He was embarrassed by Operation Seagull in the 1950s. It was a major law enforcement operation intended to curb the spread and abuses in the mormon fundamentalist polygamous groups. Until then, many members didn't realize how widespread plural marriage was even when their own ward members practiced it. But the news started to highlight the raids and arrests which embarrassed church leaders and members. There were a couple of major articles with photos in national magazines of that time. Outsiders were shocked that this was going on in modern America.

David O. met with civil officials and promised to stamp out the practice of plural marriage if they would leave it to him and back off. He said the church would weed out offenders and force them to repent of their ways. They'd have to
be baptized again and live with only one wife or suffer excommunication which would mean public humiliation and losing all respect of their friends, customers, employers and neighbors. In other words they'd be completely ruined and driven out.

What David O. actually did was to add one more question to the list for obtaining a temple recommend. It's the one about associating with apostates. Anyone who answered yes had to explain and be counseled which was an inconvenience. Very few polygamists were excommunicated unless they were too obvious to ignore.

My family's plyg ties were overlooked because we lied and covered up.

My conclusion is that David O. McKay was a liar who cared more about image than protecting the victims of a practice his church started and still believed. He covered up as much of the embarrassment as possible and went right on with his friendly easy going ways, accepting adoration from his followers and reassuring civil authorities that polygamy was waning and almost gone.

The reality is that mormon polygamy has grown faster than the mainstream church. There are now more and bigger groups and not much is done about it. Many people in and out of Utah claim that these people have a right to marry little brainwashed minor children because we have to respect religion.

After having two or more kiddies most of the wives are absorbed into the culture with no way out and no concept of life beyond being barefoot and pregnant. Many don't know how to drive a car or ride a bus. Some can't read well or do basic math. Many are frightened of outsiders and the scary things they see on trips outside their compounds.

Those who say all adults should have whatever kind of group marriage they care to try are missing the point. Being indoctrinated from birth and in a forced marriage as a child means they can't deal with a normal life style. They're stuck. And they have many children to worry about with no way to support them on their own.

What should be done?

Stop worshiping David O. McKay for letting members have dances and road shows when what he needed to do was to keep his word and stop the heartache still going on in mormon splinter groups throughout the West.

If the mormon church didn't protect this practice it would not continue to grow. They started it, still support it and still plan to live it either now or in heaven. There are still polygamous members attending regular ward. There are still polygamous families and groups next door to stake houses or selling their products to the mainstream church. My polygamous brother in the Allred group traveled far and wide installing upgraded windows in mormon ward houses.

I know people like to say I'm mean for my stand on this issue. Well, let them. I'd rather be called mean than let more generations of victims waste their lives in such an evil cause.

There must be a secret handbook that a secret cabal of cult leaders use
And in it, chapter one is "Create oppressive lifestyles and establish 2 generations practicing it"
Because once that second generation gets going in it, you can't stop it. They will never let it go.
Fact is, I don't know if McKay could have stopped it. It was too established within folks' family traditions by then. The sick tradition had been deeply established for at least 3 or 4 generations by the time McKay was the big cheese.
What he could have done to reduce harm, or do some good, I'm not sure

"Create oppressive lifestyles and establish 2 generations practicing it"

This is true. A modern example is $cientology.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 11/30/2017 04:06PM by Soft Machine.

For all his folksy, Kentucky fried chicken charm, he put the organization ahead of the members. We were there for the GA's benefit, rather than the way it should have been.

He went along with Moyle and let the financials become secret and he didn't want to rock the boat by admitting the Black Curse was bullshit.

The most famous thing he said, in my mind, I took for wisdom, when in fact, it was murder most foul: "What'er thou art, act well thy part.", which I took as advice for being a good spokesman (missionary) for the church: pretend you were what you wanted to be.

He and the GAs turned it around and pretended to have our best interests at heart... The liars!

Don't forget he also stole the "No other success…" quote. I bet just about every Mormon alive thinks that line was original to him.

http://exmormon.org/phorum/read.php?2,409933

'For all his folksy, Kentucky fried chicken charm'

That has to be the best line that I have EVER read on here!!!

You should get a gold medal...........

McKay was known for his easy going, loving nature.

I did not know he was an enabler for the polyg families in and around Utah during his reign as president of the cult.

He wore the facade well.

Amyjo Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> McKay was known for his easy going, loving nature.
>
>
> I did not know he was an enabler for the polyg
> families in and around Utah during his reign as
> president of the cult.
>
> He wore the facade well.


From JS and BY until Nelson, they've ALL worn their facades well.
Every child molestor in the church wore his facade well.
Any every TBM wears their facades well.



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 10/13/2018 09:54AM by lisadee.

Either it never occurred to McKay that polys would lie about being polygs, or he didn't care.

Your post seems to clearly indicate the latter.
And the reasons for it.

Another "leader" putting the church's "image" far above the harm being done to real, live people.

Ugh.

I agree. Hell, he was far from the last to allow road shows and
dances. beyond that, didn't McKay more or less set the wheels in motion for the priesthood correlation program, which indirectly led to all sorts of micromanagement to express it mildly?

Cheryl Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> He was embarrassed by Operation Seagull in the
> 1950s. It was a major law enforcement operation
> intended to curb the spread and abuses in the
> mormon fundamentalist polygamous groups. Until
> then, many members didn't realize how widespread
> plural marriage was even when their own ward
> members practiced it. But the news started to
> highlight the raids and arrests which embarrassed
> church leaders and members. There were a couple of
> major articles with photos in national magazines
> of that time. Outsiders were shocked that this was
> going on in modern America.
>
> David O. met with civil officials and promised to
> stamp out the practice of plural marriage if they
> would leave it to him and back off. He said the
> church would weed out offenders and force them to
> repent of their ways. They'd have to
> be baptized again and live with only one wife or
> suffer excommunication which would mean public
> humiliation and losing all respect of their
> friends, customers, employers and neighbors. In
> other words they'd be completely ruined and driven
> out.
>
> What David O. actually did was to add one more
> question to the list for obtaining a temple
> recommend. It's the one about associating with
> apostates. Anyone who answered yes had to explain
> and be counseled which was an inconvenience. Very
> few polygamists were excommunicated unless they
> were too obvious to ignore.
>
> My family's plyg ties were overlooked because we
> lied and covered up.
>
> My conclusion is that David O. McKay was a liar
> who cared more about image than protecting the
> victims of a practice his church started and still
> believed. He covered up as much of the
> embarrassment as possible and went right on with
> his friendly easy going ways, accepting adoration
> from his followers and reassuring civil
> authorities that polygamy was waning and almost
> gone.
>
> The reality is that mormon polygamy has grown
> faster than the mainstream church. There are now
> more and bigger groups and not much is done about
> it. Many people in and out of Utah claim that
> these people have a right to marry little
> brainwashed minor children because we have to
> respect religion.
>
> After having two or more kiddies most of the wives
> are absorbed into the culture with no way out and
> no concept of life beyond being barefoot and
> pregnant. Many don't know how to drive a car or
> ride a bus. Some can't read well or do basic math.
> Many are frightened of outsiders and the scary
> things they see on trips outside their compounds.
>
>
> Those who say all adults should have whatever kind
> of group marriage they care to try are missing the
> point. Being indoctrinated from birth and in a
> forced marriage as a child means they can't deal
> with a normal life style. They're stuck. And they
> have many children to worry about with no way to
> support them on their own.
>
> What should be done?
>
> Stop worshiping David O. McKay for letting members
> have dances and road shows when what he needed to
> do was to keep his word and stop the heartache
> still going on in mormon splinter groups
> throughout the West.
>
> If the mormon church didn't protect this practice
> it would not continue to grow. They started it,
> still support it and still plan to live it either
> now or in heaven. There are still polygamous
> members attending regular ward. There are still
> polygamous families and groups next door to stake
> houses or selling their products to the mainstream
> church. My polygamous brother in the Allred group
> traveled far and wide installing upgraded windows
> in mormon ward houses.
>
> I know people like to say I'm mean for my stand on
> this issue. Well, let them. I'd rather be called
> mean than let more generations of victims waste
> their lives in such an evil cause.

Yes, the new correlation program was announced at the first closed wire priesthood meeting I attended as a new deacon.

That woulda been in 1962 or thereabouts.

I thought it was some kinda cool new revelation.

I had no idea that it actually was the death knell of the remaining few things that were cool about being a Mormon.

I actually have great respect for David O. McKay.

To each his own.

To each his own.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 11/30/2017 08:13PM by Cheryl.

Aren't you the one who keeps telling people not to assume what's in the mind of other posters?

And saying that McKay did some good things does not constitute "worship" of him.

Back when I wrote this post in 2017, I explained how David O. McKay personally impacted my life in a bad way.

That's my right. Don't like it? So what?

You have good motives? What are they? Explain them or shut up.

Thanks for posting. It gives a new and more in depth perspective of David O.

I could take a swipe here at Gregory Prince, but I won't.

McKay was no different than those before or those after him. Indeed, all of the FP, Q12 and Q70 are just defenders of the faith - meaning defend the church at all costs. Keep the thing moving along. The organism known as the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints is all that matters.

Individuals are and have always been expendable.

the changes needed too set Mormonism right are too well embedded in the current paradigm to allow any significant change for the good of the rank & file without a MAJOR schism.

In case you're interested, see my post on the Mr. Nelson thread.

FYI / btw, he's been dead for 48 years...



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 10/12/2018 10:02PM by GNPE.

He was of that generation that saw their admired "leaders" having to hide their wives, pretend that they weren't practicing when they were and all of that. He probably never grew out of the attitudes that he formed then.

(((((((((((Cheryl)))))))))))

He was president of TSCC when I was a child. To me he represented a beloved, jolly old soul. With his wavy mop of white hair, his infectious smile, his cheerful wife.

He was the "down-to-earth" prophet we were taught, whose wife played bridge (it was against the rules, remember?)

He was also the one who surrounded himself with pathological liars such as Paul H. Dunn, et al. We just didn't know any better back then.

The cult was still in its birthing pains IMO. Before TSHTF as the church history began to disseminate beyond its cloistered halls. Being a Mormon child in the 1960's was sort of the "age of Innocence." Not anymore!

I won't go into my personal connections to the polygamists (that includes some very current relationships I won't disclose because I wouldn't be the one exposed to harm). Too, there's my own ancestry (my g-grandmother, who died in 1965, was a horribly damaged woman whose children "bore her scars" and the dysfunction persisted), but I'll stick with my own experiences as a "technical Nevermo" raised in Salt Lake:

McKay died when I was in high school, and one LDS French teacher I really liked was genuinely moved. That's part of the "cult of personality" in the church, and JFS who succeeded him was far worse even though his statements about evolution (McKay certainly "believed" in it) actually "saved me" from getting dunked (the ward missionaries were putting pressure on my parents to have me "listen to the discussions" when I was 14, and I said, "no"). That was roughly at the same time I earned my Eagle Scout award--as a non-Mormon--and with the "Board of Review," I spent a good hour or so being grilled on my own beliefs (I was definitely an atheist; I'm not these days), and cooler heads prevailed (they went so far as to question the credentials of one of my merit badge counselors, a very sharp PhD biologist).

To indulge in a bit of philosophy, years ago I recall watching a program featuring Ram Dass and a story he told about the Dali Lama: He said they asked the great man if he was angry at the Chinese, and he replied, "That wouldn't be functional, would it?"

Ram Dass replied, "That's pretty 'conscious,' isn't it?"



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 10/14/2018 07:10AM by SL Cabbie.

Cheryl Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------


> What David O. actually did was to add one more
> question to the list for obtaining a temple
> recommend.

one more hurdle or threshold to clear in a deal that is an utter FARCE/TRAVESTY to begin with, considering that the founder of MORmONISM -PERVERT Joe Smith Jr of Palmyra would do far more to set himself up to be excommed IF THE (MORmON) cult operated with any real consistency / any real decency/ any real principle, as Joe honestly answered the original TR questions (IF he could stop lying) far more than qualifying himself as virtuous enough to be entitled to enter the MORmON temple.


> It's the one about associating with
> apostates. Anyone who answered yes had to explain
> and be counseled which was an inconvenience. Very
> few polygamists were excommunicated unless they
> were too obvious to ignore.
>
> My family's plyg ties were overlooked because we
> lied and covered up.

Lying and cover up -a MORmON specialty going back to Joe Smith Jr and the 1820's !!!!!



> My conclusion is that David O. McKay was a liar
> who cared more about image than protecting the
> victims of a practice his church started and still
> believed. He covered up as much of the
> embarrassment as possible and went right on with
> his friendly easy going ways, accepting adoration
> from his followers and reassuring civil
> authorities that polygamy was waning and almost
> gone.

you are attempting to define and distinguish David McKay but what you said could define just about any one of the Crooked deceitful MORmON PR-of-its !!!


> The reality is that mormon polygamy has grown
> faster than the mainstream church.

The Reality is that MORmON "polygamy" / (really) institutional sexual debauchery is a taint that MORmONISM will NEVER be free from. MORmON Jesus should have thought about that before He insisted that PERVERT Joe implement it, either that or MORmON Jesus really was more concerned with implementing Perversion (doing evil) than actually re establishing His church that was hijacked by Satan while MORmON Jesus was AWOL for so may centuries (according to the MORmON narrative), either way MORmON Jesus he looks like a real dumb ass / MORmON / hardly some one to follow / emulate.


> There are now
> more and bigger groups and not much is done about
> it. Many people in and out of Utah claim that
> these people have a right to marry little
> brainwashed minor children because we have to
> respect religion.


Only people with shoddy morals and broken integrity would make such claims.


> After having two or more kiddies most of the wives
> are absorbed into the culture with no way out and
> no concept of life beyond being barefoot and
> pregnant.

.....sounds a lot like mainstream MORmONISM !!!!

> Many don't know how to drive a car or
> ride a bus. Some can't read well or do basic math.
> Many are frightened of outsiders and the scary
> things they see on trips outside their compounds.
>
>
> Those who say all adults should have whatever kind
> of group marriage they care to try are missing the
> point. Being indoctrinated from birth and in a
> forced marriage as a child means they can't deal
> with a normal life style. They're stuck.

you see, whether its with "MORmON polygamy" or some other dimwitted detrimental cultist practice, MORmONISM has a plethora of ways to mess people up !!!!


> And they
> have many children to worry about with no way to
> support them on their own.
>
> What should be done?

Something besides applying MORmON based and administered "solutions" (avoidance/ cover up/ LIES ) to the problem!!!!




> Stop worshiping David O. McKay for letting members
> have dances and road shows

you mean the local social activities that have been eliminated by more current executive MORmON leadership ala LDS inc correlation ?

yah, uhhhhhhh, Its NOT likely that many MORmON members are currently worshiping David O. McKay over the David O. McKay provided (fun time) programs that have been gone for over 3 decades/ that no longer exist.


> when what he needed to
> do was to keep his word

that is expecting an AWFUL LOT from a MORmON leader !!!!

> and stop the heartache
> still going on in mormon splinter groups
> throughout the West.

MORmON polygamy was a wildfire that PERVERT Joe Smith started and then it could not be put out by ANY ONE inside of MORmONISM.


> If the mormon church didn't protect this practice
> it would not continue to grow. They started it,
> still support it and still plan to live it either
> now or in heaven. There are still polygamous
> members attending regular ward.

The Current LD$ Inc CEO/ MORmON President / MORmON PRofit/ is a practicing polygamist

> There are still
> polygamous families

.......There are still MORmON polygamists RUNNING the Mainstream MORmON church, *EVEN* most currently !!!!!!! see Russell Nelson and the TWO eternal brides that are sealed to PRofit Russell Nelson. By MORmON doctUrine / convention, BOTH of Nelson's temple sealed brides are STILL his wives beyond death and FOREVER!!! By MORmON doctUrine /convention MORmON secret handshake marriages are still in force regardless of death !!!! Remember how THAT is one of MORmONISM big selling points !!!! P


you say that you hate David O. McKay over MORmON polygamy, but it sounds like you detest ( the evil known as) MORmON polygamy which runs right through MORmONISM clear back to the origins of MORmONISM ! Which means you probably really despise MORmONISM back to its start, and probably will forever, which is an appropriate response to such evil.


.....my comments should in NO way be construed any kind of a defense of detestable David O. McKay, who as a MORmON PRofit is a veritably detestable figure ......just like ALL the other leaders of the UTTERLY CORRUPT MORmON "church" /cult scam !!

I ascribe your particular loathing of David O. McKay to your being contemporary to him in life / mortality. I dare say that you would detest Joseph Smith or Brigham Young EVEN more, had you actually known them/ been subjected to them / lived contemporary to them with in MORmONISM.

Detest David O. McKay ALL that you want to, but it simply is NOT possible to play McKay off as more corrupt and or more detestable than disgusting PervertJoe Smith or Despot Tyrant Brigham Young. I am saying that as a person who had their spouse decide that they needed to start practicing polygamy in the interest of attempting MORmON Jesus to make His grand return with the advent of Y2K, so MORmON "polygamy" has been plenty costly to me personally .....but ultimately it is my OWN FAULT, because when I went through the MORmON temple right before my FOOL time mission, I should have taken off those stupid temple garments right after the endowment session in the temple dressing room. As soon as we made it out of the MORmON temple into the Temple parking, I should have said: "what the Hell was that insane BS ???" and thrown those GD garments right into the face of my resident MORmON enforcement agent (crappy) male parent. Sure, I would have been kicked out of the house as a teen ager for that defiant action and spitefully forced to find a new residence and to support myself, but it would have been an EPIC great move for myself in the long run in spite of the immediate hardship.

You go ahead in loathing David O. McKay. I loathe capt.@$$HOLE -my MORmON enforcement agent male parent and my DUMB ASS faithFOOL MORmON maternal grandfather, Both that I extended FAR TOO MUCH dignity and respect to, far more than they EVER deserved to my utter detriment for my (unqualified) respect to them. That is where the EVIL known as MORmONISM hit way too close to home with/ for me.

I had to regularly stand in front of her and practice the lies I would tell the neighbors and the bishop. If I mumbled or said a word unconvincingly, I'd get a beating. I was the first in my family to get a temple recommend with David O.'s new question by telling those lies. Yes, it was for dead dunking but it was still a scary experience as an eleven year old because my family would blame me if the bishop didn't believe the lies about harboring polygamists on our farm and holding their secret meetings in our living room.

You can write your counter arguments and make whatever claims against me you choose. But you weren't there. You didn't have an old prophet-man leering at you whenever you stepped out of your house or had to pass his trailer. You can be as academic and judgmental as you choose.

But at the same time, I have a right to my own conclusions and feelings. I have nothing to gain from trying to please you or that Jerry person who claims I'm the one who brought up the subject of motives when I made a modest comment about Concrete Zipper's ruling on the subject.

As far as I'm concerned, this thread is closed. If anyone wants to delve into it further they can read my biographical novel on the subject, Plural Bride to Be, free on the main page of RfM or get it on Amazon or Kindle.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 10/13/2018 03:23PM by Cheryl.

Cheryl Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> I had to regularly stand in front of her and
> practice the lies I would tell the neighbors and
> the bishop. If I mumbled or said a word
> unconvincingly, I'd get a beating.

I do NOT doubt you on that count in the least.


> I was the first
> in my family to get a temple recommend with David
> O.'s new question by telling those lies. Yes, it
> was for dead dunking but it was still a scary
> experience as an eleven year old because my family
> would blame me if the bishop didn't believe the
> lies about harboring polygamists on our farm and
> holding their secret meetings in our living room.

I do NOT doubt you on that count, or any other personal account, in the least.


> You can write your counter arguments and make
> whatever claims against me you choose.

In reality, I am NOT saying anything "against" you, or your personal sentiments about D.O.McKay

I do take exception with the notion that any substantial segment of current mainstream MORmONS are currently engaged in a dominating love fest for David O McKay as in having some particular "worshiping" of David O McKay, that is particularly influencing or effecting LD$ inc MORmON policy or MORmON fundamentalist activity at this point in time. In that regard, you might be on the verge of attempting to speak for them / for those others, and such a message might NOT be entirely correct. Simply put, you are giving those MORmONS way too much credit because they are just NOT that bright!!!!! I will explain in a second.


I do take exception with the notion that any substantial segment of mainstream MORmONISM is currently engaged in a dominating love fest for David O McKay as in having particular "worshiping" of David O McKay. ......However, I do know of certain ex MORmONS on this very board who are attempting something very much like what have described in some misguided attempt to assert their academic and intellectual prowess. They have (errantly) asserted that THE (MORmON) church was somehow notably more benevolent and more tolerant and more pleasant under McKay's tenure than it is now.
(UTTER BS !!!!) They and I clashed as I told them that they were (quite) incorrect. I was alive under McKay's tenure as LD$ Inc MORmON PR-of-it, and I remember very well how rigid and stifling that THE (MORmON) Church really was back then ....IF their seeming love fest for McKay is the thing that prompted the statement of your VERY VALID negative sentiments relative to David O McKay and MORmONISM in the 1960's, THEN YOU AND I ARE VERY MUCH ON THE SAME SIDE !!!!!

Like you, I lived under McKay's reign, and It was NOT the Bed of Roses period of MORmONISM that others have (so errantly) attempted to suggest. I would assert that those particular others did NOT live under McKay's reign of MORmONISM, or else they would (should) know better!!!!

You are saying that David O McKay especially sucks for you. I am totally OK with that !!!!! IN FACT, I CONCUR !!!!

I am also saying that ALL of the MORmON prophets have sucked in a big way, and that David O McKay would NOT have been able to suck for you or anyone else, IF Joseph SMith and Brigham Young would NOT have sucked in a very big MORmON (polygamist) way FIRST. That is the part of me that pushes me to connect dots and to look at the big picture, which propelled me right out of MORmONISM.

As well, even as thoroughly disgusting and problematic as David O. McKay's de facto defense of MORmON polygamy may have been, David O. McKay did NOT actually personally (sexually) plunder any teen age females himself ( that we know of), even as past MORmON cult leaders definitely DID as they established that pattern of debauchery with in MORmONISM. Even so, I think that I understand your particular personal frustration with McKay, because a prophet SHOULD be a moral vanguard that protects the vulnerable (like you were) , and McKay was the actual one who in the role as a supposed prophet (protector) SHOULD have been YOUR protector, *even* as McKay miserably FAILED at the task /assignment as McKay put maintaining THE PR standing of his THE (MORmON) church ahead of your personal well being Even as McKay was NOT personally acquainted with you, which is exactly the same hideous rotten thing that my MORmON grandparent and MORmON parent did to me even as they were intimately acquainted with me, hence my subsequent mention and condemnation of my MORmON family members. .....I notice that you also arrived at a point where you end up mentioning family members MORmONIC complicity in preserving MORmON PR image and ideals to the exclusion of other concerns like your personal well being which should have been given far more consideration (!!!!!).

You are saying that David O. McKay STILL especially sucks for you, because of his failure to repudiate MORmON polygamy, and that MORmON polygamy would not exist today IF it was not for McKay's failure to thoroughly denounce it. I am saying that once a person starts down that road it does NOT end until that road goes back to MORmON Joe and MORmON Brigham.

You are saying that David O. McKay STILL especially sucks for you. MAJOR CONCESSION: It is not in my ability to demonstrate that is not so for you. Please Note: I never made such an assertion!!!!!


I am saying that is NOT the case currently for most MORmONS, as most MORmONS do NOT have the good sense or capable enough memory to connect the dots (back past two weeks) to show how damned corrupt and inconsistent that MORmONISM really is, which goes a long way in explaining why they are STILL MORmONS!!! Remembering and connecting those dots is a capability that you DO have. Which goes a long ways toward explaining why you are NO longer part of the MORmON flock.

Back to your original (basic) point: David O. McKay actually sucks!!!! so contrary to what certain others might attempt to suggest, as in McKay was NOT really some pleasant benevolent reassuring protective inspired and inspiring figure (as he was supposed to be) when things are completely factored out. McKay was really a self interest schmuck who perpetuated MORmON based evil. ....Thanks for the reminder. I am compelled to agree with you (because I can remember things beyond two weeks ago) !!!! Thanks for being on my side !!! McKay sucks !!!!

A wise man once said, "I might have thought that smirkorama and anon the great were the same person, but he/she never used the word 'assumptions'."

If you want to attack me, do so by name. Opting for this sort of innuendo risks coming across as craven--which must be a mistaken impression.

I would note that you don't know me from Eve, and you don't know if I was alive or not during the McKay years. Nor, apparently, do you recall my argument about the man. So calm down, take a deep breath, and stop beating your poor keyboard!!!!



Edited 3 time(s). Last edit at 10/14/2018 05:20AM by Lot's Wife.