During my teenage years in the 60s the following scripture was the theme repeated every Mutual night. For those who are younger, Mutual was a weeknight activity for the youth of the ward twelve and older. We all stood and repeated this scripture as a sort of chant or mantra. It still runs through my head.

Book of Mormon - Book of Moroni:
Verse 4
And when ye shall receive these things, I would exhort you that ye would ask God, the Eternal Father, in the name of Christ, if these things are not true; and if ye shall ask with a sincere heart, with real intent, having faith in Christ, he will manifest the truth of it unto you, by the power of the Holy Ghost.

Verse 5
And by the power of the Holy Ghost ye may know the truth of all things.

But having studied my way out of the church I realize this passage can work in other ways. The key phrase I focus on is "the truth of all things." Truth is a nebulous term. I prefer the word Facts. I don't believe in the Holy Ghost, but even after fifty years that still, small voice is still hovering in my head. It could be some form of post-mormon psychosis, but probably not. It's more like a post-hypnotic trance. Now I realize that my brain has switched on and I get a feeling of satisfaction (not Holy Ghosty stuff) that now I understand truth (facts). Real truth (facts). Not the official statements of the church that I'd been fed all my life.

You paid attention???

"As for me and my house, we were busy picking up Sis. Anderson's VW and putting it on the front steps of the chapel."
- - Judic West, Pervert to the Most High

elderolddog Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> You paid attention???
>
> "As for me and my house, we were busy picking up
> Sis. Anderson's VW and putting it on the front
> steps of the chapel."
> - - Judic West, Pervert to the Most High


I admit it. I paid attention and chanted, but didn't have a clue what it meant. Mea culpa.

Truth is a nebulous term... And holy ghost too, It became the influence of the devil when you feel that you must do something that your Bishop, SP or some high priest don't want you to do it (then you'll listen the famous words: because the spirit, which is in me told me...).



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 10/27/2017 01:45PM by luckylucas.

" if these things are not true "

Heavenly Father, are these things not true?

Yes, these things are not true.

No, these things are not true.

Either way, the answer comes out as being not true. I sometimes wonder if Joseph Smith was playing a joke on everyone there.

(I know, I know. It's just a weird way of asking if they're true, or not, but really, it is funny the way it comes out if you literally ask it that way.)

Greyfort Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> " if these things are not true "
>
> Heavenly Father, are these things not true?
>
> Yes, these things are not true.
>
> No, these things are not true.
>
> Either way, the answer comes out as being not
> true. I sometimes wonder if Joseph Smith was
> playing a joke on everyone there.
>
> (I know, I know. It's just a weird way of asking
> if they're true, or not, but really, it is funny
> the way it comes out if you literally ask it that
> way.)

This can really tangle up in one's head. If not these not things are not true or are not untrue. Not!

Until someone pointed the wording out, I did not see the "not" for what it was.

Yes, Joseph Smith was being upfront in a clever way without people paying attention!

are these things not true?

Yes! They are not true!

Exactly. I pointed that out to a TBM friend. She was not amused.

I have a hard time when I think about the feelings I had that I thought was the Holy Ghost. I was a teen, a time when feelings can be very strong. What I felt was real, yet there is no way that Mormonism can be true.

Joseph Smith understood how feelings can work in people. He knew he could manipulate the human tendency to get all excited about things to get them to feel like they are receiving answers from the Holy Ghost. The longing of people in that time period was to find the truth about God.

When I visit other churches, I often experience spiritual feelings. They do NOT feel the same as the old Mormon Holy Ghost sensations that I once had. Yet I know that feelings alone cannot be relied on. I've learned my lesson about that! I know that I have to study, research background.

I have not given up on spirituality. I think it is cruel that Joseph Smith, with his Book of Mormon, has ruined the trust of many people in all things spiritual. So many are terrified of ever trusting again. Yet I feel that the spiritual aspect of human longing is there for a reason. I hope that ex-Mormons can reach a point where they dare to explore once again.

The promise in Moroni is worded such that a member is always at fault, always guilted and shamed. If a member does not receive the "feeling" then they are lacking a sincere heart, real intent, and faith in Jesus Christ. And, does this mean that they are lacking one, two, or all 3 of these? Plus, where is a sincere heart, real intent and faith in Jesus Christ described? What do they even mean?

I was never comfortable with these statements in the BofM. I felt like I was being coralled....and as a young person I had no idea yet how right on the mark my thinking was.

Moroni's "Promise" is how individuals are kept in the Church even though they have doubts about what is being taught. The moment we feel that we have asked God with a sincere heart, with real intent, having faith in Christ, are emotions and minds take over to convince us that he has answered our prayers. We then judge our convictions with pros and cons and realize the costs would be too much to bear if we follow what we have come to realize. The realization that we can never know, without a doubt, that the gospel is true.

Does anyome remember the godawful song?

How blind are those who think that God cares nothing for his own,

Who fail to see the answers fro, the prohets who've been shown.

Who fail to see the meanings written deep upon each page.,

Youth who have been blinded by what was another's age . . .

Heed Moroni's promise.

Pray and seek it through,

And the spirit will bear witneess that the Book of Mormon's true.


There is more, but I will spare you. It's funny, but you can't seem to find that song ANYWHERE now. There's another song by the same name, but it has no resemblance to the orginal. I wonder if there was something doctrinally incorrect in one of the verses, or if the composer/author fell out of favor, or if the consensus was simply that the song sucked to such a degree that it couldn't be allowed to continue.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 10/27/2017 09:43PM by scmd.

Check this out...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FJg-kECOj5g

scmd Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Does anyome remember the godawful song?
>
> How blind are those who think that God cares
> nothing for his own,
>
> Who fail to see the answers fro, the prohets
> who've been shown.
>
> Who fail to see the meanings written deep upon
> each page.,
>
> Youth who have been blinded by what was another's
> age . . .
>
> Heed Moroni's promise.
>
> Pray and seek it through,
>
> And the spirit will bear witneess that the Book of
> Mormon's true.
>
>
> There is more, but I will spare you. It's funny,
> but you can't seem to find that song ANYWHERE now.
> There's another song by the same name, but it has
> no resemblance to the orginal. I wonder if there
> was something doctrinally incorrect in one of the
> verses, or if the composer/author fell out of
> favor, or if the consensus was simply that the
> song sucked to such a degree that it couldn't be
> allowed to continue.

One of the things that bothered me about Mormonism was the certainty of its members. As I once confessed here, I created a Morgasm deliberately to demonstrate how faithful I was. For a while, I actually knew the church was true. Hell, every active Mormon KNOWS the church is true.

As I entered into my 20s, my doubts started to arise. I knew I really didn’t know it was true, but figured it was just that I was a horny kid who couldn’t stop strangling the chicken. Therefore, God wasn’t bound to tell me it was true, I wasn’t deserving of it.

In retrospect, the cult’s mindfucks were amazing! Tell folks that they will KNOW, but weave in that they have to be perfect, or they won’t be worthy of the Holy Ghost revealing the truth. Folks will always claim to know, even though they don’t. Fucked up, but brilliant for control! Da Bone.

I feel for you. Mormon brainwashing is strong

I guess I missed that memo....never read the B of M...

Howdy Tom! Welcome back.

About 25 years ago, I was mostly out of the Morg, but worried about my family. My wife said to me, "But, what if it is true?"

I thought it was pure bullshit. But, unbeknown to her, I decided to put Moroni's challenge to the test.

I drove up high up to the mountains where I would have privacy. I got on my knees and prayed out loud begging God to give me a testimony. I also poured my heart out concerning the ramifications of what would happened to me and my family if I left the church. I acknowledged that I felt Mormonism was wrong about my understandings of basic Christianity. I was willing to give the church a second try, if I just felt it was true. I didn't ask for a sign, only a reassurance that Mormonism was true and the Book of Mormon was what it claimed to be...

A while later, after a long period of silence, I stood up and breathed the scent of the mountains and felt that heady mix of sunlight, clear air, and a light breeze.

So, I said aloud. Mormonism isn't what it claims to be. I'm going to have to figure out how to live without Mormonism in my life.

I saw an acorn, I picked it up and put it in my pocket. The acorn is sitting on my office shelf as a reminder that I put Moroni's promise to the test. In the end, all I felt was peace that Mormonism was false.

Big bro hugs, Tom!



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 01/28/2018 05:30PM by BYU Boner.

BYU Boner Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Howdy Tom! Welcome back.
>
> About 25 years ago, I was mostly out of the Morg,
> but worried about my family. My wife said to me,
> "But, what if it is true?"
>
> I thought it was pure bullshit. But, unbeknown to
> her, I decided to put Moroni's challenge to the
> test.
>
> I drove up high up to the mountains where I would
> have privacy. I got on my knees and prayed out
> loud begging God to give me a testimony. I also
> poured my heart out concerning the ramifications
> of what would happened to me and my family if I
> left the church. I acknowledged that I felt
> Mormonism was wrong about my understandings of
> basic Christianity. I was willing to give the
> church a second try, if I just felt it was true. I
> didn't ask for a sign, only a reassurance that
> Mormonism was true and the Book of Mormon was what
> it claimed to be...
>
> A while later, after a long period of silence, I
> stood up and breathed the scent of the mountains
> and felt that heady mix of sunlight, clear air,
> and a light breeze.
>
> So, I said aloud. Mormonism isn't what it claims
> to be. I'm going to have to figure out how to live
> without Mormonism in my life.
>
> I saw an acorn, I picked it up and put it in my
> pocket. The acorn is sitting on my office shelf as
> a reminder that I put Moroni's promise to the
> test. In the end, all I felt was peace that
> Mormonism was false.
>
> Big bro hugs, Tom!

It works better if you read the whole BoM first. Although, if you had any sense, you'd put it down after the first few verses of word salad.

A nevermo perspective might be helpful here.

The verse itself is harmless.

The way it's presented is subtle coercion. You're all chanting it. The group effect, expectations, etc. There's really no option for you to say no.

The framing strikes me as clever.

1. If you don't see the truth it's your fault. You failed to get it. You didn't ask God right, you didn't have a sincere heart, etc.

2. If you don't get it yet, you will later. Just keep asking! So "no" is transmuted into "not yet".

3. Effectively you're asked to convince yourself. If you haven't convinced yourself it's your fault.

4. Questions are fine! But only unworthy people will arrive at a "no" answer.

A nevermo perspective might also include: that's a lot of pressure to believe! Or at least act like you do. And a lot of social engineering.

I, too, remember how much we were drilled in the 50s and 60s about Moroni's promise. We used it all the time to challenge investigators when I was a missionary.

It always bothered me that the conclusion was set - the only possible answer to study, pray, and attend Church was that the Book of Mormon and the Church were true. If you didn't get an answer or if you got the wrong answer it was because you didn't do it right. You didn't pray hard enough or long enough, you didn't study enough or studied the wrong things, or (the big one) you weren't living worthy of an answer. You could never get the answer that the B of M was not true.

"and if ye shall ask with a sincere heart, with real intent,
having faith in Christ, he will manifest the truth of it unto
you, by the power of the Holy Ghost."

is very similar to

"Anyone who is not a fool can see the Emperor's new clothes."

I remember that one and I never prayed about it because I didn't

want to know. If I had done it and got the answer that the church

was true, I would have had to try to be a good mormon and I was

a teenager and wasn't ready to devote myself to a boring, strict

religion. It was my avoidance behavior. Mostly it worked.