In this morning's Salt Lake Tribune is an article titled: "Historian offers peek at church finances". D. Michael Quinn says: "church financial story is faith-promoting". The article says that mormons and non-mormons alike were appalled to see the church build a billion dollar mall and then hear Monson say: "Let's go shopping"! Quinn says that critics don't understand that the church needs to feed both spiritual and physical needs of it's people. Yep, I really need that Tiffany's $500 pocket book! He said: "It's as spiritual to give alms to the poor,as it is to make a million dollars". He said that in 2010, the church took in about 33 billion dollars in tithing. Please! Someone explain to me how this is anyway spiritual!

Fat finger accidentally hit [Post]



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 10/15/2017 11:47AM by Mnemonic.

It is a mirror to reflect you away from the TRUE issues

They love those mirrors.

Commerce can be spiritual. The tech industry and internet brought you instant access to all the dirty little secrets of Mormonism.

The church doesn't go out of its way to give alms to the poor unless its doing a PR op.

Making millions of dollars is the business of a corporation. Which we know the business of the church is building wealth for the few, not saints.

Whoever holds the reins of power controls that wealth. That's a heady power rush to those egomaniacs, more than helping any poor.

They subsidize them from their for profit businesses and US donations

http://www.sltrib.com/religion/local/2017/10/15/records-reveal-how-money-from-utah-and-us-mormons-props-up-lds-operations-overseas/

I am an employee at a large international company that grosses less than 33 billion dollars annually. I realized recently that my employer does more to help me be a better person and to benefit my life, than the church ever did. They don't tolerate illegal or immoral forms of discrimination. If you want to have a stable job, a part of what is required is treating others with respect. Initiative is rewarded. Merit of performance is required. As a publicly traded company, they subscribe to generally accepted accounting practices, which provides full disclosure of all finances. Everyone knows how much the CEO and other executive managers make (including stock and other benefits). The company pays a lot in taxes. The point is that a good company can do more for its employees and for society, than the church ever does. Whereas, the church is more like a parasite on society.

I agree with this. Every major corporation I have worked for does more to promote honest, ethical and respectful behavior than the church ever has.

I work in the defense industry, which people might think is a haven for conservative white guys, but those people might be surprised. (Yes, liberals, women, gays and black people believe in national defense too. Shocking, I know.) We don't want to lose a top notch software engineer because some asshole harassed her over her transgender status. The company will fire that jerk before they let that happen. They'll also fire your ass before they allow you to engage in any unethical or dishonest behavior.

I had a team member send out an email, copied to the entire department, complaining that the winter holiday social wasn't being called what it "should" be. The poor soul felt persecuted because the word "Christmas" was not included in the description. She received a stern reply from me, where I attempted to open her blind eyes to the fact that there were several Jews, Hindus and, gasp!, even atheists in the department who deserved to be invited to the party too. She didn't last at the company much longer.

Transparency and respect have been hallmark values in every large company I've worked for. The church, on the other hand, values secrecy and rejection of those who are different.

One of the joyous wonders of being a True Church is that we get to be called True as a result of being completely honest, transparent, and truthful about our glorious doctrines, finances, statistics, and history :) It's because of how hard all the missionaries, members, and leaders up to the highest ranks work so super hard to be as quickly and completely honest/transparent about everything that we are able to establish credibility and trust towards getting people to seriously consider our message. Thus transparency/honesty must be our primary selling points :)

If ever any member/missionary/leader were to try to be anything less than this in real-time then people would rightfully entertain Doubts and quickly be on some other path than that which the Brethren prescribe for us all. The blessed condition they seek for us all to obtain is to be completely obedient to them. However if it wasn't for super honesty/transparency about our wondrous Church and its unchangeable never changing eternal doctrines then people would quickly start thinking that the Church is not true and that its a fraud run by a bunch of old clueless men who so many people just blindly and ignorantly follow.

I'd question it all myself except for the fact I've been well-conditioned by the marvelous and super effective Correlation program to just obey so that the power/glory of the Brethren in their stewardships can grow in power while people like me can be well-reminded what little pieces of dung we really are in comparison. So I guess that's what I'm supposed to do if the Brethren are correct. And why in the world would anyone ever suspect that they would deceive people just so they could have more power/dominion and feel good about themselves? Hmmmm I better not answer that question because it might cause a Doubt to form.

I like how you capitalized the word "Doubt", as if it is some kind of formidable entity, to be feared and respected.

No doubt about it!

Is DMQ trying to flatter his way back into the church's good graces? Or was he being sarcastic?



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 10/15/2017 07:42PM by waunderdog.

He must've been openly sarcastic since he was excommunicated a long time ago, and is now openly gay.

But if I remember correctly, he says he still believes in mormonism... which is difficult to understand.

What the church does with money actually doesn't concern me as much as how it gets its money in the first place.

I'm in no way impressed with how the church uses its money. There's no way I'll ever see the church's financial story as "faith promoting." What bothers me more is how the church insists upon ten percent tithing from all its members, even those who can least afford it.

Tithing is the first commandment in Mormonism. Members can't be full participants in the faith and go to the temple unless they pay. They won't make it to the Celestial Kingdom unless they pay. If they don't make it to the C.K., they can't be with their families in the hereafter. It's nothing less than extortion. To me, that's worse than the fact that the church could be spending more on charity than it does.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 10/17/2017 02:58PM by want2bx.

What amazes me about the church is how they were broke flatter than pee on a plate most of t he time..right up till they quit reporting finances...musta cut a deal with the devil cuz she s been full steam ahead ever since...like good ol Gordy said at one conference ...I wish I could tell you what great shape the church is in financially...well why can't ya Gordy...cat got your tongue or does Stan require ndas??...next time someone justifies the stipend as being such a sacrifice cuz these codgers made so much money before...imma ask them how Gordy and tommy both became so wealthy never working anywhere but the church...it's not what you know...Gordy was king of the bull shippers for sure...that old gramps gig really worked for he lying old sot...you can buy anything with money but decency and a conscience

Although it turned out okay after a few decades, David O. McKay is the one who had to kick Henry D. Moyle out of the First presidency because of him getting the church so involved in land and real estate speculation, that they couldn't provide the members with any real numbers like... We own almost a quarter of Hawaii (Baldwin Ranch, North shore of Oahu, etc...) we own almost a quarter of the "good island" of New Zealand. We own almost a quarter of Florida. but we owe banks and lenders all of the money that was used to buy these lands. Sounds kinda like Trump's business acumen. Borrow and build using someone else's money; then claim bankruptcy so you don't have to pay them off.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/David_O._McKay
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Henry_D._Moyle

https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2012-07-18/how-the-mormons-make-money

Make sure on the Bloomberg article you read all seven pages, because they point out that only about 3% of all tithing is actually used in charitable causes.

Quinn’s tithing estimate of $33 billion looks spurious.
Most back-of-an-envelope projections using currently published numbers would peg it between $5 and $7 billion per annum - which is still an awful lot of money in comparison to the $40 million a year Oaks claims the Church spends on humanitarian (helping the poor and needy) programmes.

From time to time people investigating the Church will have doubts/concerns over whether or not the Church is true - i.e. an honest/transparent organization. I just encourage them to start off in seeing how awesomely transparent the Church is on their finances. This could start with requesting the hyperlinks to their cash flow, revenue/expenses, and asset/liabilities/equity financial statements globally & by nation for the past decade :) Then as you read over all the documentation then tears of joy may flood your eyes as you think to yourself "wow what a super amazingly honest and transparent Church; and I would like to learn more so I can find out if its a true Church".

I must say, I'm getting a great kick and laugh out of your irony and sarcasm. Please keep it up!!! Love you Honest TBM (wait? honest TBM? Is that kind of like "army intelligence" and a pun in itself?)

As a critic, I do understand that it takes money to run a church, or any other organization. I even understand that some of the people you have running it need to get paid (even handsomely) to keep things going right. I even think it is fine for a church to invest, so that they can cover future needs (pension benefits, building maintenance etc.)

But the LDS financial story is not faith promoting from my point of view:

1) The LDS Church has no transparency. We don't know what they do with the money--that suggests a potential for abuse. If the pot is big enough, you can appear to do a lot with the organization and take a lot of fat off the top--especially because people so readily volunteer their labor.

2) Rank and file members have no voice on how funds are spent (inside or outside their ward). The unelected leaders choose at every level.

3) The LDS Church really puts its members over the barrel to get tithing. It is required for a temple recommend. What's more it's 10%--no matter if you're Mitt Romney or Joe Sixpack.

4) When the LDS Church sponsors business enterprises directly (like the mall) it can diminish the spiritual capacity of its leaders. When Monson dedicates a shopping mall, he looks like just another CEO or fund manager. Who wants to endure the privations of a mission for such a schmuck?! In the LDS Church its arguable that the mission to make money has, at least in some corners, supplanted any spiritual objective.