Remember my SIL who last summer got engaged after only 3 weeks of dating - to a guy she met at a Single Adult dance? And then eloped with him 2 months later, while they were supposedly waiting for their temple divorces to come through? She's 43 and the mother of 3 young kids, he's 48.

Well, I went to a family party over the weekend and mentioned to the woman (Joan) who organized it that I was surprised that SIL and her new husband weren't there, because her three kids were. Joan said SIL couldn't make it because she was attending a seminar her new husband told her she needed to take to make her a better person. Further research uncovered that it was an Impact Training seminar. I read their website and found information about it on Rick Ross' cult watch website. It sounds like it ranges from mildly helpful to extremely dangerous and meanwhile, it's time consuming and expensive. I'm also concerned that at a certain level, members are expected to recruit and that SIL and her DH will try to drag more members of our family into this training. I was wondering if anyone here had any experience with this program?

My father felt it was the way to save me from myself. I was 14 going on 15 and yes it was time consuming and expensive. There's nothing to fear if the attendee is a strong minded individual. For people with real emotional issues it can be tough.

It's something like a military boot camp functionally. Tear someone down emotionally then build them back up, better.

The only positive thing I gained from the experience was the encouragement to take responsibility for myself. That's the gist of the final segment. If you want something, go get it.

Attendees are encouraged to recruit but it's not as aggressive as a church. I would hesitate to call it cultish. There's a lot of late nights, emotional and mental wearing down, crying, divulgence of embarrassing personal issues in a public forum. I would recommend against it for all but the most mentally stable.

Not all cults are religious or centered around compounds. Some are right there out in the open, like "trainings." I was in the granddaddy of the modern incarnation, est. Very cultish, no doubt about it. Funny, when I moved back to my home state and returned to my first SM meeting in years, I found the same thing: pay your tithing (buy more seminars) and be a missionary (bring guests)!

I also ultimately wished I had spend all that dough and time on good therapy. For $1500 (as noted in a post below) you could pay for the copays for 60 sessions of one-on-one therapy tailored to you alone.

All these "trainings" are fantastic--as money makers for their founders. C'mom guys, just count how many other saps are paying $500 to $750 to sit in that big convention ballroom with you. The profits are excessive, just like the other cults we know of.

I know of some distance relatives in Utah/Idaho who got involved. They tried to recruit my sister. They were a bit pushy about it.

I also know about Life Spring....another build you up/take your money group in the early 70s. My yoga teacher and her husband got involved.... he ended up quitting job as principal at a elementary school.......and getting a divorce.

IF you're looking for something and have money it can change your life..... :)

These groups scare me.
K

All those that were outside the church, anyway. I had understood that TSCC believed that all a member needed was to live the Gospel to be the best they could be (short of joining the army ...)

He told SIL “she needed to take [the seminar] to make her a better person”?! Say WHAT?! This is scary and creepy!

What I hear DH saying is, "Wifey, you go fix you so *I* don't have to look at and address MY personal issues.” This already is not a healthy marriage!

Also, like AnonyMs, I don't trust these groups. They create emotional vulnerability and susceptibility to suggestion, and then input their agenda. Even if that agenda is well-meaning and helpful to some people, it is risky and sometimes harmful to others.

Depending on your relationship with SIL, see if you might have a chance to “debrief” her after the seminar.

Good luck, CA girl. You are kind to care about your SIL. Let us know what happens.

We were heavily involved in Impact for a number of years, helped in the trainings, etc.

Pros: Can be instrumental in helping people see and address their personal issues.

Cons: The leaders, the Burgers, have major financial ethics issues. Impact is a HUGE cash cow and it's clear money is their main focus. Heavy pressure is put on participants to recruit others.

On balance: look somewhere else

Odd timing that you mention this today. Yesterday in church the bishop read the standard letter again about the dangers of these types of organizations. While they may be dangerous, each of the issues noted in the letter are also present in the mormon church. I guess they don't like competition.

competing information is self-serving for the church, the statement could be useful for other LDS family members to help keep THEM out of it.

To the original poster: I would be concerned about this group, too. Ending up on Rick Ross's site isn't a GOOD sign. And frankly, your SIL sounds a little bit impulsive, getting married so quickly. But I also wouldn't set up to get SIL out of the group. Maybe just educate yourself and ask her a lot of questions.

I'd become concerned if she doesn't sound like herself anymore. But honestly, what can you do about it? I recommend Steven Hassan's book Combatting CUlt Mind Control, and he has was he calls "mini-interventions" that might be helpful. Just be there for her and encourage independent thinking.

Your SIL doesn't know this guy well enough. Big red flags are waving all over the place! (I used to be co-chairman of the LDS Regional Singles)

Talk to your SIL! Not about impact training, but about her new husband. Ask her this key question: "What was the reason he got divorced?"

If he is just a looser, she will come out of this OK, get a quickie divorce, and will look at it as a temporary lapse in good judgment. She must hang onto her money, her house, her job, etc. This seems like a "fling" that has the moral approval of a marriage certificate. Her children will not be too damaged by this.

BUT--if she gets herself and her children sealed for eternity in the temple to this guy, she will become his "possesion" (to use the word GBH used in reference to a wife) and she will be in too deep to escape. Then things will get really ugly. This happened to me, and it ruined my life! (Long story)

I say, yes to any group therapy which might give a person insight. Yes to any tutorial that encourages a person to be independent. This might actually help your SIL!

But, no, no, no, no to the temple marriage, unti they have been married at least two years--what a normal courtship/dating period is in the real world.

who married to try to stay true to the gospel and after 2 kids, 15 years of marriage and several affairs realized she couldn't live a lie. SIL hasn't met the ex wife but has seen her and her partner at the kids sports events. New husband tells a conflicting story about how they were best friends and only broke up because she just couldn't make it work with a man. Then he says the break up was so bitter that she told lies to CPS about him and now he's on restricted visitation with the kids. A friend of mine that works with another government agency related to CPS says that the people over there are very, very committed to fairness and the truth and never restrict visitation without convincing proof that it is necessary i.e. they'd never believe a lying spouse. SIL, of course, took her new sweetheart at his word and didn't even research the story before she moved him in with her three children. (See car crash comment below :(

I guess I'll just keep an eye on the situation. She's very much the sort of person who can't say no (her quickie marriage being exhibit A). That concerns me. I'll encourage anyone she may try to recruit to do some research on the internet before they commit. At least I'll have some sites to send them to and some things for them to consider that you all have mentioned.

And her husband does concern me because it seems like he's telling her a lot of what she wants to hear. Very ingratiating. But then he's also trying to change her into what he wants her to be. My other SIL (her sister) chewed her out recently for ignoring her kids because she wants to play the honeymooner. The oldest is always stuck babysitting so Mom and Dad can do stuff alone. Apparently she lost her 3 year old recently - a neighbor found him wandering around and brought him back. She hadn't even noticed he was gone - too busy with her new love.

Sometimes family is more like watching a car crash in slow motion than it's portrayed in those Mormon ads.

Though most divorces are classed as "irreconcilable differences" or no-fault, there might be more information. Everyone is free to go read the public records.

My fanatic Mormon SIL was advised by friends to read the divorce records of her much-older fiance. She did, and there was spousal abuse, with witnesses. Since her fiance was a doctor, good looking, rich, and a High Priest on the Stake High Council, she married him anyway.

When he started beating my SIL and being mean to her children, all the kids moved out of the house (which was what her husband wanted). They hated this man, and wouldn't see or talk to him. My SIL and her wife-beater husband went on a mission, then she divorced him, but then she took him back and they went on two more missions. At my FIL's funeral, she bragged about how she and her doctor husband had traveled "all over the world" for the church. That was what she really wanted--and the price was losing her children.

To my son "BR.Vreeland" and in response to this forum about Impact. Approx a year ago. Yeah I ran across it through a friend who noticed it. It was good to see that you acknowledged something positive out of it. You hadn't shared that with me directly before. So it was a bit refreshing to see of your honest thoughts. There certainly would be more if you had done it at an older age and had repeated it in volunteerism as a staffer. You were quite young but you met by interview/exception the criteria of a very bright intelligent 14yr old beyond their now 18yr old requirement (16 at the time) ... I think largely because of your tremendous reading practices over the years. Literacy and being able to connect the dots is largely tied to EDUCATION.

You may not know this but your GPA Henson finished only the first level with your aunt Debbie (Quest)....well he was quite inspired at the time (also a great study/reader) enough to take it to his peers at his employer (AAI) and encourage others about it. Why? Because he took in the overall scope of realizing the distress of shame and child abuse. Permission to "come out" about ones ailments. The unlayering of the onion of abuse, instability, fear, ptsd, etc symptoms. It's all education for healing and bringing one to awareness. That's all it is....yet highly dynamic. There is no silver bullet, pill, program that can right our ailments without applying the learned principles learned along our path in life. There is a multiple ingredient recipe for workable balanced solutions...and Impact continues to have my endorsement as do other educational programs that are affordable and worthwhile in efforts as well. There are MANY. Unfortunately many are too expensive for the average. In some cases in patient or even out patient in THOUSANDs of $ in enrollment costs. Much more than the Impact types.

BTW....the program averages about 150hrs in totality of all three levels. $1500. Not much when one considers the benefits and then being able to go back and volunteer/give back (as I have done numerous times), practice, and continue to retrain the brain. I see it as moving towards healing and freedom. My particular circumstances allowed me to repeat, pick up more, give back as I continue to do, yet at the time I still had connection to some old influential relationships of dysfunction and shame/negativity. The other element I was unaware of at the time in the early 90s was that I was in serious prediabetic condition (later revealed in 2004). Untreated off the charts genetic cholesterol & triglycerides damaging the pancreas. Improper nutrition and poor exercise habits. Affecting depression and judgement, mood, brain chemistry, etc.

MORE OFTEN than not....the mentally unstable (simple depression included) are in need of taking things down in this form of group therapy...much cheaper than treating only with drugs, incarceration, steeped in shame and addictions. So I also do embrace the notion that our perceptions and self identity can be enhanced by letting it out having permission in a confidential enviroment...not posted to facebook/internet or in the newspaper. People may violate the rules...but the benefits far outweigh the money/effort spent/and any perceived risks....at the end of the day. A great program being around for nearly 25yrs now. Haans Berger was my primary trainer. It was very inspirational, revealing, and powerful with plenty of AHAs. Nothing is perfect and you only get out of something what you put into it in personal efforts. USE IT OR LOSE IT. My opinion. "I AM A WHOLE FREE GIVING AND LOVING MAN" LO #56 1992. Check the following two links that is authentic for those that engage the processes entirely/completely:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HehMDlMY5ug&feature=player_embedded#!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Xasi1g8IRSk&feature=player_embedded

Further...I am personally aware that world renown Elizabeth Kubler-Ross (who brought "Hospice" to this country known as the "Death and Dying Lady").... previously ran a very much similar program, in fact almost identical to Impact processes/format at her Head Waters,VA farm back in the '90s before her passing..... I know of it's content as well due to the "Parade" magazine writing a detailed article on it by a participant/newswriter. I've been in touch with her son who continues her foundation out of Scottsdale, AZ. It is ALSO interesting to note that the book "Homecoming" by John Bradshaw essentially addresses the same principles of shame and various addictions/child abuse...during the first of three levels at Impact (Quest). In my recoveries and discovering love, forgiveness, freedom...I've used all three resources in an overall recipe for wellness of body mind and spirit.

Mark Vreeland Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> BTW....the program averages about 150hrs in
> totality of all three levels. $1500. Not much when
> one considers the benefits and then being able to
> go back and volunteer/give back (as I have done
> numerous times), practice, and continue to retrain
> the brain. I see it as moving towards healing and
> freedom. My particular circumstances allowed me to
> repeat, pick up more, give back as I continue to
> do, yet at the time I still had connection to some
> old influential relationships of dysfunction and
> shame/negativity.

Sounds like $c!3ntlgy. Do they offer free personality tests?

I don't see anything redemptive, theraputic or beneficial in group shaming systems. It says a lot about you that you do.

Ummm, whoa.

I would hesitate, usually, to step in between a man and his son, but as the last post above me sounds more troll-like than caring dad-like, I am gonna do it just this once.

Good for you that it worked for you, dad. Good for you that you think you got out of it what you put into it. Good for you that you feel it is better than any other intervention program, and good for you you feel you are a better person for it. Good for you that you think it is inexpensive and a good thing to spend money on.

Problem is, your son apparently does not feel the same way about it all as you do, and for some reason, that fact appears to be a huge problem for you. And I'm just gonna say that the fact that you seem upset that your son does not share your opinion, and furthermore that you seem intent on punishing him for that fact, is YOUR problem, not his.

His experience with the group has just as much validity as yours. His feelings about the group matter just as much as yours. His statements about it have just as much truth as yours. And his opinion about it has just as much validity as yours. Only I tend to trust his more, because of the way he chose to express all that. Plus he did not just call you out on a public forum and disrespect you, by name.

His way allowed that he might be wrong about it. Your way is saying he is not allowed to feel any way but your way about it. Not very convincing to me, and probably not to anyone else here. Your words make me think you sell this stuff to others, or have some sort of vested interest in this program doing well, ie: you profit from it.

Is that true? If not, I apologize for misunderstanding what I feel you projecting about yourself, from your statements.

Two different people, two different opinions about the same thing. Wow. Nothing to start WWIII over. Is it?

It's ok to say I did this and it helped me. Fine. But whay in the world would you come here and embarass him that way?

What does that show us? Nothing---except that this program you recommend simply does not work, at all.

If it did, you'd be a much better man and actually act like one. Which I presume means not bullying your son in public.


Sorry Br. Vreeland, dude, whoever you are. I hate bullies, and just could not keep my mouth shut on this one.

I did. I even report posts that I'm unsure about. I figure that Susan I/S has been doing this long enough that she can make the correct call. :-)

I saw it just as his point of view.

And BTW, I'm very leery of Impact, Landmark, and all those types of groups.

He's one of Impact's most famous.. err, infamous success stories.

My daughter, who is now 27, and I did the Harmony Training, now known as The Great Life Foundation, in SLC in 2003. It was scary and exciting and we both loved it. I was still TBM at the time, she was as well, although she was inactive at the time. I felt that it was just the thing that I needed in my life. The cost seemed reasonable to me for the amount of time involved, and the wonderful experiences we had. It was challenging on so many levels, and helped me regain alot of the confidence I had lost after divorce and losing my job, both in a short space of time.

Like most things, it's probably not for everyone. Some people dropped out at various times during the program, which lasted about 2 months altogether as I recall.

To date, we are the only ones in the family who have managed to wake up from the slumber that is belief in the Mormon hoax. I'm not necessarily attributing that to having been through the impact training, because it may just be that we are more adventurous than the rest of the family and are more willing to try new things and to question the status quo. But I do know that going through the training was a wonderful experience for me.

hhhhhhhmmmmmmm interesting that just because a poster has a positive opinion of something that disagrees with another poster he is labeled a troll??????? WTF people! I didn't see anything in his post that indicated he was trying to start a fight with his son or even that he invalidated his son's experience. Just that he was glad his son said he had gotten something good out of it.

I am also an Impact Graduate. I did the Impact training about a year and a half ago, however, I had done a similar training about 18 years prior to that. Both were fantastic IMO. They are very much like the Dr. Phil Get Real Trainings. And very much like the training Gene Simmons (of KISS) and Shannon Tweed did just this summer prior to getting married. It was one of the episodes on Gene Simmons Family Jewels.

I find nothing cultish about Impact, you go, yo do your training, you live your life. BTW it was life altering for me 18 years ago and was a great reminder for me a year and a half ago. I do believe what happens with a lot of people is that they have found the training to be incredibly useful. When they see other people engaging in destructive behavior, mentally or physically, they will try to 'recruit' them into the training.

It's just that as humans, we want to share with others that which we have found to be useful. I tell people to go to my mechanic all the time, he charges a hella lot more than Impact, but his services are useful and I trust him. This 'training' is just a class, albeit an intense class. Worth every penny and minute IMO. Just sayin'.

My point is that board members are free to report (or not report) posts as we see fit. When in doubt, I report. There were two aspects of the post in question that bothered me. But again, it's not my call.

The difference, of course, being that Beatnik did not come across as an arrogant ass attempting to belittle or correct his/her offspring in public. Beatnik's comments were personal and positive. If you can't tell the difference between the two posts I'd say that's your issue, not anyone else's.

bigred Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> They are very much like the Dr. Phil Get Real Trainings.

http://everydaypsychology.com/2008/01/is-dr-phil-actually-psychologist.html#.TsU7B3FTUl8

"Dr. Phil is in the entertainment business and the field of pop-psychology."

"He was in fact disciplined by the Texas Board of Psychology in 1989, and it appears that he may have "retired" his license, rather than responding to their disciplinary requirements."

"He practices pop-psychology and entertainment, and people get to choose whether or not to watch."

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Phil_McGraw
"In 1983, McGraw and his father joined Thelma Box, a successful Texas businesswoman, in presenting "Pathways" seminars, "an experience-based training which allows individuals to achieve and create their own results."[11] Critics claim that many of the "phrases and the terminology and the quaint sayings" used by McGraw on the Oprah and Dr. Phil shows were coined by Box and presented by McGraw in this seminar. McGraw admits that some of the material from Life Strategies, his first best-seller, is taken directly from the Pathways seminar. However, he has never mentioned Box or her contributions to his success in any of his books or TV shows."

"McGraw's advice and methods have drawn criticism from some fellow psychotherapists as well as from some laymen. McGraw's critics regard advice given by him to be at best simplistic, and at worst, ineffective."

Weird this resurrected - I originally posted it over a year ago.

Yeah, I saw that. I think that Mark Vreeland found it - possibly from searching for posts by his son or something and brought it to life again. In any case, I still think the core training is well worth it. I'm not sure how I feel about the additional trainings offered there. LMT1, LMT2 and LMT3 - (Life Mastery). I get that they (the LMT Trainings) are more about the money than anything. I am willing to be wrong about that and really can't judge since I have not done any of them. Just my gut feeling.

Now that a year has gone by, what does the SIL think of the training? Did she complete the 3 core trainings? Any new insights from you?