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Posted by: saffainoz ( )
Date: November 09, 2017 08:23PM

Hi folks
I’m a third generation Mo who married a great guy that converted into the faith. I have watched how, over the years, serving and being inspired by other great men has helped him to grow into a man that I really love and respect, and is loved and respected by all who know him. He had some issues to work through when we were first married, like an explosive temper. His father was abusive and he certainly could have gone the same way. He has always had a good heart but there’s no denying that being in the church has really been good for him. He appreciates this too, and recognises his own growth. He is happier in the church than he was without it. I’ve always been surrounded with wonderful examples of good men and women in my family, that were also all strong in the faith.
In the last few years I’ve slowly been learning about the true history of our church and have been through all the expected emotions of denial, justification and hurt that comes with it.
We haven’t denounced Mormonism, or told our beloved family or friends. I can’t imagine the reactions from them if I ever told them my true feelings. Being stuck like this is not a healthy or happy position to be in, obviously. I’m hesitant because I guess I’m still trying to undo all the indoctrination I’ve had that I’m still reverting to. I don’t want to make any major decisions yet like leaving the church in case I’m wrong. How does the church produce such wonderful, decent people if it’s so wrong? My husband is even scared of what he will become without the church as he says it helps him to be a better man. We have so much love and cherished friendships within the organisation. I imagine we’d be miserable without them, and quite lonely. Anyone had any experiences to share about how leaving the church has impacted them or their spouse negatively? How does it produce such a great caliber of people? Do you find the same or better caliber of people anywhere else? Ofcourse I’m only speaking from our own experiences but I’m interested to hear from others.

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Posted by: elderolddog ( )
Date: November 09, 2017 08:57PM

Heck, stay mormon if it's working for you!

Personally, I don't believe there is any "TRUTH" that exists ab initio, and must be found and lived. I think it's all about living a life that makes you happy and does not disturb the world around you. You don't have to make it a 'better' world, but don't tear it down or hurt people.

The church, in my opinion, didn't spring from the forehead of Elohim, like Athena did from the forehead of Zeus. But neither did any other organization. Stay in, enjoy life, keep your man-beast pacified!

But at the very least bring up your kids to think for themselves. Don't force them into the mold if you can see it doesn't make them happy.

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Posted by: BYU Boner ( )
Date: November 09, 2017 09:01PM

elderolddog Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> ab initio

Dawg, you’re in rare form tonight, rare form!

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Posted by: elderolddog ( )
Date: November 09, 2017 09:07PM

I's edumacated, my good man!

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Posted by: slammingsam ( )
Date: November 15, 2017 07:40PM

Only problem with this, OD, is that at some point - probably sooner than later - the church will require you to attest / commit to the absolute truth of what it teaches - very difficult to remain an observer. Sooner or later, you and your kids will be required to show your absolute commitment to the LDS church - either through a calling as a teacher, or a request for a blessing, request to bear testimony etc. You won't be able to comfortably sit and watch from backstage.

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Posted by: saffainoz ( )
Date: November 17, 2017 08:07PM

Slammingsam, you are right. There’s no hiding in a church that keeps you so busy. I was asked last Sunday to accept a teaching position in Primary and had to explain that I’m struggling with some of the lds doctrines and our church history. I was surprised by the patronising response I received. Unfortunately I don’t think I’ll have much time left before I have to be forthcoming with everyone I know. Terrifying at this stage for me but it is comforting to know there are so many others who have been through this.

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Posted by: summer ( )
Date: November 09, 2017 09:55PM

>>Do you find the same or better caliber of people anywhere else?

Yes, of course you do. There are plenty of good people in other churches, synagogues, etc. and also plenty of good people who are not religious. Where on Earth did you get the idea that only Mormonism produces good people? Did it never occur to you that is rather an arrogant point of view?

My brother is one of the finest men that I know. He is loyal, loving, kind, honest, hard working, and generous. He takes after our dad in that regard. My dad was raised Episcopalian, and my brother and I were raised Catholic. We have both left that church, and my brother now considers himself agnostic.

There is a saying, what is good about Mormonism is not unique, and what is unique is not good. If I were to return to a church, I personally would want a faith that has a greater respect for my time, resources, dignity, privacy, and worth as a woman. I would want a faith where people are not afraid to leave if they so desire, and are not shunned if they do. I would want a faith that is transparent about its finances and uses more of its resources to do charitable work as opposed to buying businesses and real estate. I would want a faith that does not willfully divide families nor judge "worthiness" on superficial matters.

But if Mormonism works for you, stick with it. There is no sense in you leaving unless you are morally compelled to do so.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 11/09/2017 09:57PM by summer.

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Posted by: saffainoz ( )
Date: November 10, 2017 01:51AM

Thank you for each of your responses. I wasn’t even sure if anyone would reply. First time posting anything. The title I use with tongue-in-cheek and probably should have explained it. The fruits of Mormonism obviously haven’t all been good. Plenty rotten fruit. Yet somehow, with all the deception and crazy stuff that went on, today it has evolved into something that is appealing to many, especially as an organisation.

I know there are many wonderful people outside “the church”. I just haven’t been exposed to as many people outside of the organisation that have had the kind of transformations I’ve seen within the organisation. Sheltered, naive, ignorant, etc, yes, I probably am, but working on it.
Felix, I appreciated everything about your thoughtful response. You managed to describe our situation without even realising it, my husband being the one that benefits from being part of the social “tribe” of the church. It motivates him in ways that it does not for me. I want to break free from it but I’m not sure if I’m ready to defend myself from the good intentioned onslaught that will come afterwards or the many other repercussions of leaving just yet. It’s all fear, I know.
brigidbarnes, thanks for your reply. I have stopped going to the temple as it freaked me out every time. I’ve stopped wearing the garments. Managed to dodge a ‘calling’ for my husband to the Stake Presidency by asking the seventy a few questions in the 2 minute interview we had. He’s still thanking me for that! I have found some solace in studying the “Good News Bible” and in reading about the experiences of others who have been through this in a similar way.
Once again, thanks to all for your time and replies.

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Posted by: saffainoz ( )
Date: November 10, 2017 01:57AM


Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 11/10/2017 01:59AM by saffainoz.

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Posted by: summer ( )
Date: November 10, 2017 05:45AM

>>I know there are many wonderful people outside “the church”. I just haven’t been exposed to as many people outside of the organisation that have had the kind of transformations I’ve seen within the organisation.

Then you haven't been exposed to a Methodist. Or a Presbyterian. Or a UU. Etc.

I have a Methodist woman who volunteers in my classroom and in my school for most of her day. Some of the students that I have taught while she is in the room are foul-mouthed, disrespectful, and sometimes even violent (I am an urban teacher.) You want to know how many Mormons I have met teaching and or volunteering in my urban school district over twenty years? ZERO.

Another friend of mine, also Methodist, is a social activist. Her church, like all UMC Methodist churches, budgets 25% of funds for community charities.

A group of Presbyterian women, led by their female minister, ran an after-school program for upper elementary and middle school girls in my last school. Neighborhood parents ran the neighborhood food pantry there.

A friend of mine, of no particular religion, recently participated in a charity fund drive to help homeless youth. Such minors might be homeless due to being born gay and being kicked out of the homes of their righteous Mormon parents. This is a problem, have you heard of it?

I mean, you are kidding, right? There are plenty of organizations that help people to transform. Even certain jobs help people to transform. You need to get out of your bubble more. And honestly, your attitude is extremely insulting to non-Mormons. The Mormon church has indoctrinated you well.



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 11/10/2017 06:05AM by summer.

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Posted by: saffainoz ( )
Date: November 10, 2017 09:03AM

Summer, I admitted to trying to break out from my indoctrination, as well as admitting to not having a lot of exposure to folks outside of lds circles. A few acquaintances but not enough deeper friendships. No offence was intended for you or anyone else. Im just in a place where I honestly don’t know where to go from here. It’s scary, I cry easily lately and I wouldn’t wish this feeling on anyone, although I know others have been through it so I was just hoping to connect with someone that can help me navigate through this without feeling like I’m being judged for where I’m coming from and wherever this is going. I probably should have just read other posts instead of posting myself as this has ended up more hurtful than helpful.
I’m determined to come out of my bubble and to build new friendships with others outside of the lds faith.
Thanks for your time in sharing so many wonderful examples of the acts of love and service rendered by those you know.
Best wishes

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Posted by: summer ( )
Date: November 10, 2017 11:13AM

Okay, I'll retract the claws and stop hissing. :)

Normally I'm not quite so testy. But I did want you to think about what you were saying. Like Gatorman, I've seen a lot of life and met good people everywhere, sometimes under very trying circumstances. The Mormon church does not have a lock on producing good people or on service projects. You find that everywhere.

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Posted by: gatorman ( )
Date: November 10, 2017 09:38AM

summer Wrote:
--------------------------------------------------


> There is a saying, what is good about Mormonism is
> not unique, and what is unique is not good.

What a profound statement. Spent 50+ years in the church and the same time looking in the mirror. Also spent considerable time inside the leadership and presumably inspired positions. Then, after leaving the church building and going to work as a physician, was constantly exposed to good, generous, kind, devoted individuals of all faiths and creeds. I felt repeatedly humbled, realized all to late the bullshit of the “one true church” and finally and painfully left two years ago. So I challenge your husband’s conclusion the church made him a better man. “Better” men come from a myriad of churches, organizations and employment experiences. But most importantly better men come from their own actions. He chose certain behaviors that can be modeled anywhere. Excellent!!

But after 50+ years the underbelly was exposed. Wish I could use the words to describe the disgust felt at some First Presidency decisions. “The thinking has been done”-what a joke. But because “we”- you and I and your husband- identified as Mormons others assume-you and I- we believe as Mormons believe. I simply could not tolerate that any longer. I didn’t and don’t believe as Mormons believe. The trade off- “makes me a better man” versus being identified as a Mormon with all the unbearable baggage wasn’t and isn’t worth it.

You can explore doctrine, church origins, history and all. The problems there are insurmountable in my opinion. But we live in the here and now. I simply do not wish to be identified as a Mormon by my peers, friends and patients. You and your husband will have to weigh the costs of membership versus non-membership in your community, employment and family. I did and the church was found wanting

Gatorman

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Posted by: saffainoz ( )
Date: November 10, 2017 11:30AM

Great share and valuable insight. Thanks Gatorman for sharing your perspective and personal experiences. It takes great courage to break away from something that is so pervasive in our minds, relationships and on our time. So much time! Well done for doing so.
I understand some of what I’ve written reflects a rather narrow-minded worldview. I’ve never known anything outside of a life in Mormonism. The attitude that the lds have more than everyone else because of being in ‘the only true church’ is entrenched in lds thinking. It’s such a prideful attitude that creates a biased judgement of everyone else. And it’s hard to even recognise it without objectivity and brutal honesty.


I’m ready to leave - but my husband most definitely is not ready to let go. I got him in, the least I can do is be patient and hopefully we can get out with the family still intact. In the meantime, I’ve got to try keep calm and not lose my head:0

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Posted by: Done & Done ( )
Date: November 09, 2017 10:04PM

Saffainoz wrote: "Anyone had any experiences to share about how leaving the church has impacted them or their spouse negatively? How does it produce such a great caliber of people? Do you find the same or better caliber of people anywhere else?"


Seriously? You are searching for reasons to continue the fraud by pretending Mormons are superior? That of the other eight million people on earth only mormons have a "better caliber of people?"

Go ahead. Pretend the cockroach is not there in the middle and enjoy your better caliber ice cream. Teach your children to do the same.

Does your husband honestly after all these years have no idea how to be a good, kind, empathetic human being without the Mormons of all people telling him how? This is not impressive.

Apparently the misogyny and homophobia are no issue for you so go ahead and enjoy your cherished friendships with like minded people. Your having fun is all that counts after all.

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Posted by: elderolddog ( )
Date: November 09, 2017 10:20PM

Okay, Done & Done raises an issue...

The mormon church stinks. Those few places where it dominates, it does so with a very heavy hand.

Do you have any friends, acquaintances or coworkers who are not mormon? How many mormons do you know that you actively avoid? How many Fast Sundays do you groan when brother or sister braggart get up to thank ghawd for making them so wonderful?

And the kids... All the lying they have to learn to do!

I raised two completely atheist sons. They are great young men, and part of their development had to do with not being saddled with the everlasting, but ever changing, mormon gospel.

You know what I associate with mormonism? "We're going to Disneyland!" Like it's the celestial kingdom...

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Posted by: catnip ( )
Date: November 17, 2017 08:54PM

But hey, I grew up in San Diego. Disneyland opened when I was 9 or 10 years old. (I will never forget our first visit - Mother forced me to wear my patent-leather church shoes, which I hated, and which raised horrible blisters on both of my feet before the day was done. And NO other shoes to change into.) But we went just about every summer. Sometimes over Christmas vacation.

Blisters notwithstanding, I still think of Disneyland as the Celestial Kingdom, only better. Haven't been there in over a quarter-century, and if I went now, it would have to be in a wheelchair, which would be a drag, so I will stick with my memories.

Do you remember back when admission came with lettered tickets? A-tickets were for relatively tame things, like President Lincoln on Main Street. The E-tickets were the BEST, like for the Matterhorn.

Before DH and I were married (26 years ago), I decided to take then-fiance and his 3 kids, along with my son, to Disneyland, from our relative homes in Albuquerque. I started saving in January, for a trip during summer vacation. There was a campground adjacent to D-land back then, so we invested in this HUGE circular tent from REI, and we all slept at the campground, which was cheaper than hotel rooms.

His youngest - then, not quite 5 - got overtired and whiny by early evening, so DH had to take her back to the campground. But the 3 "big kids" and I stayed until the fireworks, late in the evening. Very happy memories.

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Posted by: Jesus of Orem ( )
Date: November 09, 2017 10:36PM

If belonging to the not-for-profit arm of a Utah-based real estate conglomerate is the only thing preventing your husband from exploding into an abusive raging monster, then by all means stay in the boat.

But really, think about it. The reason your husband became a mormon is that you were already one. Had you been a Catholic or Episcopalian or whatever the Aussie version of Anglican is, that's what you would have drawn him into instead. Can you genuinely claim that a different religious tradition wouldn't have had an equally beneficial and calming effect?

You may have cherished friendships, or not. Mormon friendships tend to be a mile wide and an inch deep. If they learn about your doubts, and (even worse) that you might act on them, you will quickly find out how much of that "love" is genuine, and how "wonderful and decent" they are when their faith is threatened.

If you must stay in, keep your activity to a minimum. Don't let them hold a temple rec over your head like a drawn sword. Don't pay tithing; the church doesn't need your money! And for god's sake, teach your kids how to think for themselves so the church doesn't brainwash them. Your kids will not need mormonism in order to be decent, caring people, just your example.

I think the responses are tending to the acidic side because the title of your OP, "by their fruits," is typically used by die-hard believers defending the church, not realizing just how damaging the church is in real life. It's a trigger to many.

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Posted by: saffainoz ( )
Date: November 10, 2017 02:55AM

Thanks, it’s not easy to keep things up for the sake of peace in relationships but at the same time having no peace of mind. I’m hoping our family will be able to navigate through this without being ripped to shreds. Thanks for your input. I would appreciate you reading my post that I accidentally put under Summers response.

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Posted by: Chicken N. Backpacks ( )
Date: November 09, 2017 10:37PM

Define what qualities the actual doctrines and teachings of the church are, as opposed to "conventional" Christianity; think about kindnesses and true friendships you and he have made in the church.

Now, think about the doctrines that are not, or barely, taught, or have been changed by an "unchanging" God; think about the rote activities and prayer and "study", and busy-work, and more study, and more prayer, and more "study" and more busy-work (and think about the word-twisting in the phrase "opportunity to serve"!) and endless and nearly obsessive repeating of the same things every General Conference about pray, pay, and obey.

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Posted by: Chicken N. Backpacks ( )
Date: November 09, 2017 10:51PM

Oh yeah, I forgot: it's The Corporation of the President of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints.

Think about *that*.

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Posted by: fudley ( )
Date: November 09, 2017 11:48PM

Even unhealthy trees have low hanging fruit that tastes good. Perhaps you should think about the whole harvest? The Mall, second anointing, racisms, and sexism are obvious places to start. History, Lies, Rook, and jello are a close second. OK, rook and jello are just annoying.

What you might find is that healthy trees have low hanging fruit that tastes good too. Stepping through the curtain of lies lets one see the rest of the tree.

Now I sound like a TBM on Sunday morning - someone call me an asshat quick!

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Posted by: brigidbarnes ( )
Date: November 10, 2017 12:01AM

It's not always as you make out. I have lived in areas where many Mormons were bad, or crazy, or both. There are other churches that help people to become their better selves. You may have to search a while before you find one that works for you. I have found one that works for me. I won't say which, because I don't want people to get caught up in "one and only" thinking patterns.

Attending a Bible study might help you to figure out what you want to look for in a church. I recommend backing out of Mormonism gradually, so that it won't be as much of a shock to you, to no longer be in the LDS way of life. Start by pushing your tithing down to 10% of your SURPLUS income! Lots of Mormons are doing this now, though the church doesn't like this loss of THEIR income. Ditch the temple and stick with meetinghouse activities. Slowly and gradually, start skipping some 3-hour blocks. By the time you are finished backing out of Mormonism, you are likely to have found your new church!



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 11/10/2017 12:02AM by brigidbarnes.

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Posted by: saffainoz ( )
Date: November 10, 2017 02:47AM

brigidbarnes, I posted my reply by accident under Summers response. Thank you for your advice.

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Posted by: Felix ( )
Date: November 10, 2017 12:02AM

I believe there is some truth to what you say. I have thought about this and have some theories as to what some contributing factors may be.

I believe that many who do not flourish in a social environment (church) may be less inclined to be held bound by those same social/peer expectations for group conformity. This isn't always the case as some very confident and socially involved leaders have parted company with the church once they discovered the other side of Mormonism.

Some who still believe may drop out simply because they don't fit in. I have met these types who although inactive still believe and will sometimes defend the church. This group of social misfits whether they still believe or have become decidedly ex-mo represent a considerable percentage of the Mormon equation. That leaves those who do well and flourish in a social environment and they still believe or at least attend.

This doesn't mean their beliefs are correct nor does it mean that they don't benefit from their church involvements. It means that many who remain are more able to flourish in a socially tight knit environment and gives a false impression that the church alone is to credit for their success or their fruits.

In support of this idea I recently listened to a doctor being interviewed who had done considerable research into human behavior and brain activity studies. He stated that those who participate in a church community on a regular basis seem to benefit from it. The church they attended didn't matter so long as they had meaningful involvement and friendships. He said it had something to do with mirror neurons.

I believe that churches are an extension of and spring from the tribal instinct that we evolved from and all innately inherit. As the traditions, myths and cultural heritages that we carry forward are challenged by the modern world with internet exposure to new ways of interpreting the past and present as well as things formerly hidden to us(think - the full account of Mormon history) the myths that held us bound begin to collapse.

This collapse presents many challenges for the individual and society. Perhaps this is one of the reasons we collectively probe and question everything in these discussions; so we can find better answers. Many of the Church's teachings and answers of the past were based on erroneous and false ideas. I believe that ultimately the unvarnished truth no matters what it reveals itself to be is what will provide the best chance at finding better answers for us going forward.

Great post.

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Posted by: saffainoz ( )
Date: November 10, 2017 02:38AM

Hi Felix!
My reply was posted under Summers response. Hoping you’ll read it. Thanks

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Posted by: unbelievable2 ( )
Date: November 10, 2017 06:53AM

Sounds like people pleasing may be an issue here. The cult sucks the essence of humanity from its members so they morph into pretentious phonies. Taking off social masks is a sign of what fruit, i.e., honesty, courage, self-confidence? Understanding the difference between having a genuine relationship with Diety from an obsession with a cult is a fruit of cognitive and spiritual development. Jesus Christ is your Savior, not the cult. Are you confused, lost, afraid? These are signs of emotional blackmail, fear, obligation and guilt (FOG). May I suggest dialectical behavioral therapy? That journey of learning will help you tremendously. Are satisfied with living with rotten fruit? If not, find the courage (fruit of honesty) to make the call and move away from the garbage.

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Posted by: saffainoz ( )
Date: November 10, 2017 09:17AM

As harsh as that sounds you’re right on all counts, except I don’t fall into the ‘pretentious phony’ Category;) thanks for the suggestion of dialectical behavioural therapy. I’ll look into that. I have no idea how long it will take to clear my head of all the stuff that I thought was my own thinking, but is the result of indoctrination. FOG completely!

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Posted by: yeppers ( )
Date: November 10, 2017 07:18AM

The Mormon church is more like old dried up raisins.

You want to see REAL fruit?

Go attend the largest Christian church (baptist if you can) in your area for a few months.

Attend the service & sunday school.

NOW you will see what real fruit looks like.

You will see a church do more for the LOCAL community and have more events in 3 months than your local ward in 3 years.

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Posted by: saffainoz ( )
Date: November 10, 2017 09:24AM

Lol - dried up raisins describes the ward we’ve been attending in the last 4 years 100%. Still navigating through this but looking forward to one day attending a church like the one you described.

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Posted by: gatorman ( )
Date: November 10, 2017 09:49AM

Saffainoz

Not very good at technology but tried to leave you a heartfelt response above. Hope my thoughts create more of yours

Gatorman

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Posted by: Done & Done ( )
Date: November 10, 2017 10:32AM

Before you began responding your post seemed to me to be extolling the virtues of mormonism to such a degree that I thought there was a possibility that the part about not believing the church was made up.

After reading this morning, I would say this. Rome was not built in a day. Keep gathering information. Keep accessing the situation. Look for opportunities to expand your horizons. For most people what makes sense is to look for land in the distance before you jump off the boat. That makes sense in any scenario.

I just jumped --no land in sight. Loaded up my car and left Utah. I immediately found wonderful people and a great new life. My family did not take it well but I was too set on being myself and took the risk of losing them. In the end they came around----to a degree.

I live and work among a wide variety of people that bring wonderful things to my life. Haven't known a Mormon for years. The one thing these people have in common is they all love their families to death. That is all of our common ground. Mormons have no lock on that, in fact, they are their own worst enemy in most ways when it comes to the way they treat family.

Good luck to you. This is a good place to get a lay of the land. Do not fear the outide world. Go cautiously, but go.

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Posted by: saffainoz ( )
Date: November 10, 2017 12:04PM

Thanks so much for this message. It means a lot to hear from others who can relate on some level before taking that jump. I would like to see land in the distance before doing so! I think that’s probably part of what scares me -going from familiar territory into uncharted waters, even though the option of staying on board the old ship ‘zion’ is not an option anymore. You’re very courageous and I’m glad that things worked out favourably for you in starting a new life. Your story is encouraging!

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Posted by: GregS ( )
Date: November 10, 2017 11:40AM

Your husband sounds much like my wife.

She is deathly afraid that if she were to ever leave the church that she would suddenly decide to start doing things that she knows are wrong. As though the only way she knows right from wrong is what the church tells her.

We've been married for five years, and I am still struggling to convince her that she is inherently good, independent of the church. Besides, she married me because I was a good man, and I was never a Mormon.

The dots are there, just as they are for your husband; they're just not connecting them.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 11/10/2017 11:41AM by GregS.

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Posted by: Done & Done ( )
Date: November 10, 2017 12:08PM

Not connecting the dots. You are so right.

The core of the indoctrination of the Mormon church is to get you to believe they know you better than you know yourself, that you should trust them above your own intuition. They want their followers to stay in embryo because that makes it possible for them to keep you dependent on them, like a drug, and no less.

What each Mormon needs to face in order to break away and say 'I am me and I am enough,' is this:

"Life does not accommodate you; it shatters you. Every seed destroys its container, or else there would be no fruition."
-----Florida Scott-Maxwell.

Life begins when you trust yourself--when you shatter the shell that was carefully built around you from birth by others. At least that is how I feel very strongly.

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Posted by: saffainoz ( )
Date: November 10, 2017 12:29PM

Oh you are so right. I’m only just learning to do this. To trust my own intuition over what a high standing ‘priesthood holder’ says. My own father still talks to me with this authoritative tone that makes me feel like a child that must submit. I’m 38 years old!

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Posted by: saffainoz ( )
Date: November 10, 2017 12:15PM

Absolutely. You’re right. He’s afraid of becoming his dad.
He witnessed abusive behaviour and a wild temper in his father that would be unleashed on those closest to him. Alcohol didn’t help. I agree with your assessment and believe that my husband is inherently good too, independent of the church.
Thanks for your comment and good luck to us both!

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Posted by: GregS ( )
Date: November 10, 2017 12:46PM

Ironically, my wife is afraid of becoming her mother, and it was her conversion that prompted my wife's own conversion so many years ago.

My MIL is a piece of work: serial adultery; repeatedly subjecting her kids to their abusive father, even after they were well and done of him; repeatedly pimping herself out to her well-and-done and abusive ex in exchange for new cars and such; etc. But she reads the scriptures every day and has a strong testimony, so she's got that going for her. I'm sorry...I'm not a fan.

In my more charitable moments, I can understand that my MIL had a rough life and was trying to get by as best she could. But I have a very difficult time forgiving what she allowed her kids to go through at the hands of their father. His abuse put my wife in the hospital when she was only 14.

My wife really couldn't go wrong if she would just ask, "What would Mom do?", and then do the opposite.

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Posted by: flutterbypurple ( )
Date: November 10, 2017 12:24PM

Saffainoz wrote......

We haven’t denounced Mormonism, or told our beloved family or friends. I can’t imagine the reactions from them if I ever told them my true feelings.
______________________________________________________________

Not everyone will react the same. There will a whole range of emotions and reactions when you do tell others of your non-belief.
Please be prepared to handle all of these emotions and reactions.
Not all but many will pull away from you. The close friends you thought you had will suddenly become to busy to associate with you. Especially when they realize the love bombing they will subject you to is not working. As long as they think you might come back they will try. When it clicks you will not be back you will be dropped as a friend.

If your family is fully indoctrinated you may be subjected to guilt and shame for the fact you will be leaving. They may try to indoctrinate your children even more by
doubling down on family is forever teachings.

I suggest you and your family branch out and make new friends outside of the "one true church". Cultivate friendships at work whether it is you or your husband or both. Encourage your children to make friends outside of church in school with children of other faiths or backgrounds. Get to know the parents of these children and cultivate a friendship with some of them.
This way you will still have support and friendship when the friends from church start to shun you.
There are lots of good people outside of the church this will give you a chance to meet them.
Like I said not everyone will react the same way. Some will accept you and love you as you change and grow. This is my hope for for you with family and friends especially but as you may have read or may read in the future here on RfM sadly it is often not the case.

Best wishes to you and your family in this journey.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 11/10/2017 12:59PM by flutterbypurple.

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Posted by: saffainoz ( )
Date: November 10, 2017 12:40PM

Thank you from the bottom of my heart for your warm and loving message. I think it may be my socialite husband that feels the impact the most as I’m happy in my own company and am willing to lose those friendships that won’t pull through. Won’t be easy with my own parents, grandparents and siblings though!
Will definitely reach out to others in the community though. Thanks again for your kind words.

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Posted by: billyandjane ( )
Date: November 14, 2017 10:42PM

Hello and welcome to the exmo forum world. Im not too far removed from where you are, in the wondering if what next. I've only ever been Mormon and I've only ever had Mormon friends with the exception of like 2 or 3 people. I'm an introvert and don't care for a lot of friends so the one or 2 I made in each ward was enough. Different from your story, is I had a good friend, nevermo, who added a lot of weight to my shelf in juse the fact of how awesome of a person she and all her family were, without the church -gasp- :) I was raised by tbms among tbms and I was sheltered except at school where I was a big fat mormon nerd. Anyway, leaving what you've known your whole life is very scary. You have a right to be scared and uncertain. Your husband is a good guy because he's a good guy. If he reounces his religion he is not going to automatically become a bad, mean guy. You're true Mormon friends will still be your friends, trust in their goodness. Take it slow. There is no hurry. It's OK to feel scared and nervous, but you'll find happiness and a different sort of freedom in that uncertainty. It's good, also scary, but good. Good luck!!

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Posted by: saffainoz ( )
Date: November 17, 2017 08:22PM

Hi billyandjane:)
Good to hear from you and thanks for your comments. I’m also an introvert so appreciate where you’re coming from. This would be a lot easier to do if I was on my own but I have a very social husband that has already told me that he needs to attend meetings and he likes the accountability he has (keeping him ‘temple worthy’), whereas my motivation is more to do with being able to be guided by my own intuition now instead of following the ‘rules’in the church in order to please others. I’m learning of a different God in the New Testament which has bought much peace even through the pain of realising I’ve been deceived in Mormonism.

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Posted by: cl2 ( )
Date: November 14, 2017 11:17PM

So just taking a baby step out can be traumatic. It was for me. I remember when I first came here, one of the old regulars, asked me why I would read Dialogue and Sunstone. I did take baby steps. If you look up my name, you'll see a lot of my story here.

I knew my ex was cheating with men (I knew before I married him and the leaders told me I needed to save him). He was the ex. sec. of the ward and my ex IS the social person. I'm the introvert. I was treated better while with my ex than any other time in my life as my family are all introverts and my father was not very active mormon. So when the bishop basically stalked me to get me to talk to him, he told me my husband would be the next bishop or the one after that and I felt I had no choice, and I went inactive and took my kids with me as I was NEVER going to the leaders again about this issue. So I had no choice but to take the leap I felt. He went inactive when he was released.

What I learned from going inactive and eventually resigning was that I am who I am. Mormonism didn't make me who I am.

There, of course, was a fallout. My parents wondered why I left, but they listened. I lucked out in that 3 of my 5 siblings were already inactive. My daughter is the only TBM of all my parents' grandchildren/great. Of course, it had to be my daughter.

I am much happier out than I was in. My ex told my daughter I was never happy as a mormon and I wasn't. I've been out over 20 years. I resigned 5 or 6 years ago. It was a huge load off my shoulders. I have more "intuition" now than I did as a mormon as I don't base my intuition on mormon restrictions.

Two years ago with the new policy on children of gays my heart was broken. I see it as a way to force gay men to stay married or to get married to women. It is a disaster and very, very damaging to both spouses.

I left basically kicking and screaming out of fear. It is one of the best things I've ever done for myself. I still have some mormon friends who I love dearly. BUT I've had nonmormon friends for a long time and I'm actually with the guy I wanted to marry at age 20, who is a great person. My dad was better than any mormon man I ever knew and he wasn't very active, drank alcohol, chewed tobacco, and drank coffee. His father was truly the best man I have ever known and he also "broke the word of wisdom." My brother is my best friend and he left the church in his teens.

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Posted by: saffainoz ( )
Date: November 17, 2017 08:37PM

I appreciate you sharing this with me. It sounds like you have been through so much but you’ve definitely come out stronger for it. Letting go is going to be hard because I’m not sure what we are going to. I’ve recognised that so much of my fear comes from many years of indoctrination. I’m so scared of being wrong, even though the evidence of Mormonism being false is abundantly clear! How crazy is that?

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Posted by: itzbeen20 ( )
Date: November 14, 2017 11:39PM

When your husband still thanks you for your interview questions which got him out of consideration for a Stake Presidency calling— you are both out and know it.
There is no going back to the place of earlier innocence and comfort.
If you keep looking back, you will turn to a pillar of salt, as Lot’s wife. Unknown, she is. We donot even know her name.
Yes, life is not always comfortable.
But you will grow together and teach your children the most valuable lesson of honesty!
Do well, in your own time.

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Posted by: saffainoz ( )
Date: November 17, 2017 08:28PM

itzbeen20, your assessment is right. I keep hoping to find something that can help us go back to our innocent and comfortable position in the church but at the same time I really despise being deceived. Truth is always worth the sacrifices made. Thanks for your comment :)

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Posted by: Mother Who Knows ( )
Date: November 15, 2017 05:07AM

You need to face reality. Test your thinking. Read what Summer wrote. Do you think it is nice and wonderful to hate gay people, and cause their innocent children to suffer?

Do you think the Mormons who are shunning, dis-owning and divorcing us are good people!

I get angry when Mormons condone and even enable child abuse and pedophilia. The Mormon priesthood leaders (who were fathers themselves) hit and kicked my sons, and threw them around the room, on several occasions, in our own house, while I was away at church. What did my children do? They slept in, after their early morning paper routes, and missed priesthood meeting. Only a cult would resort to violence to force people to attend their meetings. Only violent thugs beat up children. My sons truly are sweet, loving boys, and now very happy and successful, IN SPITE OF being raised in the Mormon cult.

Mormons are good at hiding the truth. It's what they do. It's what they have done from the very beginning. Check it out. Take your kids out of Sunday school for a while, or quit your calling, and see how mean Mormons can be.

The Mormons were sweetness and light (though they still didn't let me have the priesthood and treated me like a second-class citizen, but I was used to that) while I was married to a wealthy tithe-payer, and was producing babies (their #1 source of new members) and had three callings, and was a professional teacher and musician. But then I got divorced and had to work to support my children. Everything changed. I lost status. Mormon women didn't want their husbands talking to me. Mormon men thought I was an easy mark, and some of them hit on me. It was revolting. These were the same people who had supposedly been my friends, but they clearly did not understand my situation, or respect me. The Mormons demanded tithing that I could not afford, and suggested I go on welfare, so I could pay out that money for tithing, instead of food for my kids.

I was relieved to discover that Mormonism is a hoax, and I could take my children and run. I found really good people in our community, of all religions. When I think of "the finest people I know", two of them are Atheists, and are like fathers to my children, and like brothers (nothing sexual) to me. Most of my family, and the cousins I am closest to, are no longer Mormons, and they are truly wonderful human beings. I don't trust Mormons, in general, and don't like doing business with them.

You seem to have been a victim of the Mormons' mass teachings of elitism and arrogance. You have been brainwashed into believing that only tithe-paying temple Mormons can get into the "highest degree of heaven" and that others won't be allowed to even visit there! In that heaven, Mormon priesthood men will be granted multiple wives. How can you think this is OK?

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Posted by: saffainoz ( )
Date: November 17, 2017 08:53PM

Motherwhoknows, please try not to judge me. I personally have no issues with same-sex couples. Each to their own. Our history with old men marrying young women and the whole idea of polygamy is revolting to me. I’m learning new things every day and am feeling quite alone in this. Some of my initial remarks are not even relevant anymore because they were so broad. I know the church members are not always the kind and loving people we’d hope them to be. I’m experiencing this already on a small scale as I start to share with others my thoughts on Mormonism.

I’m sorry for the awful experiences you had with so called “Priesthood bearers.” The more I learn, the more I realise how naive and blinded I’ve been to the reality of Mormonism. Thanks for everything you shared.

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Posted by: Rameumptom ( )
Date: November 15, 2017 07:31AM

Leaving is painful. Staying in can be painful, too, once you see underbelly. You have to decide what works best for you.

Many, like me, felt compelled to leave, and have found it to be a worthwhile, while difficult journey. But realize that many others have decided to stay. The pews are filled with people who don't believe all of it. They just pick that parts that work for them, and feel free to ignore the rest. This lets you keep friends and lets you worship in a language that is familiar. Of course, those that stay have to be comfortable sitting quietly while someone talks nonsense from the pulpit.

Find the way that feels comfortable for you.

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Posted by: saffainoz ( )
Date: November 17, 2017 08:58PM

Rameumptom Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Leaving is painful. Staying in can be painful,
> too, once you see underbelly. You have to decide
> what works best for you.
>
> Many, like me, felt compelled to leave, and have
> found it to be a worthwhile, while difficult
> journey.
I’m getting to that place where I feel compelled to leave. It is like torture to sit in the meetings, listening to so much nonsense.
I appreciate you sharing this. I know it will be a worthwhile journey too but a difficult one with all my family being in it.

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Posted by: caedmon ( )
Date: November 15, 2017 08:17AM

If TSCC really made "bad men good and good men better" as Hinckley claimed many years ago wouldn't you see evidence of that in the largest Mormon population? Yet Utah has higher rates of prescription drug addiction, suicide, depression, divorce, abuse, and affinity fraud than most.

BTW the biblical quote of "by their fruits" is not a reference to outward behavior. Jesus was referring to the teachings of other groups. It's another discussion but Mormon teachings do not align with mainstream Christianty or the bible.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 11/15/2017 08:18AM by caedmon.

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Posted by: saffainoz ( )
Date: November 17, 2017 09:04PM

caedmon, I’ve heard this about Utah. I’ve never been to Utah and have no intention of ever visiting. It doesn’t sound like a great place to be. Too many Mormons! Thanks for your comment about ‘by their fruits’.
Cheers for now :)

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Posted by: ificouldhietokolob ( )
Date: November 15, 2017 10:21AM

I can cure anyone of any addiction (alcohol, drugs, etc.).
I can cure them of lying, stealing, sexual abuse of others, and pretty much any other "sin."

I can do it by locking them in a prison cell, with no contact with anyone. By denying them any access to alcohol or drugs. Denying them any access to anyone to lie to, anyone to sexually abuse, or steal from.

In less than a year, anyone I do this to will have little or no "ego." They'll be free from all addictions. Their treatment over the year, of being rewarded for being truthful and brutally punished for any lies or 'bad' behavior, will have resulted in a docile, unthinking, broken person desperate for approval by the few people they have contact with, willing to do anything to please them.

So, like the church, I can produce people of "great caliber." Honest, humble, ready to please, free of addiction or rage...or rational thought.

Does that make my method "good?" Should we use my method on the entire population, to produce a nation of "good" people?
I'm betting you don't think so.

It's the same with the church. Its methods aren't much different from mine. Methods of peer approval/condemnation. Indoctrination. Disapproval of dissent or rational thought. Making people desperate to please the leaders who reward/punish them according to their rules.

The church sometimes produces people of "great caliber." That doesn't make their methods "good." Or honest, truthful, or even desirable. There are plenty of other ways to wind up with people of "great caliber" that don't require all the nasty, harmful, abhorrent methods of the church (or my methods, above).

Don't confuse results with the process used to get them. The ends don't justify the means.

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Posted by: Done &. Done ( )
Date: November 15, 2017 10:45AM

Yes. And, yes.

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Posted by: saffainoz ( )
Date: November 17, 2017 11:06PM

I’m starting to see this. Fear is a major component in the church that motivates people to make the great sacrifices they do. Wise words - thanks for your comments.

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Posted by: numbersRus ( )
Date: November 15, 2017 07:57PM

Had you belonged to any one of a number of churches you and your husband might have just as easily gotten help with his temper issues and whatever other help you received as a young couple. In fact, in many other churches, the pastor and counselors are likely trained and licensed, whereas in the LDS, Inc system you have the luck of the draw as far as your untrained bishop, home teachers, whatever.

Other "fruits of Joseph Smith's church" include A $5B Luxury Condo Complex and Shopping Mall, also all the abuses going on in the FLDS Church. They are worshiping the same Prophet Smith, reading his BoM, Fake Book of Abraham, etc.

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Posted by: itzbeen20 ( )
Date: November 15, 2017 08:31PM

...good to the church and everything bad to elsewhere. Yes, there s a lot of bad in the lads church. People get out to get away from it. Are there still good people, yes.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 11/15/2017 08:32PM by itzbeen20.

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Posted by: saffainoz ( )
Date: November 18, 2017 12:14AM

I’m sure you are right but I’m embarrassed to admit that I am only starting to break out of my ‘Mormon world’ and find that there is so much more outside of the bubble I’ve been in.

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Posted by: Felix ( )
Date: November 17, 2017 09:44PM

I'm glad my comments helped in some way. I like and collect quotes as they often contain some truth or wisdom condensed into a few words and often apply to our own situations sometimes. I sometimes wonder if others here enjoy my sighting them here. I have a few quotes that may ring true to your current situation or maybe not. The problem I have is keeping it to just a few.

“The individual has always had to struggle to keep from being overwhelmed by the tribe. If you try it, you will be lonely often, and sometimes frightened. But no price is too high to pay for the privilege of owning yourself.” Friedrich Nietzsche

"I have formed the opinion over the years this notion of false certainty is at the root of much human suffering and huge mistakes. Feelings of certainty on a subject stops people from learning more, questioning assumptions, and leads to simplemindedness." Thinking on RFM

"Freedom is the right to tell people what they do not want to hear." George Orwell

“One of the saddest lessons of history is this: If we’ve been bamboozled long enough, we tend to reject any evidence of the bamboozle. We’re no longer interested in finding out the truth. The bamboozle has captured us. It’s simply too painful to acknowledge, even to ourselves, that we’ve been taken. Once you give a charlatan power over you, you almost never get it back.” Carl Sagan

“Those who are able to see beyond the shadows and lies of their culture will never be understood, let alone believed, by the masses.” -Plato

“But if you are told by your leader to do a thing, do it. None of your business whether it is right or wrong.”—Heber C Kimball, Journal of Discourses, Vol 6, Page 32

“I think no more of taking another wife than I do of buying another cow.” Heber C. Kimball

OK, the last two are out of place here.

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Posted by: saffainoz ( )
Date: November 17, 2017 11:21PM

Thanks Felix
Those quotes are SO applicable right now... except those last two beauties ;)
Things have changed even since my first post on here. Each day I feel that trusting my own intuition is growing stronger. Each day I’m caring less about what others will say or how they will judge me. I have been bamboozled for too long already. And the tribe is very overwhelming. Chatted with a Christian lady today about where my head is at the moment and she was incredibly understanding and non-judgmental. I don’t think the tribe is going to be that gracious :0

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