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Posted by: Anon for this one ( )
Date: November 13, 2017 08:34PM

Bishop said the following,"In Jewish culture, A woman that has lots of sons is prized above all other women. So today I want to publicly thank my wife for giving me 8 sons." This sexist bullshit is killing me. Sitting in these meetings with my daughters is killing me.

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Posted by: ificouldhietokolob ( )
Date: November 13, 2017 09:00PM

Might want to tell this bishop that women have XX chromosomes, and so play no part whatsoever in determining the sex of children (intentional or otherwise).

Ahh, never mind. Don't let facts get in the way of an ignorant misogynist rant: Yes, I have sons! Not worthless daughters, valuable sons! What an ass.

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Posted by: Nightingale ( )
Date: November 15, 2017 09:29PM

His big excuse for killing a couple of his wives was them not bearing him sons. Or if they did, the babies died and the one son who lived longer still died young, iirc.

I love love love it that Henry's daughter, from the first wife he murdered, became Queen, as did strong women after her as well.

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Posted by: sunbeep ( )
Date: November 13, 2017 09:08PM

He is elevating himself by putting others down, plus it's ingrained in the morgladite brain that men and boys are superior. You might point out to him the inequality, but, oh gawd, he wouldn't hear the words of your mouth.

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Posted by: SoCal Apostate ( )
Date: November 14, 2017 12:34PM

Thank you for expanding the lexicon. "Morgladite" has a nice sound to it.

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Posted by: Tevai ( )
Date: November 13, 2017 09:11PM

I just skimmed through Jewish history (contemporary history back to ancient times), as it relates to women, and I cannot find any reference to anything like this ("...a woman that has lots of sons is prized above all other women").

On the contrary, I cannot find any reference from any source which differentiates between the genders of any Jewish woman's offspring. It is a non-issue from medieval times forward, and was probably a non-issue in ancient times as well.

Here is what IS valued about a woman in Judaism. It is Proverbs 31 (familiarly known to Jews as "A Woman of Valor," and in observant households especially, is sung or said by a man to his wife on special occasions (either religious holidays, or her birthday, etc.)...is often quoted...and often hangs on the walls in Jewish homes to constantly "say": "This, my wife or my mother, is what we, your family, think of YOU."...


A woman of valor, who can find?
Her worth is far above jewels.
The heart of her husband trusts in her, and nothing shall he lack.
She renders him good and not evil all the days of her life.
She opens her hand to the needy, and extends her hand to the poor.
She is robed in strength and dignity, and cheerfully faces whatever may come.
She opens her mouth with wisdom.
Her tongue is guided by kindness.
She tends to the affairs of her household, and eats not the bread of idleness.
Her children come forward and bless her.
Her husband too, and he praises her.
Many women have done superbly, but you surpass them all.
Charm is deceitful, and beauty is vain, but a God-fearing woman is much to be praised.
Place before her the fruit of her hands.
Wherever people gather, her deeds speak her praise.

In my skimming through history, there IS a reference to women having "lots of sons," but it is to Afghani culture, and the practice there of raising daughters as sons, if the woman has not produced "enough" sons. Afghani culture is, however, basically a polar opposite to Jewish culture.



Edited 5 time(s). Last edit at 11/13/2017 09:19PM by Tevai.

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Posted by: anonob ( )
Date: November 14, 2017 06:47PM

Don’t Jewish men recite a prayer thanking God for not making them women?

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Posted by: Tevai ( )
Date: November 15, 2017 09:22PM

anonob Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Don’t Jewish men recite a prayer thanking God
> for not making them women?

Yes, this ("Shelo Asani Isha," in Hebrew: "Blessed are you, Lord...for not making me a woman"), is part of the morning prayers which are prayed mostly by male Orthodox Jews (plus non-Orthodox Jews of both genders who are there for morning prayers in order for them to say Kaddish, usually for a deceased parent).

The apologetics are that this blessing is recited by men as acknowledgement that the woman's role in Jewish life is much more difficult, exhausting, and protracted, while she receives far less in the way of spoken gratitude or public acknowledgement than does a male. (Female Jews, at this same juncture in the morning prayers, say: "Blessed are you, Lord...for making me according to your will.")

This has become a contentious issue in Orthodox/observant Judaism (including among Chabadniks, who are one of the ultra-Orthodox sects)...it is being actively discussed...and "work arounds" are being tried out. Chabad itself mentions that if a blessing is morally objectionable and Halacha [Jewish law] permits its omission, then maybe...

I saw an observantly Jewish headline which said: "Say Lo! to Shelo Asani Isha." ["Lo" means "No" in Hebrew.]

This is a prayer which has come down from ancient times.

Jews across the spectrum are questioning the validity of its place within the morning prayers.

Orthodox Jews (and, in addition, many of those further right on the Jewish spectrum) are questioning its validity in the twenty-first century, and are (in some cases) experimenting with "work arounds," with the explicit, "out loud" acknowledgement that it may be time to relegate this particular blessing to past history.

Which means, most likely: the time remaining, for this blessing within the morning prayers, is probably quite limited.

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Posted by: anonob ( )
Date: November 16, 2017 02:13AM

Thanks for the info. I’m glad Jewish theologians are considering dropping this prayer, because the rationalization offered (that the prayer acknowledges that roles traditionally prescribed for women are so much tougher/ more important/ more noble - what-have-you than those tradionally prescribed for men) is just as hollow and rings just as insincerely as all the other rationalizations of similar comments in both religious and secular contexts. Besides, even if any of these excuses were sincere, they would still be sexist.

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Posted by: Oregon ( )
Date: November 13, 2017 09:34PM

Women can only imagine the mind FU@K that goes through 12yr old boys head when he is given the priesthood. Remember it is the power to act in Gods name. This only gets worse as you progress through the ranks. Yes..it is disgusting.

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Posted by: Oregon ( )
Date: November 13, 2017 09:35PM

I hope that doesn't come across sexist. It was not my intention.

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Posted by: Tevai ( )
Date: November 13, 2017 09:46PM

Oregon Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> I hope that doesn't come across sexist. It was
> not my intention.

No, it does not come across as sexist at all.

For me, it was a valuable insight that I have never had before, and I am grateful for your post.

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Posted by: perditious1 ( )
Date: November 13, 2017 09:45PM

funny, in the polygamous culture of smith and young's mormonism, 8 sons certainly wouldn't be prized like 8 daughters would, just ask the so called lost boys of the flds

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Posted by: Tom Padley ( )
Date: November 13, 2017 11:11PM

A bishop I had once also made a very misogynistic statement. I don't think it was in a public setting like sacrament meeting, but I heard it nonetheless. He said that boys were more special that girls. He had six daughters and two sons.

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Posted by: rhgc ( )
Date: November 14, 2017 02:39PM

That man is a special fool. I regard all of my children the same - all eight daughters and four sons. My family has a record of women graduating from college for 200 years.

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Posted by: Done & Done ( )
Date: November 14, 2017 10:23AM

Mormons are holding on to their misogyny the same as they held onto their bigotry against blacks and had to literally be forced to (mostly) give it up decades after everyone else started to. And, they are hang onto their misogyny the same as they are still clinging to their homophobia which is very very very slowly being pulled from their clutches by a kinder society. Who knows? Twenty more years and they could catch up and claim they were never homophobic, as they still put women on a pedestal as a way to cover up their treatment of them.

I guess as the world is more and more for equality of women who have actually always been equal, the Mormons consider it a badge of honor to be the last ones to hold onto the old ways--claiming they are only doing what God wants them to do, what the Bible teaches and the D&C. (Not the BoM because it doesn't teach anything but kill, wicked, dark skin, rinse and repeat. Well it rarely mentions women, so I guess that reinforces the Mormon idea that they don't count except for feeding the cureleloms).

I was TBM to the max as a kid and when I got my endowments the blood oaths didn't bother me. What I found hard to take was watching my mother pull a veil over her face and bow her head and say yes to the men. She was bright, capable, talented, and wise. So. WTF?

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Posted by: allegro ( )
Date: November 14, 2017 11:09AM

When my son received the priesthood he was told he was now head of the family because he was now the priesthood leader in the house. I was appalled at that remark. In the car I gave him the "mom look" and he replied, " I know, you are the boss." I told him he better not forget it. He never did.

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Posted by: Jonny the Smoke ( )
Date: November 14, 2017 01:56PM

"In Jewish culture, A woman that has lots of sons is prized above all other women. So today I want to publicly thank my wife for giving me 8 sons."

Reply: Wow! 8 sons from a 4 cow wife, you should be proud that your female property was able to produce so many arrows for your quiver, jewels for your crown......whatever.

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Posted by: itzbeen20 ( )
Date: November 15, 2017 08:38PM

...to Jews— the “old” stuff no one should pay attention to.
Whether it be correct or not is not the issue.
That is what you publicly praise your wife for as her #1 accomplishment, being able to bring your seed to full and healthy term.what is the “New” standard by which we should judge or spouses?
Not sure, eh??
So which is it? Does not say much for any restoration replacement!

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Posted by: Free Man ( )
Date: November 15, 2017 09:24PM

I agree there are jerk men in the church. But to generalize and say members are only misogynist is cherry picking, though politically correct.

I read this on an LDS site posted by an EmmaLee, and thought it interesting given the frequent claim that women are generally oppressed in the church.

"Thank you for mentioning that, passionflower. It reminds me that there is a constant theme in our ward (and surely it can't just be ours??), and especially in RS, that men are just, well, stupid, and incapable of doing anything right, etc. If anything is going to get done in the ward/stake, you better put the RS in charge of it, by golly. The men are good for the set-up/take-down of chairs and all, but leave everything else up to the women. The wife of our previous Bishop (who is now 1st counselor in our new stake presidency), pretty much rolls her eyes every time her husband opens his mouth, and she's been heard (yes, by me) berating him in public more than a few times. I cringe. Otherwise decent LDS women, women who seem to want to do good and help and are Christian in many ways, still can't seem to not jump on the "let's berate men" bandwagon. Frankly, it makes me sick, and there are times when I've spoken up in RS, which did not go well - and there have been times when my sons (at various ages, starting in their teen years) would get up and leave sacrament meeting when men-bashing occurred (sadly, in sacrament meeting, the men-bashing is usually done by men). One of the main characteristics our young adult sons look for in a marriage partner, above many other more common characteristics, is "she can't be a man-basher". Experience has shown them that their choices are few."

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