Hello everyone,

Quick background on me: I am a senior at BYU graduating in April. I'm pre-med, already applied to schools and am just waiting for interviews. I am extremely happily married to a TBM who knows that I've been struggling for some time now. A couple of my siblings have left the church recently, stirred up some old doubts of mine and ultimately got me investigating and researching again.
If you're curious about where my doubts started, feel free to ask and I can explain later. Long story short, I had a final "aha" moment when comparing Fairmormon's response to Letter to my wife. My wife and I have planned a time to sit down so we can discuss my feelings about this. To be honest, my goal is NOT to convince her to feel the same way. My real goal is to stress that she is more important to me than any of this and our relationship is my first priority.

Here's the situation. I don't exactly understand the recent policy changes at BYU regarding Mormon students leaving the faith while in school. Here are my questions surrounding that and some other basics.

1. Would I be risking expulsion by opening up to my Bishop and Stake President? I'm in a married student ward, ps.
2. Recommendations for explaining to my wife?
3. Would I be better off playing along till I graduate? If so, how the crap do you put up with lying to yourself for so long?

Those are just a couple of questions on my mind. Any help would be much appreciated.

I had the "aha" moment 2 years into my BS at BYU.

1. Would I be risking expulsion by opening up to my Bishop and Stake President? I'm in a married student ward, ps.

> Yes, this could open a can of worms, they could hold transcripts, etc.

2. Recommendations for explaining to my wife?

> Just what you said above.

3. Would I be better off playing along till I graduate? If so, how the crap do you put up with lying to yourself for so long?

> Yes, play along and finish your degree. You have much invested in it, the church doesn't, and the church can crush it in a second. The church has lied to you, you can "lie" to yourself just long enough to get what is yours and get out.

Jonny the Smoke, I take it you held out till you finished your degree? I'm in a bit of a bind because my Bishop has been "working" with me for a while. I brought up some doubts to him and we meet occasionally. May start getting awkward...

Yes, I held out and got my degree. I attended meetings as little as possible, just enough to get my last endorsement.

They can't do anything for expressing doubts to your bishop, as far as I know. I would tell the bishop you're doing your research to doubt your doubts as the apostles have advised, reading FAIR, church approved stuff....you could do that too and not be lying....and ride it out. Keep your head low, just blend in. As long as you keep the honor code and get the endorsement, you should be fine, doubts and all. But I would keep those doubts to yourself going forward. Less is more in this case. Good luck.

Just tell the bishop that you've decided to shelf your doubts for now, that you need space to just accept the church for what it is. Then just lay low (and accept the church for what it is--a social club). But your best option is to play along and graduate. It won't be long and you have a wonderful life ahead of you. Enjoy the break from the guilt trips and just laugh to yourself when you hear nonsense.

Be very, very,very careful about your next steps. THEY control the paperwork you need to go forward. Priority 1 is get the degree and the diploma and all related documentation. Pull in the wings, the horns and the claws! After you have all of the above then make your move.

I had the "aha" moment junior year at BYU. This was decades ago,Oaks was President, but I knew to fly under the radar and keep it to myself. I had a friend who was expelled at the end of his senior year and had to sue for his transcripts. He was successful because the church didn't want press.

Just because it's "nowadays" and the Mormons are pretending to be different than then, don't buy it.

Play along until you graduate. Play along until you graduate. Play along until you graduate.

Keep the talk with your wife in the "doubts and struggling" range for now and leave the heavy discussions for after graduation. Having integrity doesn't mean you are obligated to divulge every thought you are having. It is okay to let every thing gel and then fall in place before laying your cards on the table. Integrity means you get to choose where and when to reveal yourself. You don't owe anybody any information.

Done & Done Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> I had the "aha" moment junior year at BYU. This
> was decades ago,Oaks was President, but I knew to
> fly under the radar and keep it to myself. I had a
> friend who was expelled at the end of his senior
> year and had to sue for his transcripts. He was
> successful because the church didn't want press.


Sheesh! I can't believe he had to SUE for his transcripts. That is seriously terrifying.

Anyways, thoughts on what to tell my bishop considering he is most likely going to want to chat with me again sometime soon? Like how do I fake a mediocre level of doubt?? Or maybe I just tell him I'm back to "normal," bright eyed and bushy testimonied.

Ask to postpone the talk, but ask a couple of days ahead, and tell him you'll get back to him... Wave to him on Sundays. He's busy enough that he won't push you to reset. If he does, tell him you have yo check back with RfM first...

Your bishop doesn't really want to deal with this anymore than you do. He is eager to pat himself on the back for solving your "little problem." He is going to suck up anything you say. Just say the more you have prayed and continue to read the scriptures the more you feel good about everything, that a peace is coming over you. They love that stuff. He doesn't need to know that what you feel good about is discovering the fraud while you are young. (I have never had such a feeling of pure joy as my "aha"moment--it made the rest of my beautiful life possible.)

Unless your bishop is the kind of bishop who is hungry to have his first court of love and put his first notch in his Quad, it will go well.

Tell the bishop that you are studying material from FAIR and your questions are being answered and your doubts are resolved (which is all technically true). Then just play the game until you have graduated. Don't express doubts to anyone else until graduation.

I'm posting late into the discussion so I don't know if you will see this or not but what I would do is tell my bishop that I realized that everything that is causing me doubts related to Church history and changing doctrine was known by members that lived during the time this was occurring and if they were able to know these things and still maintain their testimonies then I am going to also work at maintaining my testemony even though I know these things. Tell him that the things that are causing you the most problems you will just set aside until your testimony is stronger. Then just go thru the motions. You might even find the bishop has you counsel others that are going thru the same trouble.

1. Stay away from the bishop and SP.

2. By all means, have a respectful conversation with your wife. Depending on how that goes, you may want to then shut up about it until April, especially if she tends toward a desire to talk to the bishop or SP about things. You should discourage this if she brings it up. Tell her that you're not ready to elevate it beyond the two of you. Keep your thoughts away from any busy bodyou friends and family who may cause you trouble as well. At least until you graduate.

3. Absolutely yes, go along to get along until April, then break free, especially if your wife is on the same page.

Humberto Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> 2. By all means, have a respectful conversation
> with your wife. Depending on how that goes, you
> may want to then shut up about it until April,
> especially if she tends toward a desire to talk to
> the bishop or SP about things. You should
> discourage this if she brings it up. Tell her that
> you're not ready to elevate it beyond the two of
> you. Keep your thoughts away from any busy bodyou
> friends and family who may cause you trouble as
> well. At least until you graduate.


Great advice here. What aspects of our conversation would determine whether or not I keep quiet about it until post-graduation? Do you mean if she freaks out, shut up about it till then? Or what were you thinking there?

I would say just play along until you get your transcripts and degree, as there have been cases where they've punished apostates by withholding their degrees.

When I had "the talk" with my tbm wife, I came across as devastated about the information that I came across about the church. I tried to not be combative when she would bring up a point, but just acted like I was sick to my stomach for finding out the church wasn't what I thought.

She was a little more sympathetic to my feelings knowing I wasn't throwing facts out in anger and that she knew I had not taken my findings lightly. Slow is better.

Mighty Buffalo:

Do absolutely nothing to affect medical school application, interview or acceptance. Even with acceptance they are usually offered based on graduation and maintaining GPA. In short play along. Everyone above says same thing. Your wife may or may not be a conduit to your bishop or stake president. I don’t think you know st this point and frankly it isn’t worth finding out till May.

On a more practical note have a plan B. When I was on a med school admissions committee about 1/3 of the eventual admissions were second time applicants who strengthened their application with graduate degrees or graduate courses. Apply widely although it is expensive. Diversity is the catch word these days and there is some aspect of your life- presumptions made RM,male, Caucasian- that will go against you and some aspects of your life that a southern or eastern med school will look at. Private schools care less about that crap- Emory, University of Chicago, Miami. If you speak another language that is a great plus.

Keep your thoughts to yourself till May

Gatorman

Be aware that many TBM spouses will "rally the troops." They want the sympathy from their friends for the horrible situation they suddenly find themselves in with an apostate spouse. This is a natural human tendency.

There should only ever be two in a marriage. Many marriages have been ruined by "friends giving advice." Friends are not welcome in the marriage and that goes double for TBM friends. Tell your wife that because you love her more than anything and that what you need most is for this to be you two in your marriage together, working together, sharing together like it is supposed to be.

Just do everything you can to show how much that she is the priority over everything else.

Mightybuffalo,

I am 60 years old. I have much life experience and I am telling you this from my years of experience. I was in a bishopric, I held stake positions, I know how the church works and thinks and I can tell you the church does not care about you as an individual it only cares about it's self and how it appears to the world. If you come out at this point the church will have absolutely no problem taking everything from you. Just hold everything in until you finish your degree don't even talk to your wife about it right now. Just pull back and pretend that all is well because one wrong move right now and the church could take everything from you.

I understand it is hard lying to your wife that you love but you must because if she goes to friends and word spreads you could lose everything, that is a very real possibility and one that you do not want to experience. Just put back on your Peter Priesthood hat and pretend that you are TBM and finish your degree. Once you have that paper in hand then you can think about talking to your wife and moving on but until you have that paper in hand don't do it because you will lose.

I am sure this is not what you wanted to hear because you are living a lie right now but you have too much invested to lose it all right now. Once you have your degree then you can think about being true to yourself. Be prepared to lose your wife. Depending on how TBM she truly is it is a very real possibility. Where the church is involved they will have no problem counseling her to leave you once you tell her. It happened to me and many people I know. I am no longer married to my first wife of 30 years and the main reason is because of the church. It worked out for me because I am now married to the absolute love of my life but everyone is not so lucky. When you do finally talk to her about it go slow and give her time to digest what you are telling her. It is a big shock for her to learn that what she has believed in her whole life is a lie and it will take time to digest that but it can happen. If your love is strong she will come around eventually but don't push too hard just give her time.

The main thing to do right now though is just forget your doubts and pretend until you finish your degree and have that diploma. Once you have graduated then you can deal with your personal issues but if you do it now you could lose everything. Sorry buddy but that is the way it is.

Old Non Mormon

This ^^^^^^^ plus 1,000,000. The Gman had exactly the same church positions as this man above and I concur they could care less about you or affecting your career if you come out at this time. Been there bud. LISTEN!!!

Gatorman

One more item. Should you get interviews be prepared to be grilled about gay and lesbian issues, abortion and racial history. Some interviewers take pride in beating some kid down and seeing if he will stand up or cave in. Have honest answers for those things. “ It will all be clarified in the afterlife” isn’t going to be a good one to use..

Gatorman

Oldnonmormon and gatorman have it.

Gatorman, for those interview things you list, race gay, blacks, is "I have decided to have faith in the leaders of the church to handle these delicate matters," a good answer?

I was thinking it could be good in an interview to blame those topics for any doubts and not refer to the real problems with history and doctrine?

No. Better to state your own position and defend it, not the brethren. HIE are you lurking? HIE interviews for business. Any thoughts HIE? Boner also interviews students. Boner my man any wisdom?

Gman

The catch 22 potential for this kid is enormous. If he comes out apostate his graduation is threatened. If he comes out and survives and doesn’t get into med school it is because he is apostate.

I can see the interview now.

Faculty: Why do you discriminate against gays?

Student: I don’t

Faculty: You have been paying tuition to the flagship university of a church that does and you are a member of same church. How do you defend your hypocrisy?

Gatorman

gatorman Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> The catch 22 potential for this kid is enormous.
> If he comes out apostate his graduation is
> threatened. If he comes out and survives and
> doesn’t get into med school it is because he is
> apostate.
>
> I can see the interview now.
>
> Faculty: Why do you discriminate against gays?
>
> Student: I don’t
>
> Faculty: You have been paying tuition to the
> flagship university of a church that does and you
> are a member of same church. How do you defend
> your hypocrisy?
>
> Gatorman


Gatorman you are nailing exactly what I am feeling. I have purposefully hinted at my separation from the church in my medical school applications and if it didn't quite hit home, I'm making preparations to be bold and blunt about this to admissions councils. That being said, sometimes I also wonder if my chances are better at all being a good little mormon boy who naively obeys these crazy ideas....and people. Since you have some experience on admissions councils any experience with accepting mormons into your schools?

Mighty Buffalo, this is excellent advice from the above posters. Once upon a time, BYU conferred two degrees on me. Later, I formally resigned from the church. BYU cannot take back the dgreees, period. Never give someone power over you or your life. The Boner.

mightybuffalo Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> gatorman Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > The catch 22 potential for this kid is
> enormous.
> > If he comes out apostate his graduation is
> > threatened. If he comes out and survives and
> > doesn’t get into med school it is because he
> is
> > apostate.
> >
> > I can see the interview now.
> >
> > Faculty: Why do you discriminate against gays?
> >
> > Student: I don’t
> >
> > Faculty: You have been paying tuition to the
> > flagship university of a church that does and
> you
> > are a member of same church. How do you defend
> > your hypocrisy?
> >
> > Gatorman
>
>
> Gatorman you are nailing exactly what I am
> feeling. I have purposefully hinted at my
> separation from the church in my medical school
> applications and if it didn't quite hit home, I'm
> making preparations to be bold and blunt about
> this to admissions councils. That being said,
> sometimes I also wonder if my chances are better
> at all being a good little mormon boy who naively
> obeys these crazy ideas....and people. Since you
> have some experience on admissions councils any
> experience with accepting mormons into your
> schools?

Unbeknownst to the goons at BYU, I affiliated with a few national organizations with liberal leanings, including PFLAG, and noted them under "Volunteerism" on my curriculum vitae. I worked with the organizations at the national rather than at the local level to keep BYU out of the loop regarding my personal business, though I'm not sure it would have mattered. It's always a gamble in revealing personal leanings on a resume, but when you're a prospective BYU grad and don't necessarily want to attend a fundie or Catholic grad program, it's usually a good thing. It paid off for me because I was accepted at both Stanford and University of California - SF. (Loma Linda, on the other hand, did not want me.) I chose U of U only because my wife had a teaching job in a district that agreed to provide classroom coverage when she needed it to attend law school courses in exchange for her services in performing psychoeducational testing (she has a master's in educational psychology and is licensed to administer most of the standard intelligence and modality batteries) on her own time.

Which medical schools are asking questions about racial and sexual preference issues? No one asked me anything remotely like that in multiple medical school and residency interviews. And this was in the early 80’s when the sting of the church’s racial policy was still present.

Particles of Faith Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Which medical schools are asking questions about
> racial and sexual preference issues? No one asked
> me anything remotely like that in multiple medical
> school and residency interviews. And this was in
> the early 80’s when the sting of the church’s
> racial policy was still present.


Perhaps I misunderstood the comments, but I took them to mean that interviewees might be asked about one's feelings concerning the races and/or sexual preferences of others rather than about one's own ethnicity or sexual preferences. I wasn't asked about these issues, but some members of an interview panel might ask questions to clarify whether a prospective BYU graduate carried prejudices typical of those historically embraced by members of the COJCOLDS.

I advise you to stay in the herd for now. Don't linger too long at the watering hole.

You can gradually start talking to your wife, but you must not open up to the bishop or to anyone who would rat you out. Good luck.

The risk is too great. You said your out of school in April. Wait until you have that paper in your hands.

I've been almost in your exact situation. (My BYU student fiance at the time was a nevermo; that's the only significant difference. We married one month after she graduated, as i completed year 1 of med school.) I graduated from BYU and matriculated to U of U School of Medicine.

You have too much at stake to get caught up in their ecclesiastical endorsement nonsense. Play the game for another six months. If there's any way you can do so, you may wish to transfer out of the student ward. Family ward bishops are more tied up in the business of "helping" struggling families and are less concerned with prying into the spirituality-as-it-pertains-to-ecclesiastical-endorsements nonsense of BYU. I suspect BYU student ward bishops are told specifically to watch out for anyone who may be remaining on the fringe just to stay in BYU.

I hope your wife doesn't feel the need to be especially frank in interviews with a bishop when he questions her about you. Take any Sunday off that you must for the sake for your GPA, but for the most part you would do well to appear to be a good little soldier for God's Army just until the degree is entered on your transcript. If for some reason (I'm crossing my fingers that you don't) you need an additional year to apply to med schools, still play it marginally safe so that the goons don't red-flag your transcript (with what they could red-flag it, I wouldn't know) but for the most part, you're good to GO once your degree is posted. Once you're into med school, you never have to look back.

I began to have my serious doubts just before graduating BYU. Ironically, just as that was starting the EQP had the inspiration to call me as his first counselor. So much for inspiration!

The LDS Church misrepresented itself to you. How you get out of being screwed over like this is up to you, but you don't have to feel guilty trying to secure your degree. You put in all the work, and deserve it. As others have noted, be very careful what you do, and wrap it up and graduate as soon as you can.

I hadn't resolved to leave the LDS Church at that time, but it was looking like a real possibility by graduation day. It was a real weird thing walking across that stage knowing it was very likely I would not live out my life as a Mormon.

That turned out to be true.

I can't let this moment pass without--ugh--bearing my testimonkey: You can live a good life on the outside. It gets better once you leave that space in between where you are a non-believing member. There's going to be some times where the spaghetti will hit the fan, but you can get through all that and live according to your own values.

Good luck!

You've gotten good advice from 2 MD's. One older, one "wet behind the ears". Both agreed. KEEP YOUR HEAD DOWN!!!

Be vaguely reassuring when questioned. Quote the bretheren. I'm doubting my doubts. Those issues are for my shelf, right now I'm focusing on my degree/wife/covenants. It'll all be sorted out in the hereafter.

Get goods grades. Slay the MCAT if you haven't already. Smile to you wife and tell her how lucky you are (and mean it).

You and the church are fighting for the same thing - your life. The difference, is you only have one; they have millions. They've been lying; you haven't. It's time you worry about you, and tell them their own lies. It sucks, but you have to play the cards you're holding.

Good luck, you certainly need it.

Long story short, LDS students are not allowed to resign from the church and remain at BYU. It could put a nasty black mark on your transcript. A possible "Honor Code violation" means something else entirely to non-church schools than it does to BYU. Medical schools may very well think that you got caught plagiarizing or cheating.

You have too much at stake to take risks. Do what is expected of you and get your diploma (once your degree posts, you are good to go.) One of the apostles (Dieter?) gave a "doubt your doubts" talk at a general conference -- if your bishop asks, tell him that someone shared the talk with you and you have decided to take the apostle's counsel to heart. After that, if he asks, say that everything is *fine*. Honestly, he doesn't need to know. Don't put your endorsement at risk.

As for meetings, perhaps put some reading material on a small tablet. As far as anyone else is concerned, you are reading scripture.

You know your wife better than we do. It might be best to delay the critical conversation with her as well.

For Pete's sake, *don't* get your wife pregnant. That will only complicate things. Come up with some excuse.

Good luck to you. You have a bright future ahead of you.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 10/13/2017 06:46PM by summer.

And don't get your wife pregnant in the mean time.

You are in a quagmire. The best thing to do is to keep your mouth shut. The Brethren and all the leaders down are not going to respect you for being forthright that you think their precious religion is false. They have already proven that they won't be honest, they won't change on this, and you risk so much if you decide to open your mouth.

You may already have raised a red flag. All the websites you visit on BYU networks could be monitored. As much as you'd like to have a support group (and probably need one) you need to be super careful. I suggest you email some of the admins to get contact info of fellow men who are BYU alumni who can be a support network for you. For starts I'm thinking in particular of a U of U med school professor that I used to serve in a Bishopric with who is a BYU grad and now an exmo. I'm sure he'd willingly help you.

I graduated from BYU recently and I had to play the game for a long time.

My advice: Be involved as little as possible. You can always say that you're studying for exams. As a pre-med I'm sure you're busy. You're married so you don't have to turn down all the stupid singles activities.
My last year at BYU was very hard. I attended church and paid tithing, but inside I was screaming. I smiled at the bishop and my fellow members and I don't think they thought I was struggling. They never asked, I never talked about it. I'm sure if I didn't attend, it'd be a different story. The only thing I did, which wasn't usual - I turned down my calling. I said I was overwhelmed with school work.

Last thing. Remember that your marriage goes above all. It's not
GOD
CHURCH
MARRIAGE

Nevermo here so my advice may not be valid...as much as it will hurt keep giving them money. No one can argue with a tithe record.

Mighty Buffalo:

Since you “hinted” at separation from the church in your application statement did you share this statement with BYU pre-med advisors and profs who wrote letters for you? This may already be a problem.

The stain from the church is already in your application, credentials and your life. It will have to be dealt with in some form or another at all your interviews. But dude I am 70 years old. The world of medicine is a lot more confrontational and many academic MD’s carry chips on their shoulder. Admissions committees have far more applicants than positions and may not hesitate to bounce your ass around. They may even have an axe to grind with the church themselves. So plan #1 is shut the fuck up to your bishop and frankly to your wife. Plan#2. Keep her uterus empty. We had two in med school and third in residency. Plan#3 is have a plan B in case you get no interviews or admissions. Plan #4 Widen your applications- public and private schools. Most state schools will have a predominance of in-state students but other than the cost applications are just that. Private schools like to bring in from four corners because they want to see more applications.

Do you understand plans 1-4????Sorry for the lateness if this. I was officiating a football game two hours from my home.

Gatorman

gatorman Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Mighty Buffalo:
>
> Since you “hinted” at separation from the
> church in your application statement did you share
> this statement with BYU pre-med advisors and profs
> who wrote letters for you? This may already be a
> problem.
>
> The stain from the church is already in your
> application, credentials and your life. It will
> have to be dealt with in some form or another at
> all your interviews. But dude I am 70 years old.
> The world of medicine is a lot more
> confrontational and many academic MD’s carry
> chips on their shoulder. Admissions committees
> have far more applicants than positions and may
> not hesitate to bounce your ass around. They may
> even have an axe to grind with the church
> themselves. So plan #1 is shut the fuck up to your
> bishop and frankly to your wife. Plan#2. Keep her
> uterus empty. We had two in med school and third
> in residency. Plan#3 is have a plan B in case you
> get no interviews or admissions. Plan #4 Widen
> your applications- public and private schools.
> Most state schools will have a predominance of
> in-state students but other than the cost
> applications are just that. Private schools like
> to bring in from four corners because they want to
> see more applications.
>
> Do you understand plans 1-4????Sorry for the
> lateness if this. I was officiating a football
> game two hours from my home.
>
> Gatorman

I agree regarding offspring. We had one late in residency and one in fellowship, and even then it was barely manageable. Kid #1 was conceived at the time he was because wife was experiencing a break in the worst of CF symptoms. #2 was a surprise.

Gatorman (and anyone else still reading),

When I say I hinted at a separation, I mean in secondary applications. The dreaded personal statement that I consulted with many people on was pretty much void of all things spiritual. No one at BYU has seen the others. Even if they did, they were subtle enough that a mormon would probably think I have a unique opinion, non-mormons would be willing to ask me about it (hopefully, so that I can dive in depth if need be).

Luckily my wife and I aren't CLOSE to having kids yet. We put the IUD in her for a damn good reason! Gatorman, you are a good man for putting up with those kids through med school. DOn't know if I could handle that. Got a good back-up plan and such too. Hopefully won't need it. I applied to over 30 schools with a 509 on the MCAT and a 3.71 GPA. We'll see how it goes....

mightybuffalo

Just keep it away from church folks. Graduate. Fixed that.

For your wife? Spend the rest of this year being the best husband and friend you can be. Do something every day that is unexpected and shows her how special she is to you. Get her to fall so in love with you by your actions and tenderness. Be authentic. Truly believe in what you do. Work hard at it.

Then, when you eventually take your stand, she may very well choose your love over the cult. If she doesn't, it will nearly kill you. But, you will know you gave your all.

mightybuffalo,

You are 6 months from graduating as a pre-med student. Don't say anything about it now until you graduate because you worked too hard to let the church take away your degree. Think about medical school. Once you get your degree and transcripts from BYU, you can trash the church altogether because by then, you'd be long gone and moving on to better things in medical school.

One advice I would like to give you, is to take your wife with you when you are ready to open up about your doubts and problems with the church and have her sit in and listen to the conversation. Lee Baker did this and that was not only how their marriage survived, but she also came to see the church for what it was for and left with him.

I once thought I was "extremely happily married" but hated the church and my career and was depressed. Finally gave up church and career and good money.

Then the threats of divorce came.

So maybe if your wife has the hope of big money from you being an MD, you can get away with expressing your doubts. But if you don't come up with the cash, good luck.


Trust no one.

Reality sucks. Which is why so many remain in denial.

Just for fun, tell your wife you think you would hate being an MD, but would rather be a janitor. See how that goes.

If she is excited for you being happy in your career, then she would be excited if you were happier outside the church, and you can share more about that.

Return and report.

I wonder if you could find a different church, get an eccleasistical endorcement from the minister and get an attorney. Approach your bishop with both the endorcement and the attorney and tell him you want out of the church, but to finish your degree and get in to medical school. Tell him that you will play nice if he will play nice, and that you're really not looking to stir up any emberrasment for the church, but that you're not going to back down, even if you need to defend your right to switch religions in court and in front of the media. Remind him that surely you can't be the only one in your situation and that the world is watching.

I think that allowing eccleasiastical endorcements from other religions for non-members to get in to BYU and to continue to attend there, is the weak point for the church. They can enforce standards of behavior which you can adhere to as a non-member. I don't think it's legal to discriminate based on your religious beliefs alone. The act of resigning your church membership alone can't be considered (outside of the church, ie: courts of law), to be an honor code violation. The whole "only true church" thing can't be relevant in a court of law. I can't imagine any legal arguement that would hold up in court that could require you to hold any specific beliefs, to attend a college, especially when there are clear exemptions for others. Tell the church leaders and the media that you refuse to be dishonest about what you believe, and that you shouldn't be discriminated against for that.



Edited 3 time(s). Last edit at 10/17/2017 11:30AM by azsteve.

It doesn't work that way. Once you are a Mormon at BYU, you may not leave the LDS church without consequence. With a diploma and medical school admission in play, it doesn't make any sense to do this.

At one time, black skin alone was cause enough to refuse giving a man the priesthood. That has changed. The church now has to accept gay scout leaders. They even changed their eternal endowment ceremony to remove the blood oaths. It used to be that the very act of resigning from the church was valid cause for excommunication. The church doesn't make these changes because they suddenly become nice guys. When the court ordered payouts and emberracements become intolerable for the church, they buckle. Enough peolple just need to have the balls to sue the church first, before it happens. To say "it doesn't work that way" is naive. It can and should, and will work that way. It's just a matter of when. The church's first black eye over the matter can happen any time now. Having resigned from the church myself decades ago, I can see clearly now from the view of an average non-member that what the church is doing in this regard is fucking outrageous and beyond any reason, legal or otherwise. It needs to stop.



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 10/17/2017 11:47AM by azsteve.

If enough BYU students disillusioned with the church were to take the action recommended by AZ steve, it's conceivable that change for the better might be effected over the course of time; there's no guarantee, but the administration and the church higher-ups might possibly eventually adjust the policy. They also might not. Even if they did, it wouldn't happen at any time soon.

MightyBuffalo is not in a great position to take one for the team, so to speak. He needs to complete his undergraduate degree this academic year so that he can get into med school ASAP. It's not in his best interest to take a stand on principle. If it were a battle he really wanted to fight, I'd be with him in spirit, but he just wants to get into and out of medical school so that he can begin his real life.

So here's an interesting update.

First of all, thanks for the comments everyone. Good to know others have been through the same thing. It's been weird.

Anyways, my Bishop was released on Sunday! What a miracle haha. Ironically, for his departing talk, he mentioned meeting recently with a "troubled man" in our ward and continued to rag on doubt. Said that when doubts come, the real question is whether or not we trust God above all else. I smiled because for once in my life it feels like I am trusting God.
My wife even recognized he was talking about me, she was actually more offended by it than I was! Long story short, not gonna have to worry about meeting with the new bishop. Planning on lying low till I'm outta here.

I also brought up some things with the wifey. I was quite distraught explaining things to her and she took it amazingly. Reassured me that nothing I said could ever break her testimony, but calmly listened to it all. At first she gave a few rebuttals. Then those stopped and she kept saying, yeah I can't explain that one. We'll see where this goes but I am taking it EXTREMELY slow. She's an amazing wife. Don't want to screw this up.

buffalo

It sounds like you're in a good place, Buffalo. I wish you all the luck in the world on both professional and personal fronts. Please keep the folks at RFM posted.

Thanks for checking back in! What a stroke of luck to get a new bishop. Hang in there, it won't be much longer until you graduate. Do update us on your medical school admissions process. We love to see exmos succeed!

I am a BYU grad, RM, etc. You would be surprised how your wife will eventually come along. My oldest daughter and her husband are both BYU Masters level grads, and they were as Mormon as you could possibly. Both now have left the church post BYU 8 years citing the dark history of the church, money laundering, etc. Lots of people leaving these days. Not hard to convince people that it's a cult. Congrats on you figuring it out before it sucked your adult life away.

Yay! And time really is on your side, tortoise. So happy things are going this way for you.

At times you sure feel like your gonna blow if you don't say something...please don't even talk to your wife if nothing you can say will shake her testimony...I've been amazed to read how many we're side swiped by a spouse needing support who goes to bish...SP or even girl friend who spills it all over creation..above all else Mormons love gossip...let it ride till you have the paper...dammed if I wanna read here about may that they nailed your ass and what to do about it...I'm sure she's a great woman...but ...also be aware there are aholes who skulk these boards

as one that has been here for a couple of decades, DO keep your head down till you graduate. In the big picture, it just isn't that much time. Once you are free and clear and ready to talk more to your wife please think about showing her the essays. They are straight off lds.org so she can't argue about the facts. This one speaks to many women and blows the whole "Joe and Emma a Love Story" crap they teach out of the water.

Plural Marriage in Kirtland and Nauvoo
https://www.lds.org/topics/plural-marriage-in-kirtland-and-nauvoo?lang=eng

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Joseph_Smith%27s_wives
Sealed to wife, Emma, 28 May 1843

Emma is way down the list of women who were sealed to him. Strange no? He slipped her in between teenagers.