Lot's Wife ( )
Date: December 06, 2017 03:17AM

Cludgie, this is a moving post. I agree with most of what you write and, more importantly, hope your son and your family are okay.

I would add that the United States is pretty much as socialist as the European countries. The difference is that the Europeans pay for most of their spending through taxes and Americans depress their tax rates and borrow to make up the difference. Total spending as a proportion of GDP doesn't differ that greatly.

Why does this matter? A couple of reasons. One is the lack of social infrastructure to which you allude: healthcare. Put differently, Americans don't spend efficiently. The other is that borrowing to finance current spending is simply a way of shifting taxes from the people who are enjoying the expenditures today to their children tomorrow. The debts have to be paid, and they will be--through taxes or through inflation, which is effectively a tax.

The truth is that the US is under-taxed. Americans spend roughly as much as other developed economies but pay for it in the coin of their children's and grandchildren's living standards. Not very responsible, that.

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Posted by: Transitioningoutnotloggedin ( )
Date: December 01, 2017 04:05PM

Well maybe someone should tell Sweden that Socialism doesn't work. They seem to be too happy to realize that Phazer has all the answers.

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Posted by: Phazer ( )
Date: December 01, 2017 04:20PM

Visit the Muslim side of town on your next visit. Those open border policies are marvelous.

Sweeden will tax there people more as they are not generating big populations to help out with the taxing. There in lies the issue for importing refugees for the job slots but isn't quite working out the way they thought it would.


The important part is they are just sticking with socialism and not moving to the next phase.

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Posted by: Transitioningoutnotloggedin ( )
Date: December 01, 2017 07:30PM

Dumb argument. You don't have a clue.

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Posted by: pilgrim ( )
Date: December 03, 2017 12:14AM

Perhaps he has more clues about this than you do....I've seen the poverty in the Islamic oil-rich countries, where the majority of people are dirt poor; women and animals are subject to brutal treatment.

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Posted by: Lot's Wife ( )
Date: December 03, 2017 12:55AM

You miss the point. Phazer says, falsely, that socialism leads to lower fertility rates, the need to import labor, and then problems with that labor. He would do well to consider that lower fertility rates correlate with education and hence are not a phenomenon that has anything to do with socialism or Scandinavian geography.

Assume for the moment, however, that he is correct. You point out that some of the Arab countries have a really bad distribution of wealth and income and treat women and animals badly. That is of course the opposite of what socialist Scandinavia does.

You may dislike characteristics of Arab countries--we all do--but those have nothing to do with fertility rates or the motivation behind immigration policy in northern Europe.

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Posted by: Soft Machine ( )
Date: December 05, 2017 05:42AM

In many Americans'(and Phazer's) opinion, most of Europe is socialist, as we have great public services and lower poverty than many places due to our social policies, leading to more peaceful societies.

We like it and wouldn't want to live your way. That's fine. But the stuff about low birth rates is not true: check out "socialist" France's birth rate compared with less"socialist" UK's...

Tom in Paris

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Posted by: Phazer ( )
Date: December 05, 2017 10:47AM

Birthrates of French citizens not associated with migrants from dominant muslim countries is LOWER than the birth rates associated with the mass migration and refugees heading over to France. Some many continue moving on to the UK an other places.


Paris of 2008 is definitely like Paris today.

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Posted by: Soft Machine ( )
Date: December 05, 2017 11:53AM

Oh dear....

You do realize that those muslims are French too, don't you?

I'd be interested where you got your figures from, as ethnic profiling and statistics are illegal in France.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 12/05/2017 12:02PM by Soft Machine.

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Posted by: Lot's Wife ( )
Date: December 05, 2017 02:55PM

They are indeed French citizens.

Ironically, immigrants to the United States who achieved that status used to be considered fully American too. That was one of the shared values that bound our countries so closely together in the 19th and 20th centuries.

It is we who have changed--Max Boot feels like an alien because he's only been here since age 8, judges are suspect because their parents came from another country, African Americans and Native Americans are told to get back in their box.

I wish we still lived by the words on that statue you guys gave us so long ago. That was a strong, expansive, confident country as opposed to the xenophobic and parochial countries that exist here now.

MAGA means something entirely different now than it did a year ago.

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Posted by: Transitioningoutnotloggedin ( )
Date: December 05, 2017 09:48AM

Um nope Pilgrim. You are as clueless as Phazer. How (s)he equates Muslim countries with Socialism is just plain dumb. Others have pointed out the other silly arguments (like low birth rates). Just plain intellectual laziness. You might want to educate yourself.

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Posted by: Phazer ( )
Date: December 05, 2017 10:44AM

Google: Birth Rates Europe vs Islamic countries

5 facts about the Muslim population in Europe
http://www.pewresearch.org/fact-tank/2017/11/29/5-facts-about-the-muslim-population-in-europe/

Migration from Muslim dominant countries is the biggest factor of population change in Europe.

Factoid number 2 says:
By 2050, the share of the continent’s population that is Muslim could more than double, rising to 11.2% or more, depending on how much migration is allowed into Europe. Even in the unlikely event that future migration is permanently halted, the Muslim population still would rise to an estimated 7.4%, due to the relative youth and high fertility rates of Europe’s current Muslim residents.

Factoid number 3 says:

"Muslims are much younger and have more children than other Europeans. In 2016, the median age of Muslims throughout Europe was 30.4, 13 years younger than the median for other Europeans (43.8). Looking at it another way, 50% of all European Muslims are under the age of 30, compared with 32% of non-Muslims in Europe. In addition, the average Muslim woman in Europe is expected to have 2.6 children, a full child more than the average non-Muslim woman (1.6 children). "
===========================

Another result
https://www.washingtontimes.com/news/2017/sep/26/muslim-majority-in-france-projected-in-40-years/

New World Order: Muslims to be majority in Europe within two generations

Within 40 years, given current demographic trends, the white population in France and the rest of old Europe will recede, creating a Muslim majority, a French researcher says.

Charles Gave, an economist, fund manager and political commentator, published his conclusions this month on the webpage of his think tank, Institute des Libertes. He writes of the “disappearance of the European populations” as native populations shrink and Muslims continue to exhibit a robust fertility rate.


Google: Birth Rates of 10 West European countries

Result: How Europe is slowly dying despite an increasing world population ...
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/11414064/How-Europe-is-slowly-dying-despite-an-increasing-world-population.html

Look at the Graphs.

UK has had fastest growing population in Europe for a decade
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/immigration/10927865/UK-has-had-fastest-growing-population-in-Europe-for-a-decade-official-figures.html

Only because of MASS migration. Not birthrates. Who is migrating there -- dominant muslim country citizens from all over the place.

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Posted by: Transitioningoutnotloggedin ( )
Date: December 06, 2017 09:44AM

Yep. Just as I thought. Not able to link it to Socialism.

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Posted by: cludgie ( )
Date: December 05, 2017 03:52PM

you really don't have a clue, do you?

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Posted by: Phazer ( )
Date: December 01, 2017 04:16PM

Socialism is the precursor to Communism. Go visit Cuba and failed state Venezuela.


Socialism in Sweeden, Germany and other Euro countries has let to open border policies. Canada is a nice place to visit but I have no interest drawing a paycheck from there and paying their taxes. Same for Sweeden.

Muslims screw and are repopulating those countries. Many are not assimulating. Refugees are flocking over to the welfare countries.

I hear Medicare is solvent. :-]

Yes, departments and institutions running like socialism isn't the same as the entire country using it.


In any regard -- I though Quinn has a very colorful and nuanced experience in life to then grasp on to Socialism. Maybe it is the lite version.

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Posted by: ificouldhietokolob ( )
Date: December 01, 2017 04:34PM

Phazer Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Socialism is the precursor to Communism. Go visit
> Cuba and failed state Venezuela.

I suggest you go work on learning some things about political/economic systems. Why? Because...wrong.

> Socialism in Sweeden, Germany and other Euro
> countries has let to open border policies.

Again...wrong.
Their border policies have nothing to do with whether or not they're "socialist."

> Canada
> is a nice place to visit but I have no interest
> drawing a paycheck from there and paying their
> taxes. Same for Sweeden.

Good for you.
The Canadians and Swedes don't care what you think.
You do know that, right?

> Muslims screw and are repopulating those
> countries. Many are not assimulating. Refugees are
> flocking over to the welfare countries.

Muslims are the only people who screw?

The "they're going to outpopulate us!" fear is not only statistically fallacious, it's ignorant fear-mongering.

> I hear Medicare is solvent. :-]

It might be if so-called "conservatives" would stop running up huge deficits with their tax cuts for the wealthy. It not being solvent isn't a "socialism" failure, it's a congressional failure.

> Yes, departments and institutions running like
> socialism isn't the same as the entire country
> using it.

They're not "like" socialism. They *are* socialist.
Oh, yeah, I know you think that's a dirty word...but it's not.

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Posted by: Phazer ( )
Date: December 04, 2017 12:20PM

ificouldhietokolob Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Phazer Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > Socialism is the precursor to Communism. Go
> visit
> > Cuba and failed state Venezuela.
>
> I suggest you go work on learning some things
> about political/economic systems. Why?
> Because...wrong.

What does a Marxist say?

"What is the difference between socialism and communism? "

"Socialism and communism are alike in that both are systems of production for use based on public ownership of the means of production and centralized planning. Socialism grows directly out of capitalism; it is the first form of the new society. Communism is a further development or "higher stage" of socialism."

"Socialism is the first step in the process of developing the productive forces to achieve abundance and changing the mental and spiritual outlook of the people. It is the necessary transition stage from capitalism to communism."

http://www.marxmail.org/faq/socialism_and_communism.htm



>
> > Socialism in Sweeden, Germany and other Euro
> > countries has let to open border policies.
>
> Again...wrong.
> Their border policies have nothing to do with
> whether or not they're "socialist."

I'll give you that one. Though, open borders to any yahoo "economic refugee" is a very stupid idea that is causing major economic issues, social service program expenses, and higher crime rates and becoming less poplular among the populations that have to live with the change. It seems just the leaders think it is a good idea.

> > Canada
> > is a nice place to visit but I have no interest
> > drawing a paycheck from there and paying their
> > taxes. Same for Sweeden.
>
> Good for you.
> The Canadians and Swedes don't care what you
> think.
> You do know that, right?

Many people don't care what I or you think. So what.

>
> > Muslims screw and are repopulating those
> > countries. Many are not assimulating. Refugees
> are
> > flocking over to the welfare countries.
>
> Muslims are the only people who screw?

No, but they are screwing more than the current populations. Birthrate all over Europe are pathetic.
>
> The "they're going to outpopulate us!" fear is not
> only statistically fallacious, it's ignorant
> fear-mongering.

Think what you want on this matter. I think I'll believe in the intents of a preaching Imam actually admitting to it than you.

Sheikh Muhammad Ayed gave the speech at the Al-Aqsa Mosque in Jerusalem claiming Europe was only welcoming refugees as a new source of labour.

He said Europe was facing a demographic disaster and urged Muslims to have children with westerners so they could 'trample them underfoot, Allah willing.'


"Birth rates are far higher in the Middle East and Sub-Saharan Africa, which is where most migrants are coming from."

"The notion of using mass migration as a form of stealth jihad is outlined in the Koran, which states, 'And whoever emigrates for the cause of Allah will find on the earth many locations and abundance.'

To move to a new land in order to bring Islam is considered a meritorious act.

Read more: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-3240295/Imam-tells-Muslim-migrants-breed-children-Europeans-conquer-countries-vows-trample-underfoot-Allah-willing.html





>
> > I hear Medicare is solvent. :-]

Sorry pal, but both parties have been drunk at the wheel crashing into whatever. Tax reform stating that a loss of $1.4 Trillion in revenue to U.S. debt over 10 years is laughable.

January, 20 2009 Known debt on the books was $10.6 Trillion. On April 12, 2015 fiscal operating debt was $18.152 Trillion.

Just read the book Plunder and Deceit at the library chapter 2.

The books are cooked.

> It might be if so-called "conservatives" would
> stop running up huge deficits with their tax cuts
> for the wealthy. It not being solvent isn't a
> "socialism" failure, it's a congressional
> failure.
>
> > Yes, departments and institutions running like
> > socialism isn't the same as the entire country
> > using it.
>
> They're not "like" socialism. They *are*
> socialist.
> Oh, yeah, I know you think that's a dirty
> word...but it's not.

Yes I'm aware of programs that are socialist that run in the U.S.

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Posted by: catnip ( )
Date: December 06, 2017 01:47AM

That's why I can't get on the "Medicare for all" bandwagon. There are a lot of things that Medicare does not cover. Glasses, hearing aids, and many dental procedures are among them.

During the 30 years I worked for Social Security, I ALWAYS recommended to my clients who were applying for Medicare that they also get supplemental insurance.

Now that I am on Medicare myself, I have followed my own advice, and I will continue recommending this to anyone within hearing distance. I am a big fan of European-style healthcare for all.

Medicare would have to be significantly revised before I would support it as a form of national healthcare.

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Posted by: Transitioningoutnotloggedin ( )
Date: December 06, 2017 09:46AM

Well this is dumb. Because Medicare doesn't cover everything, let's do without Medicare.

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Posted by: Phazer ( )
Date: December 06, 2017 11:56AM

Medicare could possibly cover more if prices were negotiated and it was defrauded of millions if not billions of dollars ...it seems almost yearly.

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Posted by: Transitioningoutnotloggedin ( )
Date: December 06, 2017 09:48AM

Wow Phazer. You need to study more. You do understand that Communism as espoused by Marx was not Soviet Union style communism don't you?

Get off the right wing idiot sites and study a little. Your other comments are laughable.

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Posted by: Phazer ( )
Date: December 01, 2017 04:21PM

I wonder if Quinn will now have time to read Palmer's articles or new book. Probably not. Only if he is referenced in the footnotes.

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Posted by: Kentish ( )
Date: December 01, 2017 06:07PM

Has socialism failed in countries like Norway, Sweeden, and Denmark? All countries that do a better job taking care of their citizens on issues like healthcare than we do in the US. I think there is a need to learn the difference between socialism and communism.

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Posted by: quinlansolo ( )
Date: December 01, 2017 09:01PM


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Posted by: Lot's Wife ( )
Date: December 01, 2017 09:55PM

Someone might have benefited from a state-sponsored education that instilled knowledge of the difference between "principal" and "principle" and between "there" and "their."

More importantly, socialism does not lead to communism. Nazism was explicitly and substantially socialism. Did Hitler lead to communism? Did he want to? Of course not. There is likewise no reason to believe that today's "socialist" economies are headed for communism. What matters is dictatorships masquerading as communist societies: those are the ones that have failed, and there are very few of them left.

In fact the only school of thought that shares your view that socialism leads to communism is Marxism. Everyone else sees that socialism--state control of the means of production--is precisely the opposite of communism, which posits the withering away of the state and communal ownership of the means of production. So please don't try to foist on us your empirically false Marxist conception of political and economic history.

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Posted by: Phazer ( )
Date: December 04, 2017 12:23PM

It certainly led to fascism. South American leaders definitely loved that.

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Posted by: Lot's Wife ( )
Date: December 05, 2017 05:25AM

Not sure what this post means.

Fascism was a right-wing socialist movement in Italy. Right-wing dictatorships arose in Latin America but they were not really socialist: most of them were crony capitalist. So authoritarian regimes with perhaps Peronist Argentina looking a bit like socialist Italy.

The point, though, is that you are now (correctly) arguing that socialism can lead to, or be associated with, right-wing political movements.

So we've dispensed with the canard that socialism leads to communism? I hope so.

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Posted by: Phazer ( )
Date: December 05, 2017 09:37AM

What does a Marxist say?

"What is the difference between socialism and communism? "

"Socialism and communism are alike in that both are systems of production for use based on public ownership of the means of production and centralized planning. Socialism grows directly out of capitalism; it is the first form of the new society. Communism is a further development or "higher stage" of socialism."

"Socialism is the first step in the process of developing the productive forces to achieve abundance and changing the mental and spiritual outlook of the people. It is the necessary transition stage from capitalism to communism."

http://www.marxmail.org/faq/socialism_and_communism.htm

=======================================

The term "Nazi" refers to a "National Socialist" party


"A gigantic lie was perpetrated by leftist intellectuals and slavishly spread by a sympathetic media – namely, that fascism was a movement of the "far right" and that conservatives were also on "the right." This "Big Lie" has long been a staple of Democratic propaganda ..."

"How did it come to pass that fascism is commonly called 'right-wing'?" To this query The Big Lie provides a detailed response. The leftist historian Richard Hofstadter began this project by linking Social Darwinism in America to capitalism – thus transferring racist eugenics from its progressive spawning ground to the conservative "right." Two Germans émigrés from the Marxist Frankfurt School, Herbert Marcuse and Theodor Adorno, subsequently developed the big lie that fascism wasn't so much a political philosophy as a personality disorder associated with morally repressed conformists and traditional religious folk. In short, fascism became an "authoritarian" neurosis rooted in conservative sentiments.

Read more here: http://www.americanthinker.com/blog/2017/08/are_naziism_and_fascism_really_rightwing_dinesh_dsouzas_the_big_lie_shows_its_not_so.html


South American countries were watching the fascism craze and countries like Argentina and Brazil became places of refugee for the German High ranking Nazis after the war. According to our FBI, they knew that Hitler had survived the war and lived out the rest of his days in South American countries.

Check out Hunting Hitler series on the history channel.

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Posted by: Transitioningoutnotloggedin ( )
Date: December 06, 2017 09:52AM

Um nope. Nazism only started out as Socialism to lull the ignorant that had been devastated by the world wide depression. Once in power, Hitler killed the Socialists and consolidated power from the right. Try studying for once.

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Posted by: Soft Machine ( )
Date: December 05, 2017 05:44AM

Strangely, European people (who lived through fascism) see it as more of a problem derived from capitalism and the right than from socialism and the left.

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Posted by: Phazer ( )
Date: December 05, 2017 09:38AM

Right wing links could just be more propaganda. Check out the book The Big Lie at the library.

http://www.americanthinker.com/blog/2017/08/are_naziism_and_fascism_really_rightwing_dinesh_dsouzas_the_big_lie_shows_its_not_so.html

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Posted by: Soft Machine ( )
Date: December 05, 2017 09:43AM

And now we descend into conspiracy theory.

History has shown, in multiple European countries, that people who were fascists before and during the war ended up overwhelmingly supporting the right wing afterwards.

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Posted by: Phazer ( )
Date: December 05, 2017 10:59AM

Tom,

Do you have any comments on Quinn's new book? Listen to the podcast?

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Posted by: Transitioningoutnotloggedin ( )
Date: December 06, 2017 09:52AM

What a right wing BS world you live in Phazer.

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Posted by: Phazer ( )
Date: December 06, 2017 11:57AM

Make some points because with your noise.

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Posted by: Dave the Atheist ( )
Date: December 01, 2017 11:55PM

What's a "socialist" ?

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Posted by: Phazer ( )
Date: December 04, 2017 12:23PM

Ask Amazon Alexa. ;-)

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Posted by: Phazer ( )
Date: December 04, 2017 12:28PM

Did anyone listen to the podcast want to contribute a comment on Quinn's book?

I think he found that researching the Wealth of the church is probably going to be a multi person research project and the amount of information that could of been compiled wasn't

Quinn needed to get this book out, earn the rest of the pay check and be done with it.

Much of the finaice info wasn't available, and sifting through personal assets of the Q12 and 70s is daunting if obscure.

It sucks, that the G.A. working with Palmer simply didn't ever want to come clean because of financial reasons...even if he was dead. B.S. I kind of hope Palmer did write it down only to be discovered later. We all die so let the truth come out.

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Posted by: Lot's Wife ( )
Date: December 05, 2017 03:09PM

Do any of us have comments on Quinn? We should avoid the socialism attack you launched on him?

No, you brought the personality and political attacks into the debate, Phaser. If you'd wanted to stick with Quinn, you would have avoided the political nonsense.

Nor is it inappropriate to point out that you don't have much understanding of your topics. You have reversed yourself on socialism, saying first that it was related to communism, then that it was related to fascism, and in your latest erroneous citation (Marxmail???) that communism and socialism are virtually identical, which is false. Again, Socialism means the state controls the means of production; communism means there is no state and hence no state control of the means of production. You can cite anybody you want--you like shallow Marxists and you like shallow Conservatives--but neither is going to get you close to the truth.

It really would be good if you took some time to visit Scandinavia, France, Japan, Canada, and other countries that score high on the socialism indicators. They are really nice places. And they are not headed towards communism.

Somebody will start a discussion of Quinn on his own terms, one that doesn't mix in political attacks, and that will be enlightening. My guess is that the general opinion of his work will be as positive as it usually is. Quinn's done a lot of good in the world.

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Posted by: Phazer ( )
Date: December 05, 2017 09:48PM

Lot's Wife Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Do any of us have comments on Quinn?
I guess you dont.

We should
> avoid the socialism attack you launched on him?
>
Launch your missle attacks.

> No, you brought the personality and political
> attacks into the debate, Phaser. If you'd wanted
> to stick with Quinn, you would have avoided the
> political nonsense.

I was surprised he was. After being in army intelligence. His "beef" seems to be with having the existence of poor people in America. The war on poverty has failed. Just another wealth transfer program.

>
> Nor is it inappropriate to point out that you
> don't have much understanding of your topics.

Says you.

You
> have reversed yourself on socialism, saying first
> that it was related to communism, then that it was
> related to fascism, and in your latest erroneous
> citation (Marxmail???) that communism and
> socialism are virtually identical, which is false.

Site the source why the marxist link is incorrect in stating socialism is mid step process to communism.


Socialism: The middle step between capitalism and full-blown communism. The formal definition of socialism is a way of organizing a society in which major industries are owned and controlled by the government rather than by individual people and companies. So the important industries like healthcare, power, communications, transportation, and other industries are owned by the state, but there is private property. Socialism is on far left of the traditional left/right political spectrum

Keywordis Democratic.

Democratic socialism: Social ownership of the means of production, but with a democratically elected government. The formal definition is a political ideology advocating a democratic political system alongside a socialist economic system, involving a combination of political democracy with social ownership of the means of production. The adjective "democratic" is often added to distinguish itself from the Marxist-Leninist brand of socialism, which is widely viewed as being non-democratic. We have many aspects of democratic socialism in the United States today: Public libraries, snow removal, trash pick-up, Medicare, fire protection, police protection, and Social Security are just a handful of examples. Democratic socialism is on the left of the traditional left/right political spectrum.


https://m.dailykos.com/stories/2016/2/7/1479490/-Socialism-fascism-and-other-philosophies-conservatives-don-t-understand

> Again, Socialism means the state controls the
> means of production; communism means there is no
> state and hence no state control of the means of
> production. You can cite anybody you want--you
> like shallow Marxists and you like shallow
> Conservatives--but neither is going to get you
> close to the truth.
>


> It really would be good if you took some time to
> visit Scandinavia, France, Japan, Canada, and
> other countries that score high on the socialism
> indicators. They are really nice places. And
> they are not headed towards communism.

Fortunately they wised up stopped at socialism high taxing systems. Nice to visit but i wont be living there. Now ifthe U.S. tax system changes from global to territorial it could open options.


>
> Somebody will start a discussion of Quinn on his
> own terms, one that doesn't mix in political
> attacks, and that will be enlightening. My guess
> is that the general opinion of his work will be as
> positive as it usually is. Quinn's done a lot of
> good in the world.

So you didnt listen to the podcast or read the book. Goy it.

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Posted by: Lot's Wife ( )
Date: December 06, 2017 03:22AM

Anyone who has been through a decent introductory economics course knows the definitions of socialism, communism, and capitalism. Your "siting" propaganda sources doesn't require a rebuttal.

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Posted by: Phazer ( )
Date: December 06, 2017 12:06PM

Maybe you need a reading comprehension class.

Post a URL link definition that you think does better job. Are you saying the above socialism definition that gave doesn't meet your definition?

Maybe you only like dictionary.com answer

"A theory or system of social organization that advocates the vesting of the ownership and control of the means of production and distribution, of capital, land, etc., in the community as a whole. "

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Posted by: Transitioningoutnotloggedin ( )
Date: December 06, 2017 09:55AM

"The war on poverty has failed"

Try telling that to someone who requires medicaid for child medical care or food stamps to feed their family. It only fails insofar as right wing nut jobs convince us that the dipshit invisible hand will take care of us all.

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Posted by: Phazer ( )
Date: December 06, 2017 12:02PM

Yes it failed. After 50 years of spending the percentage of poor people remains almost unchanged.


http://www.heritage.org/marriage-and-family/commentary/the-war-poverty-50-years-failure

Since then, the taxpayers have spent $22 trillion on Johnson's war. Adjusted for inflation, that's three times the cost of all military wars since the American Revolution.

No real progress.

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Posted by: weeder ( )
Date: December 05, 2017 10:50AM

I believe Phazer needs to go on an observation tour in certain countries in Europe.

Stop listening to capitalistic propaganda and open your mind to some VERY successful socialist programs -- particularly in socialized health care -- America has a LOT to learn (even from the not-so-great system of our northern neighbors).

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Posted by: Phazer ( )
Date: December 05, 2017 11:13AM

Good Idea.

I accept donations through paypal and patreon for my travel fund to explore and find deep meaning in western Euro countries.

I'll promise to stop listening to propaganda while on the trip and write a 1 page paper on the matter.

I'll ask people waiting on medical attention how long they have waited for medicine and or surgery, the quality, and ask if given the chance to fly to U.S. to receive treatment if they would take the offer or continue to wait until their number is called.

I think the biggest improvement U.S. healthcare could do is find a way to make insurance price negotiators a non-profit entity OR to be honest with healthcare prices.

I took two of my kids to the doctor. On was in a minor car minor car accident [not at fault] to get a check up. Accident charge code was $180. Normal rate to see doctor was $91 using health care. Because it was an accident same visit was doubled the price for the same visit. Nothing special in services occurred between the two kids.

Hospitals have a real price list that they make up the prices. An insurance carrier negotiates a lower price deal for the service to report to the boss how much they saved with a contract rate even though the price was fake to begin with.

If the FDA allowed more imports of medicine from Europe to be used in the states could save a lot of money. The politicians continue to pretend that medicine in Europe is "Un-Safe".

Americans are tired of the B.S. and we still don't have a generic for insulin on the market. It's only been around for 80s years. Pharmacies play tricks with their patents, changing things here and there to corner the markets and even use native American reservations sometimes to buy a patent and then lease it out to big pharma. Allergan is an example.

https://gizmodo.com/why-a-drug-company-is-selling-patents-to-a-native-ameri-1803849030

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Posted by: Transitioningoutnotloggedin ( )
Date: December 06, 2017 09:57AM

Funny you bring up insulin when your Orange god just installed the Lilly guy as HHS secretary. You do realize this was the guy that jacked up insulin prices? Try getting an education Phazer.

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Posted by: numbersRus ( )
Date: December 05, 2017 12:02PM

Wish Dehlin would do some editing, anyway...

Someone who really knows something about the Internet and is interested in how some of the GAs got wealthy could do a much better job than Quinn. He seemed to be "bothered" by new info - and just wanted to make a book out of what was supposed to be a long appendix to a book he published more than 10 years ago.

I wanted to know stuff about the real cost of the Mormon Mall, what GAs and their relatives got contracts, how did a ad salesman at the Deseret News become so wealthy?

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Posted by: brigidbarnes ( )
Date: December 06, 2017 12:33AM

I have disabilities that truly render me unable to get a job. If I am kicked off my heath care plan (Expanded Medicaid) or if the gov skimps on paying for prescriptions and treatments, I will die just as sure as if being condemned by a death panel. There are many sick people in this nation who are in the same boat as me. Will anyone notice a Halocaust happening? If those huge tax cuts actually stimulate the economy, great for the people who need jobs and can do them. But people in my situation will be dying like flies. Is this okay with everybody? Are burdens simply meant to be done away with?

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Posted by: steve benson ( )
Date: December 06, 2017 01:53AM

Jesus was a socialist.

"The idea of Christian socialism has a long and proud tradition. As capitalism emerged in the mid-1800s, many of its fiercest critics based their ideas on Jesus’ teachings.

“'No one can serve two masters,' Jesus says in Matthew 6:24. 'Either he will hate the one and love the other, or he will be devoted to the one and despise the other. You cannot serve both God and Money.'

"In Luke 12:15, Jesus says, 'Watch out! Be on your guard against all kinds of greed; a man’s life does not consist in the abundance of his possessions.’

"Jesus not only urged people to be kind to others in their everyday lives. He was also talking about those in government who ruled over others, including the priests who ruled Judea for Rome and the rulers of the Roman empire.

"Pope Leo XIII (1810-1903) — often called the 'workers’ pope' — echoed similar ideas. His 1891 encyclical Rerum Novarum ('On the Condition of Labor') focused attention on the dehumanizing conditions in which many workers labored. He affirmed workers’ rights to just wages, rest, and fair treatment, to form unions, and to strike if necessary. He called on governments to promote a more equal distribution of resources and said, in particular, that the poor 'have a claim to special consideration.' He did not espouse socialism, but his attacks on capitalism for its endorsement of greed, its concentration of wealth, and its mistreatment of workers had a major influence on the emerging socialist movement in Europe and America.

"Francis Bellamy (1855-1931), an American Baptist minister, was a leading Christian socialist. Like Pope Leo, he championed the rights of working people and a more equal distribution of wealth and income, which he believed reflected Jesus’ teachings. In 1891, Bellamy was fired from his Boston pulpit for preaching against the evils of capitalism and describing Jesus as a socialist. But he’s best known as the author of the 'Pledge of Allegiance,' which he wrote in 1892 as an antidote to Gilded Age greed, misguided materialism, and hyper-individualism, reflected in those radical words 'with liberty and justice for all.' (Ironically, Bellamy did not include the words 'under God' in the original Pledge. They were added by Congress in 1953 at the height of the Cold War).

"Many of America’s leading socialists — including labor leader Eugene Debs, settlement house founder Jane Addams, Rev. Walter Rauschenbusch, and Helen Keller — rooted their views in their Christian faith, which became known as 'social gospel.' Indeed, many of the leaders of America’s socialist movement, including Norman Thomas (1884-1968) — who ran for president five times on the Socialist Party ticket and was often called 'America’s conscience' — were Protestant clergy.

"Throughout American history, some of the nation’s most influential activists and thinkers, such as philosopher John Dewey, sociologist W.E.B. DuBois, scientist Albert Einstein, poet Katherine Lee Bates (who wrote 'America the Beautiful'), muckraking writer Upton Sinclair, labor leaders A. Philip Randolph and Walter Reuther, civil rights crusader Martin Luther King, feminists Charlotte Perkins Gilman and Gloria Steinem, Planned Parenthood founder Margaret Sanger, and Dorothy Day (founder of the Catholic Worker movement) embraced democratic socialism.

"In the early 1900s, socialists led the movements for women’s suffrage, child labor laws, consumer protection laws and the progressive income tax. In 1911, Victor Berger, a socialist congressman from Milwaukee, sponsored the first bill to create 'old age pensions.' The bill didn’t get very far, but two decades later, in the midst of the Depression, President Franklin D. Roosevelt persuaded Congress to enact Social Security. Even then, some critics denounced it as un-American. But today, most Americans, even conservatives, believe that Social Security is a good idea. What had once seemed radical has become common sense.

"Much of FDR’s other New Deal legislation — the minimum wage, workers’ right to form unions and public works programs to create jobs for the unemployed — was first espoused by American socialists. Socialists have long pushed for a universal health insurance plan, which helped create the momentum for stepping-stone measures such as Medicare and Medicaid in the 1960s.

"Socialists were in the forefront of the civil rights movement from the founding of the NAACP in 1909 through the Voting Rights Act of 1965.

"King believed that America needed a 'radical redistribution of economic and political power.' In October 1964, he called for a 'gigantic Marshall Plan& for the poor — black and white. Later that year, after he he traveled to Oslo to accept the Nobel Peace Prize, he told friends that the U.S. could learn much from Scandinavian 'democratic socialism.' In fact, he told his staff, 'There must be a better distribution of wealth, and maybe America must move toward a democratic socialism.'

"During the Cold War, many Americans confused democratic socialism with communism. In fact, democratic socialists opposed the totalitarian governments of the Soviet Union, China and their satellites. That’s because democratic socialism is about democracy — giving ordinary people a greater voice in both politics and the workplace.

"Sanders’ version of democratic socialism is akin to what most people around the world call 'social democracy,' which seeks to make capitalism more humane.

"This is why Sanders often said that the U.S. should learn from Sweden, Norway and Denmark — countries with greater equality, a higher standard of living for working families, better schools, free universities, less poverty, a cleaner environment, higher voter turnout, stronger unions, universal health insurance, and a much wider safety net

"Sounds anti-business? Forbes magazine ranked Denmark as the #1 country for business. The United States ranked #18.

"European social democracies put greater emphasis on government enterprise, but even most Americans favor government-run police departments, fire departments, national parks, municipally-owned utilities, local subway systems and public state universities.

"Today’s democratic socialists believe in private enterprise but think it should be subject to rules that guarantee businesses act responsibly. Banks shouldn’t engage in reckless predatory lending. Energy corporations shouldn’t endanger and planet and public health by emitting too much pollution. Companies should be required to guarantee that consumer products (like cars and toys) are safe and that companies pay decent wages and provide safe workplaces.

"Democratic socialism also means reducing the political influence of the super rich and big corporations, increasing taxes of the wealthy to help pay for expanded public services like child care, public transit, and higher education, reducing barriers to voting, and strengthening regulations of business to require them to be more socially responsible in terms of their employees, consumers and the environment. That means a higher minimum wage, paid sick days and paid vacations, and safer workplaces.

"A poll earlier this year found that among Americans under 50, a majority are critical of capitalism. Although the word 'socialism' has often been demonized, public opinion polls show that a vast majority of Americans agree with these ideas. For example, 74% think corporations have too much influence; 73% favor tougher regulation of Wall Street; 60% believe that “our economic system unfairly favors the wealthy;” 85% want an overhaul of our campaign finance system to reduce the influence of money in politics; 58% support breaking up big banks; 79% think the wealthy don’t pay their fair share of taxes; 85% favor paid family leave; 80% of Democrats and half the public support single-payer Medicare for all; 75% of Americans (including 53% of Republicans) support an increase in the federal minimum wage to $12.50, while 63% favor a $15 minimum wage; well over 70% support workers’ rights to unionize; and 92% want a society with far less income disparity.

"There’s a great deal of pent-up demand for a candidate who articulates Americans’ frustrations with the status quo. Trump exploited those frustrations with a campaign based on racism, intolerance, and xenophobia. But a candidate who can channel those frustrations in a way that inspires hope rather than fear can build on the long tradition of Christian socialism and social democracy."

(Source: Author of the above, Peter Dreier, "is professor of politics at Occidental College and author of 'The 100 Greatest Americans of the 20th Century: A Social Justice Hall of Fame' [Nation Books, 2012],'" https://m.huffpost.com/us/entry/13854296)



Edited 3 time(s). Last edit at 12/06/2017 02:35AM by steve benson.

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Posted by: Phazer ( )
Date: December 06, 2017 12:12PM

That last line from huffpo is leftist antif BS talking points.

The tax burden is also very very high in Denmark and Sweeden. U.S. Government hasn't been a very wise spender of money and seems to be defrauded everywhere it goes. So, the idea of being taxed more for quality services seems like hopeless idea because of very poor money management.

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Posted by: steve benson ( )
Date: December 06, 2017 02:28AM

I know this, because he told me so:

http://exmormon.org/phorum/read.php?2,1113656,1113656#msg-1113656



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 12/06/2017 05:05AM by steve benson.

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Posted by: steve benson ( )
Date: December 06, 2017 03:09AM

"Jesus The Socialist: Why Christian Conservatives are Massive Frauds"

"By Charlotte Schnook

"As a scholar of religion, it never fails to amaze me that despite there being over 2,000 Biblical verses in which scripture demands Christians tend to the needs of the poor, I am hard-pressed to find Christians who actually vote with this most imparted teaching. On the contrary, I find zealots who blame the impoverished for their misery, and take delight in the knowledge that such squalor allows their own family to have economic superiority. . . . I have been hard-pressed to find ANY right wing policy which genuinely aided in alleviation of misery which poverty causes, but I find endless promises for continual war & tax cuts for the already wealthy. [Such advcates] are often Christian enough to take away your civil liberties by trying to enforce their INTERPRETIVE ideas on abortion & homosexuality (yes, I said interpretive, because one is hard-pressed to make a SOLID case on these issues, for the Bible is contradictory on them) yet [they are] NOT Christian enough to do the duty Jesus MOST commanded: taking care of the poor. . . . So how is it that the Republican party (and pretty much the Democrats now as well) can claim themselves to be based on 'Christian Values' when the repeatedly violate what Jesus says? And what is it exactly that Jesus did say?

"JESUS ON ECONOMICS:

"In America (and in all capitalist countries), people assume their wealth is their own. It's a bedrock belief, we are taught to admire those who build wealth, attain impressive houses, cars, clothes, and retire early to Florida. We are told by the Christian . . . right wing & conservative left that the wealthy worked hard for their money and deserve to reap the benefits. But the Bible tells us differently.

@Luke 12 displays a Jesus delivering parables of a successful businessman. He is so successful that he cannot find enough room for all of his harvest. So the wealthy business man undertakes a massive building project to protect his wealth and plan an early retirement. The 'Christian' culture of America would say this man is a success, for the man did what we are told to do all the time: expand, invest, and use for personal benefit. So, why does Jesus in his parable consider this an antithesis to success? He instead says God considers this man a !fool' BECAUSE he only used his wealth for his 'own' benefit. Jesus goes on to admonish the selfishness and lack of communalism of the businessman. In ultimate renunciation of the man, Jesus advocates the man should have redistributed his wealth to the poor!

"There are countless Biblical stories that match the evil 'socialist' economic ethic, such as the story of Zacchaeus the Tax Collector, which, so illuminating, is found in Luke 19:1-10: Zacchaeus gives half of his wealth and pays back four times what he has defrauded. He has put his own wealth and honor in jeopardy in order to benefit his neighbors and his community. Additionally, Luke 16 contains the story of Lazarus and the rich man. The rich man eats wonderful food and dresses in the finest clothes. Lazarus sits outside of his gates and waits for the scraps from his table. Both men die. The rich man lands in torment and Lazarus at Abraham's side. The rich man's sin, was ignoring the suffering of the poor. He thought of his wealth as his own and the poverty and suffering of others as having no connection to him. This view of the world lands him in torment. How can anyone read these things and then claim Jesus would back a system that propagates a personal/private view of wealth? Both characters in these stories are punished because they only thought of themselves and their wealth!

"'Blessed are you who are poor, for yours is the Kingdom of God.' - Luke 6:20-26

"'Now listen, you rich people, weep and wail because of the misery that will come upon you. Your wealth will rot, and moths will eat your clothes. For your gold and silver are corroded. Their corrosion will testify against you and eat your flesh like fire. You who have hoarded wealth in the last days!' - James 5:1-3

"'How terrible for you who are rich now, for you have had your easy life and will get no more...' - Luke 6:24

"'But when you give a feast, invite the poor, the maimed, the lame, the blind, and you will be blessed, because they cannot repay you. You will be repaid at the resurrection of the just.' - Luke 14:13-14

"'If someone takes away your coat, let him have your shirt as well...

"'In the temple courts [Jesus] found men selling cattle, sheep and doves and other sitting at tables exchanging money. So he made a whip out of cords, and drove all from the temple area, both sheep and cattle; he scattered the coins of the money changers and overturned their tables.' - John 2:14-15. This story which shows Jesus' rage against what is essentially Corporate Greed, merging money with state & theological power, is also repeated in Matthew 21:12 (summed here essentially): Jesus walks into the temple courtyard and sees how merchants there change money, they have built their business up around what is supposed to be God's temple. Jesus is horrified by the idea that God's home could be profaned with money and the desire to be wealthy, he loses it, making a whip and begins turning over the tables the merchants are trading upon, he drives out the cattle being sold and screams a ton of insults at the people in the courtyard. Jesus was filled with righteous indignation at the idea of Church being involved with business, he was horrified that it could be used as a network for making money.

"Why do [conservatives] not feel even a twinge of this divine rage? Why do they say the liberal idea of keeping church separate from state or economics is demonic, when clearly Jesus himself was of the idea?!?!? How do we rectify this with [their] Christian revulsion to [the] discussion of taking 'In God We
M Trust' off of our money?

"'Watch out! Be on your guard against all kinds of greed; a man's life does not consist in the abundance of his possessions.' - Luke 12-15.

"'Truly, I say unto you, it will be hard for a rich man to enter the kingdom of heaven.' - Matthew 19:23

"'Render therefore unto Caesar the things which are Caesar's; and unto God the things that are God's.' - Matthew 22:21. [Conservatives] would have us believe that paying taxes is a horrific idea, they don't want to pay into social benefits because it violates their 'freedom,' but what of their God's commandment to pay taxes?!?!

"'Give to everyone who begs from you...' - Luke 6:30

"'And I'll say to myself, "You have plenty of good things laid up for many years. Take life easy; eat, drink and be merry." But God said to him, "You fool! This very night your life will be demanded from you. Then who will get what you have prepared for yourself?' This is how it will be with anyone who stores up things for himself but is not rich toward God."' - Luke 12:19-21

"'So in everything, do to others as you would have them do to you.' - Matthew 7:12 or 'Love your neighbor as yourself.' - Matthew 22:39. This is what Jesus said is the sum of his law. Yet, does [Conservative government] policy (or even modern Democrat policy) embody that? Does the person who assigns 18,000 Americans to die a year from lack of health care, 'love his neighbor'? Does the American who back the war for oil and allowed over a million innocent Iraqis to die, 'love his neighbor'? Is a society that doesn't provide free education a display of love for community? Is a society that takes money from the working class to pay for the insane bonuses of wealthy CEOS an act of love for ALL neighbors? Or only an act of love for the rich? And what is it Jesus would say about that?

"'He who oppresses the poor to increase his wealth and he who gives gifts to the rich - both come to poverty.' - Proverbs 22:16

"'If someone takes what is yours, do not ask for it back again...

"'For we brought nothing into the world, and we can take nothing out of it. But if we have food and clothing, we will be content with that. People who want to get rich fall into temptation and a trap and into many foolish and harmful desires that plunge men into ruin and destruction. For the love of money is the root of all evil. Some people, eager for money, have wandered from the faith and pierced themselves with many griefs.' - 1 Timothy 6:7-10

"'All the believers were together and had everything in common. They sold property and possessions to give to anyone who had need....' - Acts 2:44-45

"'But love your enemies, and do them good, and lend, never despairing; and your reward shall be great, and ye shall be sons of the Most High: for he is kind toward the unthankful and evil.' - Luke 6:35

"'Let no man seek his own, but every man another's wealth.' - 1 Corinthians 10:24. That comment REEKS of 'redistribution' that idea that [conservative) Christians LOATHE. If it is such an evil concept, why does the Bible say we should do it? Moreover, the Bible doesn't claim we should do it in favor of the rich, like we did with the bail-outs. On the contrary, it claims we should forgive the debt of the poor and let the rich fund it!

"Take a look at the story about debt in Luke 7:36-50: We find Jesus eating with a Pharisee, who would be an 'elite.' a part of the richest in society. Pharisees often threw banquets to show off their wealth, it was a status display in ancient Jerusalem that gained them honor in the eyes of their peers. The Pharisee invited Jesus, but at the party a sinner woman comes in and begins weeping at his feet, washing them. The Pharisee thinks to himself how Jesus must not be a prophet for the woman is of low class & Jesus, if he had divine powers, should have known so. Jesus understands the man's thoughts and counters them with a parable about who would love a wealthy man that forgave debt more, someone who owed 50 pence or one who owed 500. The answer is of course the one who owed 500 and then a long diatribe begins about how the more sinful or impoverished a person is, the more they love who forgives them. He is sure to point out that the pharisee in no way treated him with the same honor as the woman at his feet, because he did not understand the need of the impoverished.

"Imagine if [conservatives] who pretend to be Christians REALLY acted like one and instead of authoring bailouts used the 700 billion to buy out the debts of the poor who were in foreclosure. How would that affect our society? We are now in a situation where the rich have MORE money and the working class are MORE IN DEBT, to the point where 1 out of 8 Americans is now facing homelessness! How much crime & threat of violent revolution will we be facing in another three years when we continue on this trend of bailing out rich and we reach the projected number of 50% of families facing homelessness? It stands to reason there Jesus deliberately taught us to pray: "Forgive us our debts as we forgive our debtors." I&ts a reiteration of the law God gave to the Jews, the law that was ignored so Jesus had to come. There's a ton of debt theme verses from the Bible, and yet [Those who claim] to embody Christian values say people who advocate giving bailouts to American workers & not American CEOS are 'evil socialists.' So, the question rises: What does Jesus advocating redistribution make him? Are the [conservatives] saying Jesus is a socialist? Or are they implying Jesus is evil? You can't answer that question without revealing . . . conservative[s] . . .
. for what they are: liars!

@In further reassertion, take one simple glance into Matthew 19:21-24: 'Do not store up for yourselves treasures on earth, where moth and rust destroy, and where thieves break in and steal. But store up for yourselves treasures in heaven, where moth and rust do not destroy, and where thieves do not break in and steal. For where your treasure is, there your heart will be also [...] Jesus answered, "If you want to be perfect, go, sell your possessions and give to the poor, and you will have treasure in heaven. Then come, follow me." But when the young man heard that saying, he went away sorrowful; for he had great possessions. Then Jesus said to his disciples, "I tell you the truth, it is hard for a rich man to enter the kingdom of heaven. Again I tell you, it is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle than for a rich man to enter the kingdom of God."'

"Clearly, those who have possessions of value then are not 'perfect.' They are deliberately ignoring Jesus' teachings, because they care more about their wealth than they do their Jesus. Knowing this, . . . conservative[s] . . . really have NO right to call themselves Christian.

"'Then he will say to those on his left, "Depart from me, you who are cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels. For I was hungry and you gave me nothing to eat, I was thirsty and you gave me nothing to drink, I was a stranger and you did not invite me in, I needed clothes and you did not clothe me, I was sick and in prison and you did not look after me." They also will answer, "Lord, when did we see you hungry or thirsty or a stranger or needing clothes or sick or in prison, and did not help you?@ He will reply, "I tell you the truth, whatever you did not do for one of the least among you, you did not do for me."' - Matthew 25:41-45. And so we have Jesus promising to treat . . . conservative[s] EXACTLY how they treated the poor. I may be an atheist but scriptures like this make me WISH this theology was true just so I could see the day of justice.

"'He is conceited and understands nothing. He has an unhealthy interest in controversies and quarrels about words that result in envy, strife, malicious talk, evil suspicions, and constant friction between men of corrupt mind, who have been robbed of the truth and who think that godliness is a means to financial gain.' - 1 Timothy 6:4-5

"And there it is, those who think godliness leads to financial gain do not know the 'truth.' Why does the 700 Club never mention this verse?!?!? Whenever I turn that [expletive deleted] show on I see them claim, 'give to us and god will return your wealth ten fold' (theteby also implying the opposite: the poor are supposedly sinners which is why they have no favor from God). What a [expletive deleted]scam!!!! And these Christians fall for it CONSTANTLY, because they are too [expletive deleted) lazy to read their own Bibles, it's so shameful!

"And this isn't the only such verse which absolutely buries the idea that money does NOT equate to divine favor: 'When Simon saw that the Spirit was given at the laying on of the apostles' hands, he offered them money and said, 'Give me also this ability so that everyone on whom I lay my hands may receive the Holy Spirit.' Peter answered: 'May your money perish with you, because you thought you could buy the gift of God with money!'" - Acts 8:18-20

"'Whoever loves money never has money enough; whoever loves wealth is never satisfied with his income. This too is meaningless.' - Ecclesiastes 5:10

"And, finally (at least for this essay because there are thousands more of such stories in the Bible), we have Matthew 27:3-8, which really encapsulates Jesus' life & teachings on money. Judas had told the where abouts of Jesus to the Roman soldiers for a measly 30 [pieces of] silver. When the Romans condemned Christ, Judas had a fit of remorse and, trying to at least do SOMETHING positive out of the terrible fiasco, . . . he sought out the priests and tried to give them the 30 [pieces of] silver. But not even the corrupt priests, who Jesus was always screaming at, would take the money because it was dirty. So, Judas, out of sheer desperation, threw it on the ground and ran off to hang himself. The priests, knowing they could do nothing with the money related to their church but knowing they had to do SOMETHING of Christ's teachings with it, bought a plot for poor foreigners to be buried at. And what is it I see in this story? That even Judas, the biggest betrayer in all of history, didn't lack the apathy to see he spilled innocent blood. Yet, Christians have that apathy all the time. The [conservative] American Christian feels nothing about the fact that for every 6 Americans, a human being has to die to support their wealth. We are only 5% of the human population and we consume 40% of the world's resources. Take, for instance, how many people starve to death in Indonesia because we move our corporations there in hopes of paying slave labor so we can get cheaper prices at Walmart. We live in a world where 34,000 children die EVERY DAY from starvation. Judas had the morality to kill himself for the blood money he took, American [conservative] Christians ask for more coin & more blood. And this is why I say that if Jesus were to come back, he'd be called a communist and assassinated again by the cheering right & conservative left. . . .

"The honest Christian HAS to admit that Jesus was a liberal. The word is defined by an having an open mind, by seeking to 'liberate! beyond the status quo. Jesus abandoned the orthodox rules of the Jews, he admonished [against] the status quo of economic and political hierarchy. He rejected greed. He often admonished [against] violence. He hated the glorification of power, despised the amassing of wealth and hated social injustice. Jesus spoke against the personal judging of others. He repeatedly asked his followers to live a life based on ethics that, for his time, were absolutely revolutionary concerning compassion, love, tolerance and generosity. Jesus was against those who wanted to &conserve' things as they were, and its amazing to me that 2,000 years after he supposedly lived, those who claim to be his beloved still try to conserve the capitalist system which they KNOW is responsible for so much poverty & repression. If someone wants to be a capitalist, that's fine, but I won't hear from them how they are simultaneously a Christian, because, 'No one can serve two masters. Either he will hate the one and love the other, or he will be devoted to the one and despise the other. You cannot serve both God and Money.' (Matthew 6:24)."



Edited 5 time(s). Last edit at 12/06/2017 05:00AM by steve benson.

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