The post about saying no to callings remined me of what happened to my mother when the bishop would not release her after a request from both her and my father.

My mother was primary president when she got pregnant with her 5th child. Mom was 36, there were health situations and the doctor told her it was a high risk pregnancy, it would be touch and go carrying the baby to full term and it could risk her own life. If she was to go through with it she needed bed rest and less stress in her life. Mom's last two pregnancies were also difficult. I was number 4. With me she was on complete bed rest and taking medicine to help keep me inside. With the brother just older than me it was the same story, but he came a month early and both he and mom almost died. So this preganacy was serious, but they believed that what God willed to happen with the baby would happen so the pregnancy was a go.

Dad and mom met with the bishop and told him that she was pregnant, what the doctor had said and that she needed to be released from primary president immediately. The bishop refused, saying that god wanted her to be in that calling and that he would protect her and that he expected her to keep doing her calling. This info is from my dad, mom doesn't like to talk about it. Dad told her to ignore the bishop and just not to show up, but brainwashed mom believed she had to do her calling. The next Sunday dad met with the bishop privately and told him to release her, she would not be doing the calling and that he, the bishop, was putting her life and the baby at risk. The bishop refused and started saying that god called her and if she didn't perform the calling god would punish her and our whole family.

Not sure how many Sundays later, but sure enough during primary where mom was performing her calling and expecting god to protect her she started cramping and bleeding. Her first counselor ran and got my dad from priesthood and they went to er where the fetus had to be removed from mom and she almost died as there was difficulty in stopping the bleeding. Mom was in the hospital for several days. The first counselor took us to her house after church and kept us with her until dad could make arrangemnts for us.

The very next Sunday mom was released from her calling. So it seems god meant for her to be primary president only until it caused her to miscarry. My father became inactive for several years. To my knowledge it did not shake my mother's testimony in the least. She likely would have miscarried the baby anyway, but it happened at church, during primary where she specifically asked to be released from.

It's hard to believe that she put this calling above her health and baby, but she believed that the bishop spoke for god. Mom never got pregnant again, which left me as the youngest.

How dare your dad endanger his eternal life and that of his family by allowing himself to be offended over such a petty matter. Your sibling obviously had a mission on the other side, and the bishop was spiritually sensitive enough to realize that. And your mom was wise enough to not question her priesthood leadership, because otherwise she wouldn't have been worthy of temple recommend.

Now I'm gonna go throw up.

I seriously hope you are being sarcastic, because if not, this is highly inappropriate. It's none of your GODDAMN BUSINESS how or why other people live their lives. Like I said, I hope you're joking. If you are, maybe try to be a little more clear. If not, take a message from Christ and quit casting stones at people.

That's why he said he had to go throw up now.

It is sometimes hard to tell when a poster is being sarcastic as it doesn't always translate well to every reader but in this case I know that kimball is employing sarcasm in his comments. He is actually commisserating with the OP about the situation.

Just a word to you though, tsaint: telling someone you don't know to "take a message from Christ" doesn't go over so well around here. There are many who don't believe in religion any more so it means nothing to them but also there is a board rule against "preaching" which means YOU can "take a message from Christ" but you may want to hold back on delivering one to other posters here.

To the OP, thanks for relating that horrible experience. It's yet another example of how fundamentalist attitudes and skewed perspectives can negatively affect entire families. I'm sorry your mom couldn't say no to an obviously blind bishop who was so far out of line. I'm glad your mom survived, literally. Too bad it didn't shake her faith at least enough to ask questions or to reject the power of that ignorant bishop.

Well said, duly noted. I apologize for the preaching. For the record, I consider myself atheist. The sarcasm can be hard to detect without the voice inflection. All the same, your criticism of my reaction was valid.

I agree with you that sarcasm is hard to read. I find I have to pay attention and get to know various posters and then you can pick up on the style. It's a good clue if you know someone is exmo, not mo, out of the church for yrs or just leaving, and what their religious beliefs or positions are. That's a lot to ask of readers, though, so yeah, when someone mentions a vomit reflex that's a good clue to sarcasm too. Knowing mo doctrine also helps a lot, as does realizing that many posters speak in their mo voice as a technique to point out ridiculousness where they see it.

Sorry, didn't mean to preach at you myself. I just have a thing about explaining board rules. I've always been very rule-oriented, which is so deeply ingrained now that even therapy wouldn't help, I'm sure. I do try to work hard on not telling people what to do, though.

So, please excuse me for that. But still the point is valid, although I didn't mean to come across as critical.

Funny that you're atheist. By your comment, I took you for a Christian. :)

Yeah the last girl i dated had the same confusion about my atheism. I'm a semi-ex-mo. Haven't written 'the letter' and frankly feel like I shouldn't have to. But that's neither here nor there. Good advice about getting to know posters before spouting off. Kind of like people would if they were having a conversation in person ;)

I've been out of TSCC for about 3 years, rm, byu grad, etc, etc,

Anyway, i don't want to distract from the main message of this post. Thanks again for the advice, I hope we can all get to know each other and engage in interesting, helpful conversation.

Yeah, I learned that lesson once when I posted something starting with "To All Believers In Christ" and several people did not get the in-joke of it being the same as the famous David Whitmer testimony statement of the Book of Mormon.

I assumed too much and offended unintentionally.

Live and learn...

Anagrammy

Sorry, I think I was reading too much of Stake President Paternostre's blog before I wrote that. It was indeed laced with sarcasm. I sympathize with the highest regards, and hope other faithful mormons can learn an important lesson from your story.

That is so sad. And unfortunately, the arbitrary refusal to release or insistence to call people isn't uncommon. As a missionary I was slightly shocked to see the mission president organize transfers by practically shuffling cards with missionaries' pictures on them. When I saw ward callings implemented later, the method wasn't much different. I guess as a matter of practicality it would be difficult to specifically seek inspiration for each calling, but then why don't they admit that it's not inspiration? It's just like any other organization that needs to fill administrative positions.

It sounds like the bishop was on a power trip and simply didn't want to be told anything. He wanted to be the one to make the decision. And like religious dictators have done throughout history, used god as an excuse to oppress those who are simply trying to be faithful.

This is a horrible example of LDS abuse. Keep in mind, though, it wasn't God who ordered mom to keep doing church work that risked her life and her baby's life, it was the idiotic bishop who - like his church - completely invent unreasonable, irrational and harmful madates that have nothing to do with the Judeo-Christian God.

This is totally tragic. I'm having a hard time however connecting a calling with a miscarriage. Was she orded bedridden by the doctor and had to get up to fulfill her calling?

Ron

He said to do only a little very light housekeeping at most and not do any heavy lifting, running around, to avoid stress, and keep my feet up for much of each day.

LochNessie said:

"[MD said] If she was to go through with it [the pregnancy] she needed bed rest and less stress in her life."

For a bishop to ignore dr's orders is egregious behaviour, even for a jumped-up petty tyrant of a religious so-called leader. Did he even apologize or change his attitude from then on re other callings? I doubt it. His decision doesn't even follow Mormon teachings, in that the baby has to be born to complete the circle of PE/mortal existence/afterlife, no?

Too, many people easily disregard a miscarriage as not that big a deal. For most women and their spouses and families it is heartbreaking and the results eternal - it is still a life lost, whether in utero or after birth.

I too hope that more and more members come to see that major life choices are theirs to make and they do not have to blindly follow a fallible "leader". There is something wrong in a church that gives so much power to untrained people who may be singularly unsuited to the demands of the position. It may be hard for outsiders to figure out why members would "obey" no matter the personal consequences (unlike in Catholicism, for instance, as the Catholic posters have been telling us, where they apparently pick and choose what beliefs and practices and counsel they will or will not believe or follow). In Mormonism, and other like religious traditions (on the "fundy" side) once the member buys into the idea of being "obedient" they may go a long, long way down the wrong road without ever realizing that they can just say no and make their own choices.

Immediately after baptism, I was assigned to be a teacher in Primary and being a new member, unmarried/no kids, I found it chaotic and noisy and demanding (10 officially diagnosed hyperactive kids in my class, no help, and me with no experience and not knowing mo doctrine but finding myself expected to teach it). The only time any mo adult paid any attention to what was going on with me was when I took the kids outside one summer day and we did a communion lesson on the lawn, while the kids could run around to dissipate some of their abundant energy. Oh my - that is NOT ALLOWED. Instead, you must spend 2 hrs trying to squelch 10 hyper kids in a tiny classroom, where they learned nothing and wrecked the place such that I had to mop and vacuum after every class, adding to my already sweaty day. I never expected church meetings to end up in sweat and tears and, yes, sometimes blood.

Urg. Bad memories of unhappiness and stress.

I'd say a busy mom with a high-risk pregnancy in the midst of 2 hrs of total chaos and constant demands every Sunday at church should be given a break, from kids, from noise, from stress. Just like the doctor ordered.

Stupid, interfering, negligent so-called bishop.



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 05/27/2011 01:26PM by Nightingale.

Nightingale Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> I too hope that more and more members come to see that major life choices are theirs to make and they do not have to blindly follow a fallible "leader". There is something wrong in a church that gives so much power to untrained people who may be singularly unsuited to the demands of the position.

Loch Nessie's post is a good reminder that people should never stop thinking for themselves. It's okay, even desirable, to form your own opinion about things. It's okay to say a firm, "no" to those who do not have your best interests at heart.

It was bedrest and less stress. The only physical work she was to do was getting out of the bed to go to the bathroom. This was going to be hard enough with four kids. The two oldest were 12 and 11 though and the running of the house was basically put on their shoulders. We had a family meeting and we were told that mom had to stay in bed and we all needed to help out around the house. I was the youngest at 6, so we could take care ourselves quite a bit.

But..mom got up to go to church and run the primary. It absolutely was my mom's choice to do it. I wouldn't have, but she is very tbm and if the bishop told her to do it and that god would protect her she believed it. The bishop told her god didn't want her released.

Yes, there's no way to know if she would have carried to term even if she was released, but for my dad it was the church's fault. No questions. It happened DURING primary. It was actually a ward story that got rehashed every few years. "Sis. ______ started miscarrying during primary. Kids saw her covered with blood all over her skirt." Very knew that she wanted to be released and should have been home off her feet, and that she was only there because the bishop guilted her into it.

He should have released her even if she had only said she didn't want to o it anymore, but with the pregnancy situation she should have been released immediately.

How dare the bish misuse your mother's faith, her health, and the whole family! Shame on him!

On the off chance that the church does pan out to be true in the next life, keep this information so that we can file a wrongful death and class action lawsuit against Elohim for manslaughter, abuse, and severe child neglect.
He and his son think their @#$%& doesn’t stink, but have been abusing humanity since the beginning.

(This message brought to you by atheistic irony).

I'm very sorry to hear that this happened to you and your family, Lochnessie.
This church is just sociopathically ill. There are literally thousand who have had similar things happen (handcarts, etc). The only retribution you can mete out is to leave this church and let them know how screwed up they are.
Keep sharing your stories -- If you can keep just one soul from falling for this crap, how great will be their joy.

+1

Of course they would explain it away saying it was gawd's will, a trial, or that it would have happened anyway. It is dangerous to place trust in imaginary beings, and believe others have the approval or favor of imaginary beings to act on their behalf. This is an excellent example of why delusion is bad (I have found the same in my life), and why religion is not harmless or good. If you remove the magical in this situation, it was basically the word of a trained doctor versus a guy picked off the street to act as a proxy all-knowing tyrant, because he is THAT sure of his ability to channel the invisible. So, doctor versus random guy. Religion gets us to do things we would not normally do. Minus the magical, your mother would have chosen the doctor's advice of course. Religion got her to risk her life, and the life of her baby to please a myth. Religion IS dangerous, because it is the only delusion society accepts.

"Religion" (least of all LDS) is not the same as God. God didn't tell this woman to risk her life and the life of her baby; the Mormon bishop did.

Religion, and all gawds are manmade. Most religions think the other “bad” ones are not really listening to or directed by jeezus, but of course THEY are. This is just another necessary lie you have to tell yourself in order to believe. When any ecclesiastical person gives out what you consider bad advice THEY are automatically uninspired, satanic or speaking as a man, but of course YOU know the truth, and what the "real" jeezus or gawd is like. Trying to discern the will of, and speak for imaginary beings is delusion, and brings about confusion. Spare me your mental gymnastics. I am an atheist, and have heard your nonsense before.

I had never seriously considered that my brother, who was once a bishop, could do something like LochNessie posted, because he's really nice guy, but thinking about how he acts sometimes I now can. He's got a cool, deliberate "that's the way it goes" attitude, like he's following orders from a High Command who sees the Big Picture.
During wartime, orders are passed down that sometimes result in needless casualties, because the guys with the boots on the ground have information that the higher ups disregard. When the operation goes to hell, the higher ups are still in their HQ with warm beds & good food, while the grunts do the mud work and suffer. A lot of people in power positions (LDS in this example) see themselves as the senior officers with direct orders and full authority from the headquarters of The Absolute Supreme Commander. But mostly they're just making up the orders themselves.

from a calling.

You TELL the bish you will be resigning from the position as of (insert date), giving him sufficient time to find someone to fill the position.

This is such a sad posting. I am so sorry for your family that this happened to you. I can relate: I had to stay in bed with child #3 but as a nevermo my experience was totally different.

As the Director of Religious Education at our Parish (I'm Catholic), I was blessed to have the 'church ladies' descend on me: they cleaned my house, brought meals, and made sure my older kids had rides to and from school. They also called on a regular basis to make sure I had what I needed.

I ended up having to leave the job, but the ladies did not leave me. They stayed the course and were all present, front and center at my daughter's Baptism when she arrived safely (albeit several weeks early).

It's not God who willed this, it is the people who were serving LDS, Inc., rather than it's people who participated in this. Again, I am so sorry this happened to your family.

Wife (at the time) was 7 months pregnant, warned to slow down or else.

Did LDS Inc. care? No, they had jobs to do and statistics to make.

I couldn't believe it. Wife finally exercised her free will and said no f*****g way would she endanger her beloved baby.

Today I probably have my wonderful 21 year old daughter alive because we told LDS Inc. to shove it over their stupid callings.

Being willing to exploit us to the point of killing my daughter was a definite wake up call for both of us. If this kind of immorality doesn't make you wake up and smell the coffee then I don't know what will.

That is such a sad, sad story. I think with bedrest she very well could have carried it long enough to survive. Afterall, the Dr. did not give a doomsday report-only that it was high risk. I am so sorry she put her church above her duty to child. I know your dad tried hard to get her released. How dumb can Mormons be???? They seem tethered to the leaders like a parent who puts a child on a leash.(they will not get away from me!) Again, I am very sorry about the loss of the sibling you never got to know.